Virgin 737 in near miss
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Capt Claret
It is standard procedure to stand down the ATC who is involved in an incident, and is meant to be devoid of any blame at the outset, it is just procedure. Any RA is classified as an incident, therefore the stand-down. This, of course, is not to say that I don't disagree that ATCs will be made scapeoats ... the design of the system is perfect for that.
John Anderson quoted in the article above
Hmmm ... obviously our honourable Deputy PM doesn't understand that this is exactly the airspace (Class E) that Civil Air has been taking a stand against. And yes, it is controlled. For IFR. Not VFR. Somebody should feed him the facts.
And.....
Ummm... not the Tower as such, but how did solve the situation? It was the third aircraft we should be concerned with here!!
Nice work.
It is standard procedure to stand down the ATC who is involved in an incident, and is meant to be devoid of any blame at the outset, it is just procedure. Any RA is classified as an incident, therefore the stand-down. This, of course, is not to say that I don't disagree that ATCs will be made scapeoats ... the design of the system is perfect for that.
John Anderson quoted in the article above
"This happened in controlled airspace, all the scaremongering that Ted Lang's been engaging in has been about uncontrolled airspace."
And.....
"The aircraft, both of them were in contact with the tower."
Nice work.
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".......course we could maintain F180 till 40 Nm and then descend A into C"
Long time since I've seen a decent sideslip from flight levels - Thumpas used to do a beautiful job on 500 feet final.
This NAS, it's really all a matter of ATTITUDE.
(with apologies to our friends in the Regionals - still fighting for you K.M.)
Long time since I've seen a decent sideslip from flight levels - Thumpas used to do a beautiful job on 500 feet final.
This NAS, it's really all a matter of ATTITUDE.
(with apologies to our friends in the Regionals - still fighting for you K.M.)
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I was interested by Mr Andersons analogy to a Semi but I of course recognise that He should be looking at it from the Semi drivers position. in which case lets look at that analogy
The Virgin plane would be doing in excess of 200 knots so lets round that to an equivalent of 400Km (probably more in fact).
Now with 20 seconds warning at about 4 times the max speed of the Semi that would equate to 5 seconds for the Semi.
this means that if a mini popped out of the fog in front of the semi he would have 5 seconds to see and avoid the mini or (if my math is right) about 140 metres.
Now a mini is relatively big for this comparison as you would see it straight away so perhaps we should liken it to a childs pedal car (much more emotive). Perhaps someone could point out to Mr Anderson that we currently have radio campaigns running about not pulling out infront of trucks because the accidents in this analogy are all too frequent.
All this from a low hours PPL who also doesn't like NAS because if it happens it could be me. Besides can anyone tell me who offers training yet apart from glossy brochures?
The Virgin plane would be doing in excess of 200 knots so lets round that to an equivalent of 400Km (probably more in fact).
Now with 20 seconds warning at about 4 times the max speed of the Semi that would equate to 5 seconds for the Semi.
this means that if a mini popped out of the fog in front of the semi he would have 5 seconds to see and avoid the mini or (if my math is right) about 140 metres.
Now a mini is relatively big for this comparison as you would see it straight away so perhaps we should liken it to a childs pedal car (much more emotive). Perhaps someone could point out to Mr Anderson that we currently have radio campaigns running about not pulling out infront of trucks because the accidents in this analogy are all too frequent.
All this from a low hours PPL who also doesn't like NAS because if it happens it could be me. Besides can anyone tell me who offers training yet apart from glossy brochures?
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"I don't know how close he was vertically, but he was at least 500 feet (150 metres) above me horizontally.
This is what the former "Air force transport pilot" involved in this said.
Can someone please explain?
This is what the former "Air force transport pilot" involved in this said.
Can someone please explain?
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Don't rip into the pilot. What was he doing wrong? He was flying in that old-fashioned airspace called NAS. How is he to know if his transponder is working (c'mon, any controller knows how often you have to ask for a modeC recycle)? He was using the system EXACTLY as envisioned by Dick.
The insinuation by both AsA mouthpiece, professional liar Richard Dudley, and the minister that the controller is a little to blame (what other interpretation of announcing 'controller stood down'??) is reprehensible. YOU MAKE ME SICK.
We tried, fellas, we tried.
The insinuation by both AsA mouthpiece, professional liar Richard Dudley, and the minister that the controller is a little to blame (what other interpretation of announcing 'controller stood down'??) is reprehensible. YOU MAKE ME SICK.
We tried, fellas, we tried.
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I think we all need to put some pressure on the "Duckhead" that has so blindly put this crazy system in place.......but I have an idea. Why don't we all ensure and infact pass on to ATC that we require descent profiles that keep us in class A & C airspace. Can you imagine the complaints being sent to Canberra re aircraft noise if we all join a holding pattern over the northern suburbs of Sydney. We start at FL200 and go round and round until we are at 3000 and can shoot the ILS.
Mighty hard on the poor ATCOs, but I'm sure they can help us out and publish a NOTAM requiring 60 mins Traffic holding.
Just a thought.
Mighty hard on the poor ATCOs, but I'm sure they can help us out and publish a NOTAM requiring 60 mins Traffic holding.
Just a thought.
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Virgin near miss a non event: pilot
" It's pretty much a non-event," John Knispel, a former air force transport pilot, said.
The Adelaide based citrus grower was flying from Loxton on the New South Wales border to Melbourne at 17,500 feet on approach to Essendon Airport when he was asked to turn right by air traffic control.
"The Virgin flight was on the same path and descending at about twice my speed and halted at 18,000 feet," he said.
He then continued his descent once we had moved and we resumed course, just like the way it is supposed to happen ...
it was all very relaxed and there was no panic or concern in anyone's voices.
" I didn't see the Virgin flight and dit not attempt to sight it ...
I was too busy concentrating on making sure I followed the traffic controller's directions.
" It's pretty much a non-event," John Knispel, a former air force transport pilot, said.
The Adelaide based citrus grower was flying from Loxton on the New South Wales border to Melbourne at 17,500 feet on approach to Essendon Airport when he was asked to turn right by air traffic control.
"The Virgin flight was on the same path and descending at about twice my speed and halted at 18,000 feet," he said.
He then continued his descent once we had moved and we resumed course, just like the way it is supposed to happen ...
it was all very relaxed and there was no panic or concern in anyone's voices.
" I didn't see the Virgin flight and dit not attempt to sight it ...
I was too busy concentrating on making sure I followed the traffic controller's directions.
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posted 4th December 2003 18:34 Heard on ABC Radio National in Darwin on the way home today (Thurs) that "an ATC controller has been stood down over the Virgin incident.
The Reverend
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To qoute Blastoid above:
It is standard procedure to stand down the ATC who is involved in an incident, and is meant to be devoid of any blame at the outset, it is just procedure. Any RA is classified as an incident, therefore the stand-down.
PPRuNette
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Hotdog
That quote from that post was not lost on all of us
Thanks for reiterating the point, seems some people choose not to read a thread thoroughly in order to push forth their own opinions.
Food for thought ladies and gents
GG
That quote from that post was not lost on all of us
Thanks for reiterating the point, seems some people choose not to read a thread thoroughly in order to push forth their own opinions.
Food for thought ladies and gents
GG
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Transcript of last night's 7:30 Report
Note that the last two lines of the transcript were spoken by John Anderson, but mistakenly not attributed to him:
"We are moving to a safer system, yes.
And I can assure you I'm flying just as freely as I always do, and not many people fly more than I do."
Note that the last two lines of the transcript were spoken by John Anderson, but mistakenly not attributed to him:
"We are moving to a safer system, yes.
And I can assure you I'm flying just as freely as I always do, and not many people fly more than I do."
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Fri "The Australian"
Air alert link to new rules
By Steve Creedy
December 05, 2003
Confusion over new airspace rules appears to have contributed to an incident near Melbourne in which a twin-engine Cessna came close enough to a Virgin Blue jet to activate a collision alarm.
Air traffic controllers and pilots yesterday claimed the incident backed up their safety fears about the new system, while the federal Government dismissed the complaints as scaremongering.
Ted Lang, president of air traffic controllers union Civil Air, said the incident was a significant breakdown in separation between the two aircraft and a direct result of the new airspace system.
"It's what we were forecasting and, within a week of it starting, it's happened and it's a commercial aeroplane," he said.
But Mr Lang was attacked by Transport Minister John Anderson for suggesting earlier that the two planes were within 20 seconds of a collision and had nearly hit each other. He described the near-collision claims as outrageous and said the Government would not have implemented an unsafe system.
Details obtained by The Australian confirm that Virgin flight DJ980, from the Gold Coast to Melbourne, was in no danger of an imminent collision.
While the vertical separation between the two planes was only 400-500ft - instead of the 1000ft minimum required - they were almost 2km apart horizontally and travelling in the same direction when the alarm was triggered.
However, the incident is being treated as a significant breach of separation standards by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau. An air traffic controller has been stood down by Air Services Australia, pending an investigation.
Sources said the twin-engine Cessna 421 was about 10 nautical miles northeast of Bendigo, operating in E class airspace at 17,500ft under visual flight rules, when the incident occurred.
Under the new rules, pilots of light planes do not require clearance to enter E class airspace but are required to have a working transponder - a device that informs air traffic control and other aircraft of the plane's position.
In this case, however, sources said the Cessna's transponder was on a setting that did not indicate height.
The Virgin crew received a resolution advisory - designed to help them avoid a collision - which told them not to descend. Under the previous system, the Cessna would have required clearance to enter the airspace and would have been separated from the Virgin jet.
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Air alert link to new rules
By Steve Creedy
December 05, 2003
Confusion over new airspace rules appears to have contributed to an incident near Melbourne in which a twin-engine Cessna came close enough to a Virgin Blue jet to activate a collision alarm.
Air traffic controllers and pilots yesterday claimed the incident backed up their safety fears about the new system, while the federal Government dismissed the complaints as scaremongering.
Ted Lang, president of air traffic controllers union Civil Air, said the incident was a significant breakdown in separation between the two aircraft and a direct result of the new airspace system.
"It's what we were forecasting and, within a week of it starting, it's happened and it's a commercial aeroplane," he said.
But Mr Lang was attacked by Transport Minister John Anderson for suggesting earlier that the two planes were within 20 seconds of a collision and had nearly hit each other. He described the near-collision claims as outrageous and said the Government would not have implemented an unsafe system.
Details obtained by The Australian confirm that Virgin flight DJ980, from the Gold Coast to Melbourne, was in no danger of an imminent collision.
While the vertical separation between the two planes was only 400-500ft - instead of the 1000ft minimum required - they were almost 2km apart horizontally and travelling in the same direction when the alarm was triggered.
However, the incident is being treated as a significant breach of separation standards by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau. An air traffic controller has been stood down by Air Services Australia, pending an investigation.
Sources said the twin-engine Cessna 421 was about 10 nautical miles northeast of Bendigo, operating in E class airspace at 17,500ft under visual flight rules, when the incident occurred.
Under the new rules, pilots of light planes do not require clearance to enter E class airspace but are required to have a working transponder - a device that informs air traffic control and other aircraft of the plane's position.
In this case, however, sources said the Cessna's transponder was on a setting that did not indicate height.
The Virgin crew received a resolution advisory - designed to help them avoid a collision - which told them not to descend. Under the previous system, the Cessna would have required clearance to enter the airspace and would have been separated from the Virgin jet.
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Personally I've not had an RA.
But then again, generally the TCAS has shown me the traffic long before I even get a TA. I would have an idea of where he/she is climbing/descending etc and adjust my rate of Climb/Descent so as to avoid a conflict and possible RA.
Very few RA's could be generated from lower speed traffic such as a Cessna twin without at least some other prior indication they are about.
Just a thought!
But then again, generally the TCAS has shown me the traffic long before I even get a TA. I would have an idea of where he/she is climbing/descending etc and adjust my rate of Climb/Descent so as to avoid a conflict and possible RA.
Very few RA's could be generated from lower speed traffic such as a Cessna twin without at least some other prior indication they are about.
Just a thought!
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ATC stand-down
So every time there's a TCAS-RA incident in class E, the ATC on duty is stood down for the investigation. I presume Airservices would take appropriate relief measures either calling in extra staff on overtime or traffic mitigation via holding or timed departure slots. This is supremely efficient.
It was mentioned yesterday in the senate that one of the supporters for the NAS was the RAAF. I am reliably informed that ain’t the case at the coal face for the vast majority. In fact RAAF pilots are still waiting for their ERC with the NAS airspace! The other interesting part of that argument is there are a lot (most) of Airforce aircraft that don’t have TCAS. Of course if there is an incident/accident then it will be the pilots fault for not seeing the threat so all the politicians can sleep easy at night.
I’m also informed that Saddam has been in contact with the ministers office asking where he can find a bunker as deep as his. The transport minister has become so defensive he is completely ineffectual and living in a world of denial. The job should go to the Senator who answered questions yesterday. He may be following the party line but at least he was rational.
Funny how it took one week for someone not professional enough to know how to operate their transponder to prove how many extra holes there are in the cheese now with NAS!
I’m also informed that Saddam has been in contact with the ministers office asking where he can find a bunker as deep as his. The transport minister has become so defensive he is completely ineffectual and living in a world of denial. The job should go to the Senator who answered questions yesterday. He may be following the party line but at least he was rational.
Funny how it took one week for someone not professional enough to know how to operate their transponder to prove how many extra holes there are in the cheese now with NAS!
Hey Duff Man. Surely this is the whole point? Before considering whether it's efficient let's consider whether it's safe!!
The ATCO - who from what I've seen so far did nothing wrong (and I know it's an assumption) - would probably be somewhat shaken and would probably - as I reckon I would - spend the rest of his/ her shift trying to decide what had happened prior to the inevitable interviews. This would obviously distract them from their primary task of keeping the little dots that represent up to 450 people apart from one another.
As one taxpayer, I am happy to spend x dollars to get a replacement ATCO out. Like the NAS SHOULD be, it's a question of safety before dollars.
It's normal procedure to stand the ATCO down - as much for their protection as for that of the travelling public.
Oh, and to quote someone else from another forum. Apologies to the person involved but it sums up the 7.30 Report's interview with the pilot concerned quite well.
And in response to that wonderful comment on the state of Civil Air Safety in Australia:
Nicely put.
The ATCO - who from what I've seen so far did nothing wrong (and I know it's an assumption) - would probably be somewhat shaken and would probably - as I reckon I would - spend the rest of his/ her shift trying to decide what had happened prior to the inevitable interviews. This would obviously distract them from their primary task of keeping the little dots that represent up to 450 people apart from one another.
As one taxpayer, I am happy to spend x dollars to get a replacement ATCO out. Like the NAS SHOULD be, it's a question of safety before dollars.
It's normal procedure to stand the ATCO down - as much for their protection as for that of the travelling public.
Oh, and to quote someone else from another forum. Apologies to the person involved but it sums up the 7.30 Report's interview with the pilot concerned quite well.
On ABC 7.30 report tonight the GA pilot involved went on to say that it wasn't very close or dangerous because "IT WASN'T LIKE FORMATION FLYING OR SIMULATED COMBAT."
And we are now teamed with this type of pilot to maintain our safety record.
Last edited by DirectAnywhere; 5th Dec 2003 at 05:59.