Virgin 737 in near miss
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Succatash, the operation of TCAS (both I AND II) is dependent on the "target" traffic having a mode C transponder operating. Earlier in the thread it was indicated that the 421's wasn't and it was only when he asked for an IFR upgrade that instructions to "ident" then select mode C were issued from ATC. It would have been then and only then that the VB aircraft would have gained SA on this guy 
Whilst he was legal to be there, good airmanship would dictate that it wasn't prudent, given the proximity to a busy terminal area and IFR tracks to said terminal.
Similarly, the dependence on the "see and avoid principal", which I will agree is completely flawed, even for individuals with Yeager-esque eyesight, was made a mockery of when the 421 pilot indicated that he had dropped that scan to follow the instructions issued by air traffic. ASA take note!
Whilst he was legal to be there, good airmanship would dictate that it wasn't prudent, given the proximity to a busy terminal area and IFR tracks to said terminal.
Similarly, the dependence on the "see and avoid principal", which I will agree is completely flawed, even for individuals with Yeager-esque eyesight, was made a mockery of when the 421 pilot indicated that he had dropped that scan to follow the instructions issued by air traffic. ASA take note!
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ozbiggles,
I certainly don't believe that the RAAF was a supporter of NAS. Take a look at the C130H. No TCAS, a good proportion of ops in the new class E airspace. How could they support the change? They do have skinpaint, but without TCAS (which NAS unfortunately seems to be predicated on) they are in a lose-lose situation. Not sure who in parliament said that but i disagree with their statement.
Only 3 of the RAAF aircraft types have TCAS (BBJ, Challenger, C130J), with all other types utilising Mk1 eyeball and aircraft radar. I cannot see how they supported the airspace changes with such poor odds.
With the new changes of military MBZ's changing to mil CTAF's in 2004 (no requirement to broadcast), it is an accident waiting to happen. Even in MBZ's at present we have enough problems, imagine what will happen when you don't even have to enter! Richmond is the perfect example with many Herc movements on weekends.
In my opinion i don't think the RAAF was a supporter of NAS in any way, shape or form.
I certainly don't believe that the RAAF was a supporter of NAS. Take a look at the C130H. No TCAS, a good proportion of ops in the new class E airspace. How could they support the change? They do have skinpaint, but without TCAS (which NAS unfortunately seems to be predicated on) they are in a lose-lose situation. Not sure who in parliament said that but i disagree with their statement.
Only 3 of the RAAF aircraft types have TCAS (BBJ, Challenger, C130J), with all other types utilising Mk1 eyeball and aircraft radar. I cannot see how they supported the airspace changes with such poor odds.
With the new changes of military MBZ's changing to mil CTAF's in 2004 (no requirement to broadcast), it is an accident waiting to happen. Even in MBZ's at present we have enough problems, imagine what will happen when you don't even have to enter! Richmond is the perfect example with many Herc movements on weekends.
In my opinion i don't think the RAAF was a supporter of NAS in any way, shape or form.
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Probably a bit like the Class G trial of a few years ago which the RAAF was also supposed to have supported. Only problem was they forgot to ask anyone who actually had to fly in it - I guess the 'support' came from a dusty corridor somewhere in Russell Offices.
Has anyone else noticed an increase in terminal area non-Mode-C TCAS returns in the past week or so? Hopefully just a coincidence.
Has anyone else noticed an increase in terminal area non-Mode-C TCAS returns in the past week or so? Hopefully just a coincidence.
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The KA350 at 32Sqn (NTA) also has TCAS Cougar and the aim has been to enforce its use as an SA builder rather than take the place of getting one's head out of the cockpit. Its a struggle, particularly with the spurious returns you get from non-mode C aircraft.
Apparently the military has voiced its concern (within the sponge, particularly DFS), but really, we have no-one to lobby for us at appropriate levels. My theory is that we're considered just another government body in this issue and we're to take the crumpet 'twixt the cheeks without blubbing.
Apparently the military has voiced its concern (within the sponge, particularly DFS), but really, we have no-one to lobby for us at appropriate levels. My theory is that we're considered just another government body in this issue and we're to take the crumpet 'twixt the cheeks without blubbing.
Cougar
The 'apparent' RAAF support for NAS comes about because the 'RAAF (very high up, one of)' had a rep on the board (I believe there was a board/commitee/something, it was all so hush hush for some strange reason wasn't it?!). The flying pilots however recieved their info packs a few days before the new world began and are still waiting for their ERC charts and for something all big modern aircraft have, TCAS (let alone EW kits!!!!).
There have always been bad/ignorant/unprofessional pilots flying. Over the years the system was designed to defend/protect against this threat. We now seem to be removing the system to save some people about a $1 a flight.
The 'apparent' RAAF support for NAS comes about because the 'RAAF (very high up, one of)' had a rep on the board (I believe there was a board/commitee/something, it was all so hush hush for some strange reason wasn't it?!). The flying pilots however recieved their info packs a few days before the new world began and are still waiting for their ERC charts and for something all big modern aircraft have, TCAS (let alone EW kits!!!!).
There have always been bad/ignorant/unprofessional pilots flying. Over the years the system was designed to defend/protect against this threat. We now seem to be removing the system to save some people about a $1 a flight.
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Im sure the RAAF f111 pilots are not in favour of this lovely system we now have. One of the new rules we have in class E airspace is that we cant issue block level clearance anymore. So our good friends at amberly who used to go in a formation of 4 f111's at a block level FL140 to FL150 now go at F140 F150 F160 F170. They take up loads more space and im sure it takes away a bit of their fun in close formation flying.
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Block Levels
That's an interesting point, capitan. I was under the same impression, because I distinctly recall in the training package that block levels were banned to ALL aircraft, however, I noted in MATS yesterday that block levels are now banned to CIVIL aircraft only.
We all know that see and avoid is totally, 100%, they-couldn't-hit-in-a-pink-fit safe, right?! So why ban block levels? And why only to civvies? Are our ADF personnel deemed 'more worthy' than our civil bretheren! Or was it a case (as I suspect) that there were some very late and very unannounced changes in the NAS back corridors. Don't get me wrong - I don't want to see block levels banned - if anything, they should be freely available to everyone in this secure, dependable system!
This whole thing continues to stink worse than my kids' nappies - and will probably end up looking as bad too!
We all know that see and avoid is totally, 100%, they-couldn't-hit-in-a-pink-fit safe, right?! So why ban block levels? And why only to civvies? Are our ADF personnel deemed 'more worthy' than our civil bretheren! Or was it a case (as I suspect) that there were some very late and very unannounced changes in the NAS back corridors. Don't get me wrong - I don't want to see block levels banned - if anything, they should be freely available to everyone in this secure, dependable system!
This whole thing continues to stink worse than my kids' nappies - and will probably end up looking as bad too!
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A question:
Why would a TCAS trigger an RA if there was at least 500 feet between the B737 and the Cessna?
If the answer is that an RA will be generated whenever the TCAS logic detects that less than 1,000FT will exist, does TCAS logic need to be updated to account for the effective reduction in separation in Class E (between VFR and IFR)? If not, are we going to have TCAS RA’s every time an IFR aircraft encounters a VFR aircraft in class E?
More to the point – what happens in the United States?
Why would a TCAS trigger an RA if there was at least 500 feet between the B737 and the Cessna?
If the answer is that an RA will be generated whenever the TCAS logic detects that less than 1,000FT will exist, does TCAS logic need to be updated to account for the effective reduction in separation in Class E (between VFR and IFR)? If not, are we going to have TCAS RA’s every time an IFR aircraft encounters a VFR aircraft in class E?
More to the point – what happens in the United States?
Bottums Up
4711
If I understand properly the Virgin 73 was on descent, thus the TCAS would be calculating a rate of closure, so when our erstwhile ex military jock who's in Class E without having his transponder correctly set to ALT, subsequently selects ALT, the 73 TCAS screams Get me outa here!
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Dear Woomera
Kindly take your key to this speculative drivel.
I will wait for the ATSB report rather than give any credence to the manure expoused by most here.
I sometimes wonder if any of you are actually in the industry at all, purely on the basis that if you were (and had been for more than 5 minutes) you would not be saying some of the things written here.
ding
Kindly take your key to this speculative drivel.
I will wait for the ATSB report rather than give any credence to the manure expoused by most here.
I sometimes wonder if any of you are actually in the industry at all, purely on the basis that if you were (and had been for more than 5 minutes) you would not be saying some of the things written here.
ding
The Reverend
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If the answer is that an RA will be generated whenever the TCAS logic detects that less than 1,000FT will exist, does TCAS logic need to be updated to account for the effective reduction in separation in Class E (between VFR and IFR)? If not, are we going to have TCAS RA’s every time an IFR aircraft encounters a VFR aircraft in class E?
TCAS II sensitivity level in layer 4 (10,000ft MSL-20,000ft MSL) is:
SL6
RA Alarm time (seconds) - 30
TA Alarm Time - 45
Protected Area (nm) - 0.8
Layer 4 (Feet between Aircraft)
TA Vertical Threshold (ft) - 850
RA Preventive Threshold - 600
RA Positive Vertical Threshold - 400
TCAS II tracks aircraft by interrogating and monitoring their ATC transponders. TCAS II can not detect aircraft without operating (replying) transponders.
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Tobzalp,
Hello,
"........................................................... ............................"
Post edited severely in the interests of acting my age.
Noodle
Hello,
"........................................................... ............................"
Post edited severely in the interests of acting my age.
Noodle
Last edited by Captain Noodle; 5th Dec 2003 at 12:26.
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Sadly, I think we have to face the facts.
Everyone has stated their own personal pros/cons on NAS, and there has been a lot of ill will floating around here. But, at the end of the day, Dick Smith gets his airspace, John Anderson doesn't have to face a candidate backed by Dicks money at the next election, Airservices senior management all get a fat Chrissy bonus for being compliant, Civil Air have their hands tied because any industrial action is illegal, and NAS is all systems go.
Any complaint by Aviation professionals is shouted down as "Union Scaremongering" or "Job Protection" by those who think 100 hours in a Warrior constitutes "experience", but the truth of the matter is that Dick Smith has the ear of Joe and Jane Citizen thanks to his portrayal by Ray Martin as a "top bloke and good guy" etc etc. I was explaining NAS to my mother on the phone the other night, and she wouldn't hear a word against Dick. Unfortunately, thats political muscle.
Email the Minister, post on PPRuNe, lobby your boss until you are blue in the face, the fact remains that NAS is here (probably to stay), and it is doubtful that even a mid-air could change it. Honestly, if the unspeakable does actually happen, who do you really think the **** will stick to? John Anderson? Dick Smith?
Everyone has stated their own personal pros/cons on NAS, and there has been a lot of ill will floating around here. But, at the end of the day, Dick Smith gets his airspace, John Anderson doesn't have to face a candidate backed by Dicks money at the next election, Airservices senior management all get a fat Chrissy bonus for being compliant, Civil Air have their hands tied because any industrial action is illegal, and NAS is all systems go.
Any complaint by Aviation professionals is shouted down as "Union Scaremongering" or "Job Protection" by those who think 100 hours in a Warrior constitutes "experience", but the truth of the matter is that Dick Smith has the ear of Joe and Jane Citizen thanks to his portrayal by Ray Martin as a "top bloke and good guy" etc etc. I was explaining NAS to my mother on the phone the other night, and she wouldn't hear a word against Dick. Unfortunately, thats political muscle.
Email the Minister, post on PPRuNe, lobby your boss until you are blue in the face, the fact remains that NAS is here (probably to stay), and it is doubtful that even a mid-air could change it. Honestly, if the unspeakable does actually happen, who do you really think the **** will stick to? John Anderson? Dick Smith?
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I have read all the posts on this thread. Listened to both side and seen all the mud slinging. The bottom line is NAS is here and we have to be able to work with it. So how are we going to do this? I don't fly the heavy iron, I do however operate a flying school. Remember those places guys, you all had to start somewhere.
1 Educational Resource Material is on its way from CASA
2 Contact as many pilots in my area as possible
3 Run Seminars on NAS
1 Educational Resource Material is on its way from CASA
2 Contact as many pilots in my area as possible
3 Run Seminars on NAS