Pacific Blue & Rishworth
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Gossip on the ACARS has it that VB/PB tried at the last minute to get out of bed with Rishworth for some reason (possibly $$) but the ink had already dried.
They did manage to get the F/A's out or not involved with them.
As someone said earlier, get it in writing.
Good luck to all.
They did manage to get the F/A's out or not involved with them.
As someone said earlier, get it in writing.
Good luck to all.
Join Date: Nov 2002
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I strongly agree with Australia 2 and Gnadenburg,
Having an abundance of 737 time does not make alot of difference to your overseas job prospects.
If you think getting into VB or PB will be a stepping stone to another major international carrier think again,as there are plenty of very experienced pilots on the hold file with companies like EK,that have wide body,heavy jet time.
If your thinking that Australia is the only place that aviation is at an all time low,then take a look at Europe.plenty of unemployed jet jocks there too.
Using EK as an example,they have plenty of wide body,heavy time guys on the hold file,many of which,are from Europe.
If there were a lot of job opportunities for 737 experience elsewhere there would'nt be any unemployed Ex-Ansett guys.
Having an abundance of 737 time does not make alot of difference to your overseas job prospects.
If you think getting into VB or PB will be a stepping stone to another major international carrier think again,as there are plenty of very experienced pilots on the hold file with companies like EK,that have wide body,heavy jet time.
If your thinking that Australia is the only place that aviation is at an all time low,then take a look at Europe.plenty of unemployed jet jocks there too.
Using EK as an example,they have plenty of wide body,heavy time guys on the hold file,many of which,are from Europe.
If there were a lot of job opportunities for 737 experience elsewhere there would'nt be any unemployed Ex-Ansett guys.
Props are for boats!
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Well maybe the fact that Differences course has come down in price. Will make a difference. I am asking a question? Someone said ETA is revising its differences course. Are they still using the GECAT sims in Honkers?
Sheep
Sheep
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ETA are not revising their differences course (they don't yet have one). They are creating a differences course.
Andy expects it to be approved by January. He also expects to be using the Qantas Sim. Rishworth say this won't be soon enough for the first batch of pilots. They will have to do the differences course elsewhere, most likely Alteon in Seattle.
I stand by my assertion that PB may be a good stepping stone for some pilots. The implication that B737NG time is essentially worthless or detrimental to employment prospects is of course nonsense. It won't guarantee you a better job but it will certainly help in that quest. You won't help your cause by avoiding B737NG exposure.
A step up from PB doesn't necessarily mean a leap to CX or EK, they aren't the only decent carriers around nor the only carriers that would be a step up from PB.
Yes, the pilot employment scene is crowded at the moment and there are only limited places available at the prestige carriers. For some of those that miss out there, PB may well be the best they can get. If anyone knows how such people can stay in aviation and improve their personal situation by not taking a job at a discount carrier, don't be shy, let us all know. You could probably make a fortune selling the information.
Regards, von Mises
Andy expects it to be approved by January. He also expects to be using the Qantas Sim. Rishworth say this won't be soon enough for the first batch of pilots. They will have to do the differences course elsewhere, most likely Alteon in Seattle.
I stand by my assertion that PB may be a good stepping stone for some pilots. The implication that B737NG time is essentially worthless or detrimental to employment prospects is of course nonsense. It won't guarantee you a better job but it will certainly help in that quest. You won't help your cause by avoiding B737NG exposure.
A step up from PB doesn't necessarily mean a leap to CX or EK, they aren't the only decent carriers around nor the only carriers that would be a step up from PB.
Yes, the pilot employment scene is crowded at the moment and there are only limited places available at the prestige carriers. For some of those that miss out there, PB may well be the best they can get. If anyone knows how such people can stay in aviation and improve their personal situation by not taking a job at a discount carrier, don't be shy, let us all know. You could probably make a fortune selling the information.
Regards, von Mises
Victor Mike
A regional airline would be a stepup from PoohBlue.
Good luck mate, honestly, it just seems very tragic the deterioration in conditions of airline pilots.
A little secret. A few years ago, plus or minus a few years, everyone "made it" to airlines. The pay fair and most securing their retirement at the stage where current players seem to be going into debt to finance endorsements.
And who else apart from CX and EK a step up from Pacific Blue?
What do you think a hundred Pacific Blue applicants(and a hundred QF Impulse crewed applicants) will eventually do to the above conditions?
A regional airline would be a stepup from PoohBlue.
Good luck mate, honestly, it just seems very tragic the deterioration in conditions of airline pilots.
A little secret. A few years ago, plus or minus a few years, everyone "made it" to airlines. The pay fair and most securing their retirement at the stage where current players seem to be going into debt to finance endorsements.
And who else apart from CX and EK a step up from Pacific Blue?
What do you think a hundred Pacific Blue applicants(and a hundred QF Impulse crewed applicants) will eventually do to the above conditions?
Gnadenburg...very good points, wholheartedly agree.
What worries me is this subservient, "Upstairs Downstairs" thinking of 'thank you M'Lord for even looking at me' mentality being exhibited by so many pilots and in some of the statements from Von Mises (sorry, that's considered criticism Von Moses, not like the first one).
This lickspittle attitude is a natural result of competition for jobs as there are in Aust/NZ more pilots than jobs. However this is not the case globally. LCC's in Europe (Ryan and Easy for example) employ newbies and stepping-stone types but they rapidly get paid not too badly - because demand for them is greater than supply.
The much rumoured global pilot shortage may well be on the way but I think it will be a long time before it filters through to Aust/NZ. It was happenning before Sept 11 and is now starting to slowly creep in again.
Globally, basically nobody is taking up aviation as a career, there are many older pilots retiring and the airlines are planning major growth (just look at Emirates and their 45 A380's). Basic laws of economics must prevail and the LCC's will suffer hugely unless they up salaries significantly, and that includes the Virgin Blues and Jetconnects of the world.
Aus and NZ are not too bad to live in (if you look past parochial thinking and the taxation) but there is so much more out there to do. The thought of relentless NZCC-NZAA or YMML-YSSY shuttles personally bores me to tears, but that's just my thinking.
Rather than all this forelock-tugging to employers, why not get out of NZ or Aus, get overseas, expand your cultural and mental boundaries, learn languages, bless your children with cultural knowlege (oh don't live in Pommyland then) and experiences AND potentially earn a fair whack of cash in a rapidly expanding airline that is grateful (or gratefulish) to have you.
Take the initiative and stop being doormats.
What worries me is this subservient, "Upstairs Downstairs" thinking of 'thank you M'Lord for even looking at me' mentality being exhibited by so many pilots and in some of the statements from Von Mises (sorry, that's considered criticism Von Moses, not like the first one).
This lickspittle attitude is a natural result of competition for jobs as there are in Aust/NZ more pilots than jobs. However this is not the case globally. LCC's in Europe (Ryan and Easy for example) employ newbies and stepping-stone types but they rapidly get paid not too badly - because demand for them is greater than supply.
The much rumoured global pilot shortage may well be on the way but I think it will be a long time before it filters through to Aust/NZ. It was happenning before Sept 11 and is now starting to slowly creep in again.
Globally, basically nobody is taking up aviation as a career, there are many older pilots retiring and the airlines are planning major growth (just look at Emirates and their 45 A380's). Basic laws of economics must prevail and the LCC's will suffer hugely unless they up salaries significantly, and that includes the Virgin Blues and Jetconnects of the world.
Aus and NZ are not too bad to live in (if you look past parochial thinking and the taxation) but there is so much more out there to do. The thought of relentless NZCC-NZAA or YMML-YSSY shuttles personally bores me to tears, but that's just my thinking.
Rather than all this forelock-tugging to employers, why not get out of NZ or Aus, get overseas, expand your cultural and mental boundaries, learn languages, bless your children with cultural knowlege (oh don't live in Pommyland then) and experiences AND potentially earn a fair whack of cash in a rapidly expanding airline that is grateful (or gratefulish) to have you.
Take the initiative and stop being doormats.
AL, easy to suggest up and move but for anyone without Airline experience and large financial resources it is basically a non-starter. If you are single then it is a possibility, but probably only to somewhere wild (Africa (excl SA), Carribean, PNG). Unless you can get visas, the US and Europe are out. With the UK you will need to have alot of quid to gain the JAA licence. ME and Asia do have alot of expatriates but for the most part these are previously airline experienced. Australia/NZ is unusual in that there are Legions of poorly paid/treated GA guys that the LCCs can recruit from. Europe,ME, Asia don't have this - hence the need for expatriates, cadets etc. The US is different again but GA there seems to have more sustainable employment positions through Biz, frieght, EMS etc.
May I suggest that if there was one union in Australia (+ one in NZ) representing ALL pilots pushing for reasonable conditions for all there would not be the situation of GA/Impulse 'barbarians' at the LCC gate hammering down pay and conditions basically through desparation.
Pilots need something akin the AMA where as part of looking after its members the number of licences issued is restricted to more or less demand
May I suggest that if there was one union in Australia (+ one in NZ) representing ALL pilots pushing for reasonable conditions for all there would not be the situation of GA/Impulse 'barbarians' at the LCC gate hammering down pay and conditions basically through desparation.
Pilots need something akin the AMA where as part of looking after its members the number of licences issued is restricted to more or less demand
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Slice, AMA analogy doesn't quite work. Doctors are regulated and overseen by state government registration boards. Do you think the government should regulate pilot wages? The AMA is also not the only group that represents doctors in Oz, just the largest and most vocal.
Bitter Balance - yes, but as I understand it the AMA has a fair amount of political clout and its influence is felt far and wide through state/fed government. What I was thinking of was an umbrella body that covers all aspects of Aircrew training, ciriculum, licencing, testing, certification, industrial representation, professional issues etc. Not suggesting that the Govt set Aircrew wages, but have this umbrella body control the numbers of Commercial licences issued thus preventing the endemic oversupply of trained Pilots. Without these thousands of desparados the ability of any Company to offer ever decreasing salary and conditions becomes extremely limited.
Last edited by slice; 16th Nov 2003 at 14:22.
Slice...excellent suggestion indeed.
In Australia the AFAP and AIPA should join forces and they should integrate with their NZ counterparts. It won't stop the young or desperate undercutting colleagues but it will allow ONE cohesive voice, vocal on such aspects as minimum salaries and Airspace etc with far more political clout than is at present the case.
Don't think this will happen as the egos and/or pride within the respective associations are too precious.
In Australia the AFAP and AIPA should join forces and they should integrate with their NZ counterparts. It won't stop the young or desperate undercutting colleagues but it will allow ONE cohesive voice, vocal on such aspects as minimum salaries and Airspace etc with far more political clout than is at present the case.
Don't think this will happen as the egos and/or pride within the respective associations are too precious.
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Slice, try getting that through the ACCC. The proposed entity restricting the issue of CPLs etc would be in a bit of strife with respect to the Trade Practices Act. Change the act you say. Should the Trade Practices Act be tossed to allow pilots to maintain their remuneration levels? I expect I know the answer most on this board will give to that one 
So how do they get away with it for doctors (?)
The answer of course is that medical students are put through a rigid and highly institutionalised system deeply embeded in the University structure where numbers are tightly controlled - no Trade Practices act intruding there!
I admit basically the whole paradigm (what a wanky word that is!) would have to shift. The plethora of commercial training schools, some of dubious quality, would be rationalized and put under the broad control of this mythical umbrella organization I am dreaming of. Say a dozen or so schools teaching commercial flying around the country with G1 & G2 instructors paid a good full-time salary being efficently put use by doing alot of flying in trainers doings 750-100 hrs pa. Umbrella organization ensures standards and standardization (up to a point of course) and candidates are screened by a selection commitee to determine basic aptitude. G3s cut their teeth at PPL only schools that are not affected.
The current lassez-faire free market approach has failed dismally to maintain consistent standards of training and needs to be fundamentally changed.
This is just food for thought - you could pick holes in what I have proposed till the cows come home but my point is that the current system is poor.
This thread has gone way off the PB topic(apologies) so I will post my vision of a glorious future on the sunny uplands in the land of aviation milk and honey on a new thread!
The answer of course is that medical students are put through a rigid and highly institutionalised system deeply embeded in the University structure where numbers are tightly controlled - no Trade Practices act intruding there!
I admit basically the whole paradigm (what a wanky word that is!) would have to shift. The plethora of commercial training schools, some of dubious quality, would be rationalized and put under the broad control of this mythical umbrella organization I am dreaming of. Say a dozen or so schools teaching commercial flying around the country with G1 & G2 instructors paid a good full-time salary being efficently put use by doing alot of flying in trainers doings 750-100 hrs pa. Umbrella organization ensures standards and standardization (up to a point of course) and candidates are screened by a selection commitee to determine basic aptitude. G3s cut their teeth at PPL only schools that are not affected.
The current lassez-faire free market approach has failed dismally to maintain consistent standards of training and needs to be fundamentally changed.
This is just food for thought - you could pick holes in what I have proposed till the cows come home but my point is that the current system is poor.
This thread has gone way off the PB topic(apologies) so I will post my vision of a glorious future on the sunny uplands in the land of aviation milk and honey on a new thread!
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Dow Jones
Monday November 17, 9:35 AM AEDT
NZ Pacific Blue: May Not Start Domestic Service From Auckland
WELLINGTON (Dow Jones)--Pacific Blue, an offshoot of Australian airline Virgin Blue, plans to start flying domestic routes from next year, but might not start with flights out of Auckland, said Virgin Blue's head of commercial operations David Huttner Monday.
"We hope to be flying domestically nest year," Huttner told Radio New Zealand, but refused to put a timetable on the move.
"While we see Auckland as important to our long-term plan, it isn't necessarily the first step."
Huttner was responding to claims by Ralph Norris, chief executive officer of Air New Zealand Ltd. that Pacific Blue won't be able to start a New Zealand domestic service because it won't be able to get terminal space at Auckland International Airport Ltd.
Huttner denied the airline is having trouble getting the terminal space in New Zealand's biggest city.
Pacific Blue will be "working with the folks at Auckland Airport in the coming weeks to try to identify a suitable space to build our own facility."
Pacific Blue will early next year start flying from Christchurch on New Zealand's South Island to Melbourne and Brisbane and plans to become New Zealand's third domestic airline, to compete with Air New Zealand and Qantas Airways Ltd.
Huttner said that even if Pacific Blue has to build its own terminal facilities at Auckland Airport, it wouldn't stop it from flying there in 2004.
"It's not a complicated process if we can design the right facilities," he said.
After the New Zealand Commerce Commission rejected the planned alliance between Air New Zealand and Qantas last month, Air New Zealand withdrew from the conditional agreement it had with Pacific Blue for terminal access and ground handling facilities.
-Wellington Bureau, Dow Jones Newswires; 64-4-471-5990; [email protected]
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Monday November 17, 9:35 AM AEDT
NZ Pacific Blue: May Not Start Domestic Service From Auckland
WELLINGTON (Dow Jones)--Pacific Blue, an offshoot of Australian airline Virgin Blue, plans to start flying domestic routes from next year, but might not start with flights out of Auckland, said Virgin Blue's head of commercial operations David Huttner Monday.
"We hope to be flying domestically nest year," Huttner told Radio New Zealand, but refused to put a timetable on the move.
"While we see Auckland as important to our long-term plan, it isn't necessarily the first step."
Huttner was responding to claims by Ralph Norris, chief executive officer of Air New Zealand Ltd. that Pacific Blue won't be able to start a New Zealand domestic service because it won't be able to get terminal space at Auckland International Airport Ltd.
Huttner denied the airline is having trouble getting the terminal space in New Zealand's biggest city.
Pacific Blue will be "working with the folks at Auckland Airport in the coming weeks to try to identify a suitable space to build our own facility."
Pacific Blue will early next year start flying from Christchurch on New Zealand's South Island to Melbourne and Brisbane and plans to become New Zealand's third domestic airline, to compete with Air New Zealand and Qantas Airways Ltd.
Huttner said that even if Pacific Blue has to build its own terminal facilities at Auckland Airport, it wouldn't stop it from flying there in 2004.
"It's not a complicated process if we can design the right facilities," he said.
After the New Zealand Commerce Commission rejected the planned alliance between Air New Zealand and Qantas last month, Air New Zealand withdrew from the conditional agreement it had with Pacific Blue for terminal access and ground handling facilities.
-Wellington Bureau, Dow Jones Newswires; 64-4-471-5990; [email protected]
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Join Date: Feb 2002
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Just the thought of having to build a terminal at Auckland means a serious spanner has been thrown into their works.
Auckland is the passenger capital of NZ (a bit like Sydney in Oz) and the cost of building their own terminal (albeit a tent or even shack) can be a major expense.
Couple that with them supposedly trying to get out of the Rishworth contract makes us think all is not as smooth as suggested.
Rumour is also that those that applied to VB and missed out will probably not be considered for Pacific Blue either.
There are alot of Kiwi expats that are flying nice equipment overseas and keen to get home.
As the man said, "It wont happen straight away, but it will happen!"
Auckland is the passenger capital of NZ (a bit like Sydney in Oz) and the cost of building their own terminal (albeit a tent or even shack) can be a major expense.
Couple that with them supposedly trying to get out of the Rishworth contract makes us think all is not as smooth as suggested.
Rumour is also that those that applied to VB and missed out will probably not be considered for Pacific Blue either.
There are alot of Kiwi expats that are flying nice equipment overseas and keen to get home.
As the man said, "It wont happen straight away, but it will happen!"
