Erosion of Pay and Conditions - What are we doing about it?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Cambodia
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Erosion of Pay and Conditions - What are we doing about it?
The increasing pressure on the pay and conditions of tech and cabin crew is an issue that is and will dramatically impact on all of us as professionals who make their living out of flying.
Whilst it is understandable that companies want to maximise profits, putting screws into the back of staff is seen as acceptable, but sooner or later, those screws are going to come out of the chest in one way or another.
Personally, I feel like it's a profession that is up to its neck in ****e, and people are like 'Don't make any waves'.
But what are WE gonna do??
A serious discussion folks about how this situation can be stopped - or even reversed - not a slanging match of one airline or nationality against another, nor cryin about the past, even though the past has much to do with today's situation.
We need solutions! Not martyrs and scapegoats - solutions.
Whilst it is understandable that companies want to maximise profits, putting screws into the back of staff is seen as acceptable, but sooner or later, those screws are going to come out of the chest in one way or another.
Personally, I feel like it's a profession that is up to its neck in ****e, and people are like 'Don't make any waves'.
But what are WE gonna do??
A serious discussion folks about how this situation can be stopped - or even reversed - not a slanging match of one airline or nationality against another, nor cryin about the past, even though the past has much to do with today's situation.
We need solutions! Not martyrs and scapegoats - solutions.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Bedrock
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We are having the same situation over here in the States. To be honest, I don't think there is anything you can do about in an unregulated environment. Use to be, the majors could and would crush any LCC (low cost carrier) that started up. However, the majors (US Air, United, and American) are all bleeding huge amounts of cash while Southwest, JetBlue, etc are turning profits and have reached a size to big for the majors to kill. Overall, we have excess supply (both total seats and airlines) and until 1 or more companies goes Chapter 7 (liquidation), I don't see anything changing soon. How is it over there?
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Col. Kurtz, couldn't agree more. There is undoubtably a slide in the wrong direction at the moment. The lure of a jet job for young pilot's sees them prepared to do it for less. I think when all the recruitment slows to a more normal level we will start to see a change of attitude. The younger guys (after a bit of time on type) will realise that they are not being paid what they deserve and we can get them onside.
46 driver the more sucessful low cost carriers pay their pilots quite well. Southwest and Ryanair to name just 2, look after their staff very well. The bean counters in those airlines (being infinitely smarter than the average airline stooge) have worked out quite simply the correct formula. "Look after the staff, and they will look after you and the bottom line".
Back to the wages Col. I am not blaming the young blokes for the slide, they are just the pawns caught in the middle and the companies are exploiting that for all they can get. We need to make a clear and concise point to these management clowns what they are doing. They simply do not understand the industry or it's complexities.
Perhaps if we all just work to rule, no bending over backwards to get away on time, choosing smoother cruising levels, expeditious arrivals etc they might get the point. I don't like making waves but this push on wages is getting out of control!
46 driver the more sucessful low cost carriers pay their pilots quite well. Southwest and Ryanair to name just 2, look after their staff very well. The bean counters in those airlines (being infinitely smarter than the average airline stooge) have worked out quite simply the correct formula. "Look after the staff, and they will look after you and the bottom line".
Back to the wages Col. I am not blaming the young blokes for the slide, they are just the pawns caught in the middle and the companies are exploiting that for all they can get. We need to make a clear and concise point to these management clowns what they are doing. They simply do not understand the industry or it's complexities.
Perhaps if we all just work to rule, no bending over backwards to get away on time, choosing smoother cruising levels, expeditious arrivals etc they might get the point. I don't like making waves but this push on wages is getting out of control!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
The realisation amongst pilots, has set in too late I'd venture to say.
Any solution for airline staff in general, lay in their hands when each group was more or less organised to approach problems in a united manner ie. unions.
The airline managements and governments (not only in Australia) have been fighting this orchestrated war of attrition for over a decade now, and only NOW are the fruits of their labour starting to become apparent by way of decreased income for the general worker, and massive increased rewards for upper level management.
As of some time ago, the major splintering of the groups began.
The decision to let Ansett collapse and be replaced by Virgin Blue was almost certainly deliberate on the government's part.
Quite frankly, I see no solution in the short term.
Imo, the crunch will come later on when individuals begin to realise that it simply isn't worth spending vast sums of money to enter what used to be a "profession", for the meagre returns.
However, I guess this will be countered by the governments by allowing a lessening (lowering) of the previous and current standards, and the continuation of pilot cadet schemes.
Then again there will ALWAYS be the mindset that reckons flying is a good job, regardless of what they're (not) paid.
Again, imo, there is very little thought being given to the impact that these purely industrial attacks are undoubtedly going to have on flight Safety - regardless of the advances in automation.
"Who will be next?" - AFAP 1989.
Answer = The Entire Airline Industry.
Any solution for airline staff in general, lay in their hands when each group was more or less organised to approach problems in a united manner ie. unions.
The airline managements and governments (not only in Australia) have been fighting this orchestrated war of attrition for over a decade now, and only NOW are the fruits of their labour starting to become apparent by way of decreased income for the general worker, and massive increased rewards for upper level management.
As of some time ago, the major splintering of the groups began.
The decision to let Ansett collapse and be replaced by Virgin Blue was almost certainly deliberate on the government's part.
Quite frankly, I see no solution in the short term.
Imo, the crunch will come later on when individuals begin to realise that it simply isn't worth spending vast sums of money to enter what used to be a "profession", for the meagre returns.
However, I guess this will be countered by the governments by allowing a lessening (lowering) of the previous and current standards, and the continuation of pilot cadet schemes.
Then again there will ALWAYS be the mindset that reckons flying is a good job, regardless of what they're (not) paid.
Again, imo, there is very little thought being given to the impact that these purely industrial attacks are undoubtedly going to have on flight Safety - regardless of the advances in automation.
"Who will be next?" - AFAP 1989.
Answer = The Entire Airline Industry.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: sydney
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think it's safe to say that today's economic climate will dictate from now on that all business's in this industry look at the 'low cost' model when evaluating their own performance. The more with less attitude of senior management is driven by the comparitive success of the airlines who fall into this bracket. Shareholders concerns are generally claimed as the driving force behind much of the restructuring etc that is now common place, however the mad scramble for viability in the changing market has only begun.
To my mind the successful airlines of the next 5 years will be judged not only by the return on investment and market share but by industrial relations with the workforce. It is my opinion that entry salaries, in AUS / NZ will fall another 5% for tech / cabin crew in the next 2-3 years and then stabilise. Those companies who can value-add to salaries will become preferred employers and those who don't will struggle.
It is an unfortunate reality I think in the present climate. Gone are the days of internalised induction training, stable rostering practices and 200,000.00 salaries for left seaters. I don't agree with it but I can't see changes likely while the low cost model is the darling of the industry so to speak.
To my mind the successful airlines of the next 5 years will be judged not only by the return on investment and market share but by industrial relations with the workforce. It is my opinion that entry salaries, in AUS / NZ will fall another 5% for tech / cabin crew in the next 2-3 years and then stabilise. Those companies who can value-add to salaries will become preferred employers and those who don't will struggle.
It is an unfortunate reality I think in the present climate. Gone are the days of internalised induction training, stable rostering practices and 200,000.00 salaries for left seaters. I don't agree with it but I can't see changes likely while the low cost model is the darling of the industry so to speak.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Bedrock
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are correct, Southwest, Air Tran, and JetBlue make excellent wages (I think Jet Blue guys get an initial stock offering that is currently worth $400k +)
2 other factors here stateside and I am curious to know if they are the same in Europe and Australia.
1) Is the introduction of the Regional Jet. ALPA did not see this coming simply thinking it was a replacement for turboprops. However, the range, speed, and size (most of the regionals are flying 70 seaters now) while being flown at commuter wages are taking away from mainline flying. In hindsight, if ALPA had mandated that all jets had to be flown on one seniority lists, we might not be in this situation.
2) Is that many cities - fed up with being strangled by a single carrier (i.e., Delta, United, American) - are paying LCC's to fly into their cities for competition thus reducing airfares. Once lucrative routes have dried up (for example, Delta use to charge in excess of $800 for a round trip between Pensacola and Atlanta (about 500 km) Pensacola got fed up with this, guaranteed AirTran $2 million in ticket sales to fly into Pensacola, and now airfares on Delta and AirTran are somewhere around the $100 to $200 mark. Kind of hard for the big boys to make money when they are under seige by the LCC's, the regionals, the cities, internet fares, and a revolt of the business travelers.
2 other factors here stateside and I am curious to know if they are the same in Europe and Australia.
1) Is the introduction of the Regional Jet. ALPA did not see this coming simply thinking it was a replacement for turboprops. However, the range, speed, and size (most of the regionals are flying 70 seaters now) while being flown at commuter wages are taking away from mainline flying. In hindsight, if ALPA had mandated that all jets had to be flown on one seniority lists, we might not be in this situation.
2) Is that many cities - fed up with being strangled by a single carrier (i.e., Delta, United, American) - are paying LCC's to fly into their cities for competition thus reducing airfares. Once lucrative routes have dried up (for example, Delta use to charge in excess of $800 for a round trip between Pensacola and Atlanta (about 500 km) Pensacola got fed up with this, guaranteed AirTran $2 million in ticket sales to fly into Pensacola, and now airfares on Delta and AirTran are somewhere around the $100 to $200 mark. Kind of hard for the big boys to make money when they are under seige by the LCC's, the regionals, the cities, internet fares, and a revolt of the business travelers.
Col. Walter E. Kurtz: "...understandable that companies want to maximise profits..."
46Driver: "...the majors ... are all bleeding huge amounts of cash..."
In 1954 the return air fare cost for a family of three, Hobart - Sydney return (by flying boat) was $1,700 (slightly less than the price of a new FX Holden), or 8.2 months of an average workers income. Fifty years ago air travel was for the rich, particularly here in Australia with its cozy two airline monopoly. What would be the cost for that same family travel today – a week’s wages, perhaps?
I would think that fifty years ago the same flying boat captain’s wage (in today's dollars) would be significantly higher than a current B747 captain's wage - or were the higher airfares required to meet the operating cost of what was very inefficient aircraft by today's standards?
Over the past fifty years, airlines have become very capital intensive with current air fares inadequate in many cases, to service the very significant capital and debt servicing costs.
Globalisation, increased competition, sub contract and out sourced services, a "glut" of pilots on occasions and changing industrial environments have resulted in an erosion of upper level crew wages, whilst lower level airline staff have enjoyed no more than the increased standard of living enjoyed by all Australian workers.
If further efficiencies are not achieved (i.e. similar to the previous reduction in tech crews from three to two; larger capacity aircraft, etc), it would be reasonable to expect further erosion in upper level aircrew wages.
The days when unions were effective in gaining real income and benefits increases have long since gone - in many cases, unions have become an anachronism of a bygone era. At best, unions can only be a common voice at the bargaining table in a game where industry and government hold the Aces.
In the longer term airline pilots will continue to enjoy a wage structure significantly higher than the average Australian worker, but the halcyon days of extraordinarily high wages, excessive perks, restrictive work practices, seniority lists and inefficiencies have gone forever.
The above is a realistic observation of modern industrial relation trends. It does not necessary reflect the writer’s opinion on pilot wages, unionism etc.
46Driver: "...the majors ... are all bleeding huge amounts of cash..."
In 1954 the return air fare cost for a family of three, Hobart - Sydney return (by flying boat) was $1,700 (slightly less than the price of a new FX Holden), or 8.2 months of an average workers income. Fifty years ago air travel was for the rich, particularly here in Australia with its cozy two airline monopoly. What would be the cost for that same family travel today – a week’s wages, perhaps?
I would think that fifty years ago the same flying boat captain’s wage (in today's dollars) would be significantly higher than a current B747 captain's wage - or were the higher airfares required to meet the operating cost of what was very inefficient aircraft by today's standards?
Over the past fifty years, airlines have become very capital intensive with current air fares inadequate in many cases, to service the very significant capital and debt servicing costs.
Globalisation, increased competition, sub contract and out sourced services, a "glut" of pilots on occasions and changing industrial environments have resulted in an erosion of upper level crew wages, whilst lower level airline staff have enjoyed no more than the increased standard of living enjoyed by all Australian workers.
If further efficiencies are not achieved (i.e. similar to the previous reduction in tech crews from three to two; larger capacity aircraft, etc), it would be reasonable to expect further erosion in upper level aircrew wages.
The days when unions were effective in gaining real income and benefits increases have long since gone - in many cases, unions have become an anachronism of a bygone era. At best, unions can only be a common voice at the bargaining table in a game where industry and government hold the Aces.
In the longer term airline pilots will continue to enjoy a wage structure significantly higher than the average Australian worker, but the halcyon days of extraordinarily high wages, excessive perks, restrictive work practices, seniority lists and inefficiencies have gone forever.
The above is a realistic observation of modern industrial relation trends. It does not necessary reflect the writer’s opinion on pilot wages, unionism etc.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: NSW Australia
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Col.,
Unity of pilots is something that would help to, at least, maintain current wage levels. Therefore, there is something very simple that all of the supposedly professional pilot posters on this forum can do - they can stop using the term "overpaid" when referring to QF pilots. Management types must just love to see some pilots attacking other pilot's conditions - aspire to the higher pay levels, don't try to drag others down to the lower levels.
Unity of pilots is something that would help to, at least, maintain current wage levels. Therefore, there is something very simple that all of the supposedly professional pilot posters on this forum can do - they can stop using the term "overpaid" when referring to QF pilots. Management types must just love to see some pilots attacking other pilot's conditions - aspire to the higher pay levels, don't try to drag others down to the lower levels.
No matter which industry, it's dog eat dog.
All the "Mum's & Dad's investors" out there with Qantas shares (Or any shares for that matter), couldn't give a damn about what the employee is going through.
As long as their dividend and share price keeps rising, they are happy.
To this tune, the likes of Geoff Dixon and Co. look pretty good in the investors eye. Always on telly talking about cutting costs and announcing good profits in a doom and gloom industry. Well at least that is what they say.
The M & D investors would be cheering him on to cut wages, and conditions, as perhaps in their eyes most airline employees are too well looked after anyway.
And as far as the M & D investor is concerned, Geoff and Co should get those great salaries and bonuses as he is doing a good job for the share holder.
Now the sad twist here is that those M & D investors are usually employees of similar companies, which are also trying to cut costs, usually through employee wages and conditions.
And these every day people love a bargain, whether it's a cheap $2 import from asia or a cheap airline ticket. They don't give rats arse.
They are all saving money and looking after THEIR retirement.
Not yours or anybody elses. And we are just as guilty as they are.
If this is looks to you like a tighter and tighter spiral into the ground, then l would say you are right.
l don't think a **** load of power and flight control input will help this one.
Food for thought
halas
All the "Mum's & Dad's investors" out there with Qantas shares (Or any shares for that matter), couldn't give a damn about what the employee is going through.
As long as their dividend and share price keeps rising, they are happy.
To this tune, the likes of Geoff Dixon and Co. look pretty good in the investors eye. Always on telly talking about cutting costs and announcing good profits in a doom and gloom industry. Well at least that is what they say.
The M & D investors would be cheering him on to cut wages, and conditions, as perhaps in their eyes most airline employees are too well looked after anyway.
And as far as the M & D investor is concerned, Geoff and Co should get those great salaries and bonuses as he is doing a good job for the share holder.
Now the sad twist here is that those M & D investors are usually employees of similar companies, which are also trying to cut costs, usually through employee wages and conditions.
And these every day people love a bargain, whether it's a cheap $2 import from asia or a cheap airline ticket. They don't give rats arse.
They are all saving money and looking after THEIR retirement.
Not yours or anybody elses. And we are just as guilty as they are.
If this is looks to you like a tighter and tighter spiral into the ground, then l would say you are right.
l don't think a **** load of power and flight control input will help this one.
Food for thought
halas
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Quite so, halas. How many of us are now wearing clothing "Made in China"? Or refuse non-Oz products, even if it means paying a little more?
Where was the monitor that yoiu're currently reading from made?
But we justify this, by saying, "Well if they couldn't be competitive on the world stage, then they don't deserve a place."
There has been a cultural transition in the area of personal living that has simultaneously altered our mindset wrt the workplace as well.
"Cheaper" has become the status quo, even if it means discarding, and replacing the product more frequently.
Like the Japanese, we are becoming a "throw-away" society.
I wonder how many of you are aware that the Japanese are very much seasonally "orientated", to the degree that clothing is usually worn only during the seasonal year in which it is produced, and then thrown away. Cars are "old" after 3 years.
Likewise, pets eg. tortoises, fish, lizards, and perhaps birds, and plants, are likewise thought of as "seasonal" and easily dispensable.
I believe that this approach is not dissimilar in many of the "low cost" operators, and especially wrt cabin crew.
We have had it instilled in us over the past decade and a half that everyone should "look after ONLY himself (and his family)", and disregard group welfare.
Now - as a group - we are paying for this, as we are picked off, one-by-one....the others too afraid to speak out in case THEY are next.
Dog eat dog.
And you ask, "What can WE do about it?", Col?
Anarchy was introduced into the Australian aviation system some time back, and on a worldwide scale it is spreading at an unchecked rate. The looters are ripping out whatever they can.
But hell - who cares?
Only those who have been robbed to date.
The building's been/being gutted with no regard for the future except for a few small shanties erected nearby - shanties that can be collapsed in a few hours if need be!
Shanties that can afford ONLY part-time labour, and have no commitment to the future!
Where was the monitor that yoiu're currently reading from made?
But we justify this, by saying, "Well if they couldn't be competitive on the world stage, then they don't deserve a place."
There has been a cultural transition in the area of personal living that has simultaneously altered our mindset wrt the workplace as well.
"Cheaper" has become the status quo, even if it means discarding, and replacing the product more frequently.
Like the Japanese, we are becoming a "throw-away" society.
I wonder how many of you are aware that the Japanese are very much seasonally "orientated", to the degree that clothing is usually worn only during the seasonal year in which it is produced, and then thrown away. Cars are "old" after 3 years.
Likewise, pets eg. tortoises, fish, lizards, and perhaps birds, and plants, are likewise thought of as "seasonal" and easily dispensable.
I believe that this approach is not dissimilar in many of the "low cost" operators, and especially wrt cabin crew.
We have had it instilled in us over the past decade and a half that everyone should "look after ONLY himself (and his family)", and disregard group welfare.
Now - as a group - we are paying for this, as we are picked off, one-by-one....the others too afraid to speak out in case THEY are next.
Dog eat dog.
And you ask, "What can WE do about it?", Col?
Anarchy was introduced into the Australian aviation system some time back, and on a worldwide scale it is spreading at an unchecked rate. The looters are ripping out whatever they can.
But hell - who cares?
Only those who have been robbed to date.
The building's been/being gutted with no regard for the future except for a few small shanties erected nearby - shanties that can be collapsed in a few hours if need be!
Shanties that can afford ONLY part-time labour, and have no commitment to the future!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Aust
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kapt M, how do you reconcile your thoughts on the downward pressures on pilot wages/conditions with your support for Virgin Blue? In particular I recall you posting (and I am paraphrasing) that the original pilots for Virgin Blue should be commended for accepting well below award wages as it demonstrated their commitment to Oz aviation. Not going for a **** stir here.
IMO the current pressure on pilot wages in Oz commenced with the entry of Impulse and Virgin as LC Carriers into the domestic market. I can’t recall any concerted downward pressure applied to pilot wages/conditions before this time.
IMO the current pressure on pilot wages in Oz commenced with the entry of Impulse and Virgin as LC Carriers into the domestic market. I can’t recall any concerted downward pressure applied to pilot wages/conditions before this time.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
My commendation was based on the fact that many of the VB guys had shown their commitment to Australian aviation by leaving higher remunerated jobs in many cases, to return home to help a brand new airline become established.
The greatest blows to Australian pilots' conditions occurred with the splintering of the unified pilots, via the removal of the AFAP - initially, voluntarily, with the breakaway formation of AIPA by QANTAS pilots, and later, via the companies and the (Labour) government, with the consent and assistance of the ACTU.
The greatest blows to Australian pilots' conditions occurred with the splintering of the unified pilots, via the removal of the AFAP - initially, voluntarily, with the breakaway formation of AIPA by QANTAS pilots, and later, via the companies and the (Labour) government, with the consent and assistance of the ACTU.
My commendation was based on the fact that many of the VB guys had shown their commitment to Australian aviation by leaving higher remunerated jobs in many cases, to return home to help a brand new airline become established.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
"....many of the VB guys had shown their commitment to Australian aviation by leaving higher remunerated jobs in many cases, to return home.."
That's how!
10 out of 10 for trying, Wiz - VERY trying!
That's how!
10 out of 10 for trying, Wiz - VERY trying!
Well Kap, I guess that shows your commitment to JAPANESE aviation. It feeds your family, but apart from that you couldn't care less about giving the Japanese the benefits you claim VB gives to Australia.
Unless they're YOUR MATES coming back from lucrative overseas jobs to a modest (but HEY our super is sown up) income queering the pitch for generations of pilots to come.
Funny how EVERYONE is wrong except the guys you supported in '89 (Oh, except when you put in THAT application...).
Imo, the crunch will come later on when individuals begin to realise that it simply isn't worth spending vast sums of money to enter what used to be a "profession", for the meagre returns.
Funny how EVERYONE is wrong except the guys you supported in '89 (Oh, except when you put in THAT application...).
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
You're off on a tangent, Wiz, but that is par for the course with you.
Are you deliberately trying to have this thread chopped by airing 1989 issues that you KNOW incur the "wrath of the gods"? I have said it before, but for your benefit I'll say it again, son, if you want to have a discussion in that area, start a separate thread!
Australian pilots were well organised for several decades prior to events of THAT particular year.
With the assistance of a minority of the then incumbents, and "blow-ins" (who have since blown away again) the ordered system was deliberately destroyed by the then airline management and government. Thank you for that, Wiz & ilk!
For pilots to start the climb BACK to where they were, some 14 years earlier, those who are there now have the job of COMPLETELY re-building that which was destroyed.
Are you deliberately trying to have this thread chopped by airing 1989 issues that you KNOW incur the "wrath of the gods"? I have said it before, but for your benefit I'll say it again, son, if you want to have a discussion in that area, start a separate thread!
Australian pilots were well organised for several decades prior to events of THAT particular year.
With the assistance of a minority of the then incumbents, and "blow-ins" (who have since blown away again) the ordered system was deliberately destroyed by the then airline management and government. Thank you for that, Wiz & ilk!
For pilots to start the climb BACK to where they were, some 14 years earlier, those who are there now have the job of COMPLETELY re-building that which was destroyed.
halas.
Your theory is correct but conclusion is not correct:
"If this looks to you like a tighter and tighter spiral into the ground, then l would say you are right."
It is human nature to seek the lowest cost, whether it be a caveman bargaining in food, modern man seeking the lowest airfare or a corporation take over.
It's called capitalism and has existed since man evolved! It is effectively the basis on which our society is built and continues to prosper.
The important factors for an individual to seek and measure are:
Improved health and life style.
Accumulation of wealth through greater disposeable income.
Rather than concentrating solely on weekly income, perhaps you should be judging your wealth in terms of those two factors.
I suspect a pilot's lot generally is improving (in terms of life style and wealth creation), although possibly not as rapidly as (for example) an IT professional or corporate executive. However as in the past, the pendulum will swing and pilots will again enjoy accelerated income at some time in the future.
Your theory is correct but conclusion is not correct:
"If this looks to you like a tighter and tighter spiral into the ground, then l would say you are right."
It is human nature to seek the lowest cost, whether it be a caveman bargaining in food, modern man seeking the lowest airfare or a corporation take over.
It's called capitalism and has existed since man evolved! It is effectively the basis on which our society is built and continues to prosper.
The important factors for an individual to seek and measure are:
Improved health and life style.
Accumulation of wealth through greater disposeable income.
Rather than concentrating solely on weekly income, perhaps you should be judging your wealth in terms of those two factors.
I suspect a pilot's lot generally is improving (in terms of life style and wealth creation), although possibly not as rapidly as (for example) an IT professional or corporate executive. However as in the past, the pendulum will swing and pilots will again enjoy accelerated income at some time in the future.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Cambodia
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kap & Wiz!! Please keep it down fellas!
I realise that there is a lot of history that leads us to this point - but the whole point of this topic is to encourage a pseudo 'think-tank' for professionals and other interested parties involved in the aviation industry.
We need SOLUTIONS folks, SOLUTIONS. Not bitter recriminations.
What can WE do as professionals do to stop the downward spiral??
And another question, what are you/we doing to prevent this getting worse?
We need SOLUTIONS folks, SOLUTIONS. Not bitter recriminations.
What can WE do as professionals do to stop the downward spiral??
And another question, what are you/we doing to prevent this getting worse?
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: various
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well....I suggest boycotting JC, and Sneeky's Pathetic-blu start up!
What a bunch of a$$wipes!
The popular justification for joining these pirates is to 'get time on a jet, and leave for something better'
....and I submit to you that 'leave' means 'leave the industry payscale in ruins'
....and 'something better' just wont be there when you get out!
Dont do it! It's rape!
What a bunch of a$$wipes!
The popular justification for joining these pirates is to 'get time on a jet, and leave for something better'
....and I submit to you that 'leave' means 'leave the industry payscale in ruins'
....and 'something better' just wont be there when you get out!
Dont do it! It's rape!