Erosion of Pay and Conditions - What are we doing about it?
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Now we have First Officers advertised in Flying Magazine with 430 hours saying that 18 months ago they couldn't fly and now they are, "airline pilots". They have absolutely now foundation in basic aircraft fundamentals and have never made a command decision in their lives. The damage may not be fully realised until we have another bad year of airline crashes involving fresh upgrades in three or four years time.
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Interesting amos. No strike, there fore no scabs.
As for erosion of pay and conditonhs, the cp of VB, and he alone is responsible for the biggest single step downwards. He traded our salaries for his shares, and now, if we can believe the in house rumours, his shares are worth upwards of $12 Million. He's the guilty one, not the employer. If he hadn't offered the deal to tricky dicky, then Branson would probablyh have paid more thinking he had to just to get pilots.
Ralph, nice thought but won't work. Many will not turn theri backs on a jet job even if it's paying 50 grand and they have to buy their endorsement. Sad fact of life mate, but again, human nature.
Can somebody tell me the solution?
As for erosion of pay and conditonhs, the cp of VB, and he alone is responsible for the biggest single step downwards. He traded our salaries for his shares, and now, if we can believe the in house rumours, his shares are worth upwards of $12 Million. He's the guilty one, not the employer. If he hadn't offered the deal to tricky dicky, then Branson would probablyh have paid more thinking he had to just to get pilots.
Ralph, nice thought but won't work. Many will not turn theri backs on a jet job even if it's paying 50 grand and they have to buy their endorsement. Sad fact of life mate, but again, human nature.
Can somebody tell me the solution?
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It's time to cut to the chase....
Alright guys, let's get real here!
We all have a right to feed ourselves and our families. We all have a right to a financially sustainable job with a carrier that provides for more than five years worth of employment. Compass I, II, Horizon and even Ansett are examples of what can go wrong if it is not done right.
As pilots, we don't have the right to leave a wake of rubble behind us as we shoot the entire industry in the foot to get ahead of the next guy. Unfortunately, the guys at Impulse that paid for a job to fly a weed-whacker with wings on it, did just that!
Now I see that Qantas wants to do "outside" recruitment for it's new LCC. I think that anyone who has observed the industry, understands that they are engaging in an industrial experiment to see just how low pilots will go to get a job.
Such behavior, if tolerated by the industry at large, further degrades the potential for a financially viable future at the end of a long road of a burdensome gamble, by those that are coming up.
As you see the economics at play here, eventually you will see lower experience levels in the cockpit and lower "smarts" on the players that occupy those same places. Ask me how I know?
As Australians, you stand at a crossroads in the way that you view yourselves as pilots and as the general public will view you for perhaps the rest of time.
The independent employment contracts I have heard of sound like little more than indentured servitude and should be challenged by a large scale national union drive. You should strive to have your type training costs recovered as part of a future collective bargaining agreement.
A national union means just that. If you all go out, nobody goes back, including QF mainline/international. Anyone who scabs should be nationally blacklisted and left to spend their dying days flying a Cessna 206 in Kununurra.
To VB Captn. I think you did the best you could with the conditions that you have found yourself in. You simply had nothing left to do, and it's understandable that you would work for tricky. I am sure you would have been even happier to do so, if there had been a unionised contract that prohibited you from parting with money you probably didn't even own.
To the guys that went to Impulse, and paid that money to jump on a Beechcraft and work for a financially unsustainable employer?
They got very lucky, they gambled and won for themselves, but in the process lost a traditional benefit of working for an airline for everyone else...not having to pay for training.
National unions, national contracts, scab lists and legal representaion that works. This can only be done with an effective nationally recognised union!
Now do I have to come back there?
We all have a right to feed ourselves and our families. We all have a right to a financially sustainable job with a carrier that provides for more than five years worth of employment. Compass I, II, Horizon and even Ansett are examples of what can go wrong if it is not done right.
As pilots, we don't have the right to leave a wake of rubble behind us as we shoot the entire industry in the foot to get ahead of the next guy. Unfortunately, the guys at Impulse that paid for a job to fly a weed-whacker with wings on it, did just that!
Now I see that Qantas wants to do "outside" recruitment for it's new LCC. I think that anyone who has observed the industry, understands that they are engaging in an industrial experiment to see just how low pilots will go to get a job.
Such behavior, if tolerated by the industry at large, further degrades the potential for a financially viable future at the end of a long road of a burdensome gamble, by those that are coming up.
As you see the economics at play here, eventually you will see lower experience levels in the cockpit and lower "smarts" on the players that occupy those same places. Ask me how I know?
As Australians, you stand at a crossroads in the way that you view yourselves as pilots and as the general public will view you for perhaps the rest of time.
The independent employment contracts I have heard of sound like little more than indentured servitude and should be challenged by a large scale national union drive. You should strive to have your type training costs recovered as part of a future collective bargaining agreement.
A national union means just that. If you all go out, nobody goes back, including QF mainline/international. Anyone who scabs should be nationally blacklisted and left to spend their dying days flying a Cessna 206 in Kununurra.
To VB Captn. I think you did the best you could with the conditions that you have found yourself in. You simply had nothing left to do, and it's understandable that you would work for tricky. I am sure you would have been even happier to do so, if there had been a unionised contract that prohibited you from parting with money you probably didn't even own.
To the guys that went to Impulse, and paid that money to jump on a Beechcraft and work for a financially unsustainable employer?
They got very lucky, they gambled and won for themselves, but in the process lost a traditional benefit of working for an airline for everyone else...not having to pay for training.
National unions, national contracts, scab lists and legal representaion that works. This can only be done with an effective nationally recognised union!
Now do I have to come back there?
Last edited by Chris Higgins; 1st Nov 2003 at 00:47.
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Chris, all nice stuff, but, and I do not want to offend you, just rhetoric. the days of union solidarity are done except amongst the wharfies, and painters and dockers, where they kill eachoither if they break ranks.
I wish there was a national union too, and that they would all go out, and stay out, but it will never be and human nature will take care of that.
Scab lists don't work either. We were told back in 89 that if you scabbed you would never work anywhere in the world as a pilot. Well what (more) bull$hit that was. Scabs now hold jobs all round the world.
Back to the CP of VB. He's the traitor here and the one who sold pilots in Australia down the drain. What did I say about human nature??
And now I hear (this is a rumour network) that Brian Mc Carthy will be the CP of Pacific Blue. What hypocrisy!!!!!!!!!
I wish there was a national union too, and that they would all go out, and stay out, but it will never be and human nature will take care of that.
Scab lists don't work either. We were told back in 89 that if you scabbed you would never work anywhere in the world as a pilot. Well what (more) bull$hit that was. Scabs now hold jobs all round the world.
Back to the CP of VB. He's the traitor here and the one who sold pilots in Australia down the drain. What did I say about human nature??
And now I hear (this is a rumour network) that Brian Mc Carthy will be the CP of Pacific Blue. What hypocrisy!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by VB_Capt; 1st Nov 2003 at 10:38.
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Chris, I happen to agree totally with your sentiment.
BUT
1. A union is only a strong as its members. So how do you force what are inherently self seeking selfish people into a collective?
2. What do you do stop stem the tide of ever increasing pilots trying to break out of 'measly' GA jobs and their inherent bull$hit conditions? I see and hear alot of 'don't do it', 'don't pay for your training' etc etc from people whose positions are under threat, but whilst they sit in their ivory towers dishing out advice to the 'barbarians at the gate' what are those people doing to assist or help create a better environment at the lower end of the industry to 'stem the tide'.
I'll tell you - nothing, nientes, nados.
As alot of them probably endured similar crap 'that's GA' conditions, they see that as a natural situation that others should suffer as they did, to 'pay their dues'
These same guys who are now at the helm of a jet aren't even actively protecting their own patch. Hence the deafening silence from QF crews invited to express an opinion on the frontline fight they have on their hand.
'Don't make waves'.
Maybe the way of the painters and dockers is the way to go - bet none of them are paying for their job or working for worsening conditions.
BUT
1. A union is only a strong as its members. So how do you force what are inherently self seeking selfish people into a collective?
2. What do you do stop stem the tide of ever increasing pilots trying to break out of 'measly' GA jobs and their inherent bull$hit conditions? I see and hear alot of 'don't do it', 'don't pay for your training' etc etc from people whose positions are under threat, but whilst they sit in their ivory towers dishing out advice to the 'barbarians at the gate' what are those people doing to assist or help create a better environment at the lower end of the industry to 'stem the tide'.
I'll tell you - nothing, nientes, nados.
As alot of them probably endured similar crap 'that's GA' conditions, they see that as a natural situation that others should suffer as they did, to 'pay their dues'
These same guys who are now at the helm of a jet aren't even actively protecting their own patch. Hence the deafening silence from QF crews invited to express an opinion on the frontline fight they have on their hand.
'Don't make waves'.
Maybe the way of the painters and dockers is the way to go - bet none of them are paying for their job or working for worsening conditions.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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With all due respect to you VB Capt; It sounds like you have given up on even hoping that the situation would improve.
How did the old saying go? 'If you think that you are beaten, you are!'
I have been out of full time flying for over 12 years and only earlier this year after a lot of effort did I manage to get a 'foot back in the door' and now, albeit only very occasionally do I get a chance to ferry a Chieftain around the countryside.
Many times I have been advised to give up.
Not until they put me in the ground!!!!
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
How did the old saying go? 'If you think that you are beaten, you are!'
I have been out of full time flying for over 12 years and only earlier this year after a lot of effort did I manage to get a 'foot back in the door' and now, albeit only very occasionally do I get a chance to ferry a Chieftain around the countryside.
Many times I have been advised to give up.
Not until they put me in the ground!!!!
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
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I actually agree....
You are actually all right!
VB Captain, you are correct in saying that you were betrayed by your fellow pilots that crossed the line at Ansett and by an industry that lost it's way since the end of 1989. Nobody denies that...Colonel you're right in saying that it's terrible in General Aviation and the conditions may only get worse there, with aging aircraft, expensive fuel and restrictive authorities. Pinky, you're right by saying you should never give up!
My question to you is where is it going to end? How do you want to leave the industry when you retire?
I could have jumped the line and crossed in 1989, I could have paid for a commuter job here Stateside anytime during the early nineties. I didn't!
I flight instructed, flew air-ambulance in Cessna twins and Navajos and went to night school and did a Bachelor of Science Degree. I'm 35 now. I have seven type ratings and am a domestic and international captain flying bizjets for the world's largest employer of pilots in this field, Netjets. I've never paid for a job.
The answer to the question I have asked lay in the individual that chooses to answer it. Nobody can tell anyone what the answer is. We have to agree on a common solution though.
Unions can be made to work with the right kind of leadership, the membership must decide who that leader should be, and when the time comes, he or she, will be obvious to everyone.
I won't be able to read this post for several weeks. I have to do some test flying in Arkansas tomorrow, then next week I go back to Australia to handle some financial dealings in Port Macquarie, please don't think I am being absent in my concerns.
Sincerely,
Chris
VB Captain, you are correct in saying that you were betrayed by your fellow pilots that crossed the line at Ansett and by an industry that lost it's way since the end of 1989. Nobody denies that...Colonel you're right in saying that it's terrible in General Aviation and the conditions may only get worse there, with aging aircraft, expensive fuel and restrictive authorities. Pinky, you're right by saying you should never give up!
My question to you is where is it going to end? How do you want to leave the industry when you retire?
I could have jumped the line and crossed in 1989, I could have paid for a commuter job here Stateside anytime during the early nineties. I didn't!
I flight instructed, flew air-ambulance in Cessna twins and Navajos and went to night school and did a Bachelor of Science Degree. I'm 35 now. I have seven type ratings and am a domestic and international captain flying bizjets for the world's largest employer of pilots in this field, Netjets. I've never paid for a job.
The answer to the question I have asked lay in the individual that chooses to answer it. Nobody can tell anyone what the answer is. We have to agree on a common solution though.
Unions can be made to work with the right kind of leadership, the membership must decide who that leader should be, and when the time comes, he or she, will be obvious to everyone.
I won't be able to read this post for several weeks. I have to do some test flying in Arkansas tomorrow, then next week I go back to Australia to handle some financial dealings in Port Macquarie, please don't think I am being absent in my concerns.
Sincerely,
Chris
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One of Dick Holt's sons is running for the Presidency of AIPA and it looks like he will get it and lead a new generation of Airline Pilots.
Cut from the same cloth as Dick and a true leader.
Should be very interesting times.
Cut from the same cloth as Dick and a true leader.
Should be very interesting times.
Last edited by Agent Mulder; 1st Nov 2003 at 20:13.
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chris higgins, I wasn't betrayed by my fellowpilots at Ansett. I wasn't ansett.
I wish I had been one of the onesdoiung the 'betraying'. At least then I would have had a good salary for 12 years and not have been working for a flyblown outfit like this.
Pinky, I haven't given up but I do despair of ever seeing things here change. Now that Brian Mc carthy (if true that he's CP of PB)is 'leading the charge' as Wiz of OZ says elsewhere in further reducing pilots' salaries, it doesn't look good for the future. The only light on the horizon is that if Skimpy offers more than VB, then they'll bail out of here like rats off a sinking ship. Those guys from Jetconnect might bail in to fill the void. Freedom's pilots hate their company, so they may move to Jetconnect, but hopefully somwehere along the way, those paying not much might be inclined to up the stakes. Who knows though?
I wish I had been one of the onesdoiung the 'betraying'. At least then I would have had a good salary for 12 years and not have been working for a flyblown outfit like this.
Pinky, I haven't given up but I do despair of ever seeing things here change. Now that Brian Mc carthy (if true that he's CP of PB)is 'leading the charge' as Wiz of OZ says elsewhere in further reducing pilots' salaries, it doesn't look good for the future. The only light on the horizon is that if Skimpy offers more than VB, then they'll bail out of here like rats off a sinking ship. Those guys from Jetconnect might bail in to fill the void. Freedom's pilots hate their company, so they may move to Jetconnect, but hopefully somwehere along the way, those paying not much might be inclined to up the stakes. Who knows though?
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Agent Mulder,
I'm not sure I feel the same way about the late Dick Hotl at you do. Sure, he achieved a lot for the AFAP, but I think that mostly he was just in theright place at the right time. Everything was in place, airlines had to keep flying and were almost happy to cave in to demands to ensure that. It's not a put down of dick, but I think he gets credit for many results that really were in the pipeline anyway. Strong chapter in AFAP industrial historuy though.
Bit like turbo tie Strong at QF. He came to the job just as many previous initiatives were bearing fruit, and of course took the credit. Who wouldn't??
I'm not sure I feel the same way about the late Dick Hotl at you do. Sure, he achieved a lot for the AFAP, but I think that mostly he was just in theright place at the right time. Everything was in place, airlines had to keep flying and were almost happy to cave in to demands to ensure that. It's not a put down of dick, but I think he gets credit for many results that really were in the pipeline anyway. Strong chapter in AFAP industrial historuy though.
Bit like turbo tie Strong at QF. He came to the job just as many previous initiatives were bearing fruit, and of course took the credit. Who wouldn't??
