Erosion of Pay and Conditions - What are we doing about it?
United we bargain.
Divided we beg.
Divided we beg.
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All these pages have said is "remember the days" "we'll all be rooned" and I know what will happen tomorrow because I saw yesterday.
If we were all that smart we would be the ones sitting in the back of the GV sucking on fizz not flying through it.
The ship sank, get over it. Get on with tomorrow with excitement and trepadation. Remember, they can't hurt you, and you still get to see tomorrow.
If we were all that smart we would be the ones sitting in the back of the GV sucking on fizz not flying through it.
The ship sank, get over it. Get on with tomorrow with excitement and trepadation. Remember, they can't hurt you, and you still get to see tomorrow.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Transition Layer; You said it all!! The point that many on these pages have tried to make on many occasions was very neatly summed up in your two consise phrases.
And unless someone can provide an effective alternative, IMHO the only group/organisation is AFAP. However there appears to be dissent on this subject from some quarters.
Any comments anyone??
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
And unless someone can provide an effective alternative, IMHO the only group/organisation is AFAP. However there appears to be dissent on this subject from some quarters.
Any comments anyone??
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
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Well, what can you say?...
You read that self serving nonsence that VB capt writes and you really do have to shake your head in wonder.
When will these naive, immature people ever grow up?
Probably never!...
Back to the jetty for a spot of fishing!
You read that self serving nonsence that VB capt writes and you really do have to shake your head in wonder.
When will these naive, immature people ever grow up?
Probably never!...
Back to the jetty for a spot of fishing!
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I'll tell you what we are doing about it
NOTHING!
We continue to shaft each other and under cut our workmates.
Common guys lets stick together and don't shaft each other and don't lay down and let operators "give you some hours for free"
Yes fly for them but remember in other industries employers do have to pay their staff.
I had one person (who I shall not name) suggest that I offer a potentail employer that I work for him for a 50% salary cut (that would mean that I would have been on $15000 a year) I get more driving a truck!!
lets not do that to each other guys?
I haven't read all the other posts they are probably just a mass of hot air but I put my 2 cents in anyway
We continue to shaft each other and under cut our workmates.
Common guys lets stick together and don't shaft each other and don't lay down and let operators "give you some hours for free"
Yes fly for them but remember in other industries employers do have to pay their staff.
I had one person (who I shall not name) suggest that I offer a potentail employer that I work for him for a 50% salary cut (that would mean that I would have been on $15000 a year) I get more driving a truck!!
lets not do that to each other guys?
I haven't read all the other posts they are probably just a mass of hot air but I put my 2 cents in anyway
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I learn't some time ago to look after one person - me.
The lessons of 89' prove that there is no such thing as solidarity amongst pilots, and that was in an era where solidarity meant far more than it does today.
You can carry on all you like about forming a 'new' 89 style all encompassing body of pilots, but at the end of the day, when the excrement hits the fan watch it all disintegrate.
I think it far more practical to accept the facts and look at ways to harness that.
Like most other professionals, maybe we should look at more mobility as a thing of the future. The best man for the job etc.
At the end of the day most other professionals do not seem to need unions or solidarity to command large salaries. A free system of movement between employers would encourage employers to retain staff or face more training or downtime. Ultimately, the better qualified and capable would gravitate to the better employers and so on. This is the way of the rest of the world, why should aviation be different.
Or else we can protect those who are insecure in their positions by forming mega unions to hide them in.
The lessons of 89' prove that there is no such thing as solidarity amongst pilots, and that was in an era where solidarity meant far more than it does today.
You can carry on all you like about forming a 'new' 89 style all encompassing body of pilots, but at the end of the day, when the excrement hits the fan watch it all disintegrate.
I think it far more practical to accept the facts and look at ways to harness that.
Like most other professionals, maybe we should look at more mobility as a thing of the future. The best man for the job etc.
At the end of the day most other professionals do not seem to need unions or solidarity to command large salaries. A free system of movement between employers would encourage employers to retain staff or face more training or downtime. Ultimately, the better qualified and capable would gravitate to the better employers and so on. This is the way of the rest of the world, why should aviation be different.
Or else we can protect those who are insecure in their positions by forming mega unions to hide them in.
How true, longjohn. The concept of union loyalty is a thing of the past. Modern life is far is far too competitive to expect the masses to linger at the level of the weakest link.
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Careful longjohn and torres or you will be accused of being self serving.
Unionism in recent years (till about 14 years ago) was like religion in the middle ages. It kept people on a straight path; sort of. Education was its greatest enemy and when people became educated to the fact thast the union couldnt cut your throat because you defied it, then it was all over for unions. When people became more educated a hundred and more years ago they saw through the religion myth. When you're dead, you're dead, no sitting at the righ hand of God the Father etc. Just dead. If you get comfort from think ing otherwiuse, OK, I don't intend offending you.
I like your pitch longjohn. Look after yourself mate, just like those senior pricks diod back in 89. They bolted early and got the jobs overseas while the rest of us drifted around in the wilderness, some of uis for years.
Look after yourself and your family because the union and your mates will not, and any realiustic thnker wouldn't expect his mates to.
torres you're on the money too mate. I should have thought like you many years ago instead of being led by the bloody nose by a bunch of self serving pricks. Macca and his mates holding centre stage and enjoying their 15 minutes of madness , sorry fame.
robair I don't suggest you should work for nothing, but I can guarantee you that somebody welse will and if that amounts to getting shafted, then you will get shafted. How do you fix it? F..k..d if I know, but what I do know is that unionism isn't the answer in 2001, or 2002 etyc Unionism and incomes are commerciually driven. Good times = stronger unions and good slaries because the boss can afford to let it be that way. Tough times and you get screwed. Whatever, you won't get more than the management want you to get. Strong unions were also before the days of % bonuses for bosses. The more you save us the more you get mentality. Are you going to get screwed under that scenario? Bet your ar5e you will.
Read what i said elsewhere. Salaried GPs are working for 70 grand a year and thats more than a 40 hour week, closer to 50. They are walking over eachother to take it. , Unionism?? Solidarity?? Lack of professiounal ethics?? No just a bloody job, too few of them and too many looking. You reckon the AMA gives a damn?
Incidentally I was talkiung with a Japanese pilot last week, All Nippon 747-400 capt, and he said they are being paid not much over half what they were ifve years ago. Still strugghling at about A$320,000 a year though and low taxes. It's not isolated to Australia. We're just one of the last to go through it.
Unionism in recent years (till about 14 years ago) was like religion in the middle ages. It kept people on a straight path; sort of. Education was its greatest enemy and when people became educated to the fact thast the union couldnt cut your throat because you defied it, then it was all over for unions. When people became more educated a hundred and more years ago they saw through the religion myth. When you're dead, you're dead, no sitting at the righ hand of God the Father etc. Just dead. If you get comfort from think ing otherwiuse, OK, I don't intend offending you.
I like your pitch longjohn. Look after yourself mate, just like those senior pricks diod back in 89. They bolted early and got the jobs overseas while the rest of us drifted around in the wilderness, some of uis for years.
Look after yourself and your family because the union and your mates will not, and any realiustic thnker wouldn't expect his mates to.
torres you're on the money too mate. I should have thought like you many years ago instead of being led by the bloody nose by a bunch of self serving pricks. Macca and his mates holding centre stage and enjoying their 15 minutes of madness , sorry fame.
robair I don't suggest you should work for nothing, but I can guarantee you that somebody welse will and if that amounts to getting shafted, then you will get shafted. How do you fix it? F..k..d if I know, but what I do know is that unionism isn't the answer in 2001, or 2002 etyc Unionism and incomes are commerciually driven. Good times = stronger unions and good slaries because the boss can afford to let it be that way. Tough times and you get screwed. Whatever, you won't get more than the management want you to get. Strong unions were also before the days of % bonuses for bosses. The more you save us the more you get mentality. Are you going to get screwed under that scenario? Bet your ar5e you will.
Read what i said elsewhere. Salaried GPs are working for 70 grand a year and thats more than a 40 hour week, closer to 50. They are walking over eachother to take it. , Unionism?? Solidarity?? Lack of professiounal ethics?? No just a bloody job, too few of them and too many looking. You reckon the AMA gives a damn?
Incidentally I was talkiung with a Japanese pilot last week, All Nippon 747-400 capt, and he said they are being paid not much over half what they were ifve years ago. Still strugghling at about A$320,000 a year though and low taxes. It's not isolated to Australia. We're just one of the last to go through it.
Last edited by VB_Capt; 30th Sep 2003 at 07:55.
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What’s difficult to see here?
Airline management will naturally do everything within their power to drive pilot salaries as low as possible.
Why do you think they spent hundreds of millions of dollars in ’89 to destroy the AFAP?
I mean – are we on the same planet here?
If you can’t see that the only way to protect or improve your conditions is through collective bargaining, you might be better off opening a fish-and-chip shop!
Looking after yourself might work in the short term but as “VB Capt” and his ilk found, you’ll find yourself shafted in the long run.
This topic has to be one of the biggest “no-brainers” of all time!!
Airline management will naturally do everything within their power to drive pilot salaries as low as possible.
Why do you think they spent hundreds of millions of dollars in ’89 to destroy the AFAP?
I mean – are we on the same planet here?
If you can’t see that the only way to protect or improve your conditions is through collective bargaining, you might be better off opening a fish-and-chip shop!
Looking after yourself might work in the short term but as “VB Capt” and his ilk found, you’ll find yourself shafted in the long run.
This topic has to be one of the biggest “no-brainers” of all time!!
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Why do you think they spent hundreds of millions of dollars in ’89 to destroy the AFAP?
Waiving of all Air Nav charges for five long months, hiring RAAF aircraft,hiring foreign aircraft and crews and administration costs for fast tracking immigration of foreign scabs.
This was, of course compliments, of R.J. Hawke esq. on behalf of the taxpayers of Australia.
Keep the faith:]
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gww,My ilk? what the f..k are you talking about. I stayed out and was screwed!!! It's not difficult to see foir me. We took on city hall adn got done in a big way.
The point I make is that collective bargaining is fine, but you still onluy get wat the boss wants to give you. If you get something as a result of striking or somethiung else radical, then he can afford to give it to you but was trying you on. If he can't afford it, you won't get it no atter what and striking will achieve nothing except give you a holiday before you go back after loising a weeks pay, or the company folds.
I don't have difficulty with that, but don't lump me in with 'that ilk' as you call them. I have no ill feeling toward those who went back. They were the smarties. If there's a 'that ilk' then it's the foreigners who came here not the guys who went back to previous jobs.
Shafted in the long run? I got shafted in the short run.
The point I make is that collective bargaining is fine, but you still onluy get wat the boss wants to give you. If you get something as a result of striking or somethiung else radical, then he can afford to give it to you but was trying you on. If he can't afford it, you won't get it no atter what and striking will achieve nothing except give you a holiday before you go back after loising a weeks pay, or the company folds.
I don't have difficulty with that, but don't lump me in with 'that ilk' as you call them. I have no ill feeling toward those who went back. They were the smarties. If there's a 'that ilk' then it's the foreigners who came here not the guys who went back to previous jobs.
Shafted in the long run? I got shafted in the short run.
Whiskery. I don’t want to re ignite the 89 thingy again, way too much has been said already, on occasion to the aggravation and wrath of this forum’s moderators.
I totally respect your opinion and have no fixed personal opinions either way on the rights, wrongs or merits of the ’89 dispute or it’s participants.
However, it is my personal opinion - and I believe that opinion is very relevant to the thread title - that the pilots collectively and seriously underestimated the Australian industrial relations scenario in the late 80’s.
In the 50’s and 60’s, Australia had a “tight” labour market with near zero unemployment; high union membership, accepted “closed shop” work practices and an inflexible Award systems – even then the Army were impressed into wharf service to load scrap iron to Japan.
In the late 80’s up to the present, Australia has experienced 6% to 8% unemployment, declining union membership (now down to less than 10% of the work force?), abolition of “closed shop” work practices and flexible collective bargaining arrangements. Pressure on wages, lurks and perks was inevitable, however significant improvement in productivity, standard of living and disposable income has occurred for most Australians, in exchange for abolition of inefficient and restrictive work practices.
Over a few decades, airline pilots accumulated remuneration and benefits which was perceived by the Australian public as excessively generous. Restrictive work practices reduced real “stick time” to 200 to 400 hours per annum. Airline pilot wages rose to many times the national average wage. The lurks and perks were perceived very “generous” and no doubt, were a significant financial burden on the airlines involved.
Those crewing costs could probably be borne by the airlines whilst the two airline duopoly existed. The abolition of the two airline agreement spelt the beginning of the end for lucrative airline jobs.
As air travel in Australia is an essential service, I have no doubt the government of the day colluded with airline management to get passengers and freight moving again. Regardless of which party was in government at the time, the same would probably have occurred. There was little sympathy for the strike by average Australians and the pilots did little to influence public opinion, perception, attitude and sympathy.
In the absence of a more flexible negotiating attitude by pilots and lack of public support, the result was probably inevitable. “Solidarity” was never going to have any impact on the outcome – as history proved.
The airline and pilot scene has changed forever. As inter airline competition heats up, especially from low cost operators, either further erosion of remuneration and benefits will occur, or the existing carriers will face ultimate extinction to low cost models which fulfil the demands of the travelling public – lower fares in exchange for reduced basic services.
I suspect Qantas management are aware Qantas are very exposed, hence their interest in alliances, pressure on reduced wages and conditions – and if all that fails, a metamorphose into a series of low cost operations.
Simply my personal opinion…… Accept my opinion, in the same manner I accept and respect your opinion.
I totally respect your opinion and have no fixed personal opinions either way on the rights, wrongs or merits of the ’89 dispute or it’s participants.
However, it is my personal opinion - and I believe that opinion is very relevant to the thread title - that the pilots collectively and seriously underestimated the Australian industrial relations scenario in the late 80’s.
In the 50’s and 60’s, Australia had a “tight” labour market with near zero unemployment; high union membership, accepted “closed shop” work practices and an inflexible Award systems – even then the Army were impressed into wharf service to load scrap iron to Japan.
In the late 80’s up to the present, Australia has experienced 6% to 8% unemployment, declining union membership (now down to less than 10% of the work force?), abolition of “closed shop” work practices and flexible collective bargaining arrangements. Pressure on wages, lurks and perks was inevitable, however significant improvement in productivity, standard of living and disposable income has occurred for most Australians, in exchange for abolition of inefficient and restrictive work practices.
Over a few decades, airline pilots accumulated remuneration and benefits which was perceived by the Australian public as excessively generous. Restrictive work practices reduced real “stick time” to 200 to 400 hours per annum. Airline pilot wages rose to many times the national average wage. The lurks and perks were perceived very “generous” and no doubt, were a significant financial burden on the airlines involved.
Those crewing costs could probably be borne by the airlines whilst the two airline duopoly existed. The abolition of the two airline agreement spelt the beginning of the end for lucrative airline jobs.
As air travel in Australia is an essential service, I have no doubt the government of the day colluded with airline management to get passengers and freight moving again. Regardless of which party was in government at the time, the same would probably have occurred. There was little sympathy for the strike by average Australians and the pilots did little to influence public opinion, perception, attitude and sympathy.
In the absence of a more flexible negotiating attitude by pilots and lack of public support, the result was probably inevitable. “Solidarity” was never going to have any impact on the outcome – as history proved.
The airline and pilot scene has changed forever. As inter airline competition heats up, especially from low cost operators, either further erosion of remuneration and benefits will occur, or the existing carriers will face ultimate extinction to low cost models which fulfil the demands of the travelling public – lower fares in exchange for reduced basic services.
I suspect Qantas management are aware Qantas are very exposed, hence their interest in alliances, pressure on reduced wages and conditions – and if all that fails, a metamorphose into a series of low cost operations.
Simply my personal opinion…… Accept my opinion, in the same manner I accept and respect your opinion.
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My statement was not an opinion, Torres , it is fact.
The Ghost was under the impression it was Airline funds that were behind financing the worst industrial dispute we have ever had in this country. I was merely putting him straight.
The Ghost was under the impression it was Airline funds that were behind financing the worst industrial dispute we have ever had in this country. I was merely putting him straight.
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This strike you keep referring to Torres...
would you like to expand on that for me?
Having been right in the middle of the period you're referring to I have no recollection of a strike!
would you like to expand on that for me?
Having been right in the middle of the period you're referring to I have no recollection of a strike!
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My 2 cents
The problems did start in Australia with the pilots dispute in 1989. The Hawke government reduced pilots to, "glorified bus drivers", both in the eyes of various airline management and the general public at large. Next on the scene came Impulse and similar smaller commuters who were making people pay for training...similar to the commuters at many operations here in the US.
Pay for Training is simply the worst thing that ever could have happened to our industry. How can we ask for a simple wage structure that feeds a family of four when there are idiots out there that want to front $15,000 a job to be paid only $20,000 a year?
I personally, flew at an air-ambulance outfit for four and a half years and went to fly Jetstream 41s for an operator that didn't enter into employment contracts or make you, "pay to play". I thought by now that there would be a more volatile backlash than there has been.
I was Local Executive Council Safety Chairman for my airline based in JFK when I attended the ALPA National Safety Conference in 1997. I asked Randy Babbit what he was doing about the Regional Jet probem?
"Problem? There's no problem, they won't be around for long, too expensive to operate".
Thanks Randy!!
Now we have First Officers advertised in Flying Magazine with 430 hours saying that 18 months ago they couldn't fly and now they are, "airline pilots". They have absolutely now foundation in basic aircraft fundamentals and have never made a command decision in their lives. The damage may not be fully realised until we have another bad year of airline crashes involving fresh upgrades in three or four years time.
I suggest an immediate blacklisting by all chief pilots of those that have paid for jobs in the past and have not had those costs reimbursed by their employers. Period.
Pay for Training is simply the worst thing that ever could have happened to our industry. How can we ask for a simple wage structure that feeds a family of four when there are idiots out there that want to front $15,000 a job to be paid only $20,000 a year?
I personally, flew at an air-ambulance outfit for four and a half years and went to fly Jetstream 41s for an operator that didn't enter into employment contracts or make you, "pay to play". I thought by now that there would be a more volatile backlash than there has been.
I was Local Executive Council Safety Chairman for my airline based in JFK when I attended the ALPA National Safety Conference in 1997. I asked Randy Babbit what he was doing about the Regional Jet probem?
"Problem? There's no problem, they won't be around for long, too expensive to operate".
Thanks Randy!!
Now we have First Officers advertised in Flying Magazine with 430 hours saying that 18 months ago they couldn't fly and now they are, "airline pilots". They have absolutely now foundation in basic aircraft fundamentals and have never made a command decision in their lives. The damage may not be fully realised until we have another bad year of airline crashes involving fresh upgrades in three or four years time.
I suggest an immediate blacklisting by all chief pilots of those that have paid for jobs in the past and have not had those costs reimbursed by their employers. Period.