Erosion of Pay and Conditions - What are we doing about it?
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Kapt M, the lack of a unified pilot body certainly has allowed the current situation to develop. However IMO the actual downward pressure on wages didn't develop until VB and Impulse entered the market.
Using your reasoning in commending the VB pilots who returned to Oz on less pay; could you argue that a newbie CPL who agrees to work for half pay is demonstrating their commitment to Oz aviation?
Using your reasoning in commending the VB pilots who returned to Oz on less pay; could you argue that a newbie CPL who agrees to work for half pay is demonstrating their commitment to Oz aviation?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Being realistic, bb, what would YOU suggest the solution would have been when VB and Impulse advertised for pilots at the salary they were offering?
The pilots who joined those airlines joined at the "going rate". They didn't undercut, or scab, on any incumbants!
The then existing domestic airlines' pilots were employed on individual contracts - with differing contracts between the airlines, and within the airlines themselves.
Hence there was no industry "standard" per se - again, as a result of the pilots' previous union - that united ALL of the previous FOUR airlines' pilots basically under ONE Award - being scuttled.
Thanks to the AFAP, there is a recognised award for "newbie" CPL's, Instructors, etc.
Currently that does NOT exist for Australian airline pilots, However, I believe that there IS some commitment from many of the Virgin pilots who knew the benefits that existed before, not only for themselves and their families, but for the WHOLE group.
That must be the starting point - the very first step - for taking control of the anarchy that presently reigns......IMO!
The pilots who joined those airlines joined at the "going rate". They didn't undercut, or scab, on any incumbants!
The then existing domestic airlines' pilots were employed on individual contracts - with differing contracts between the airlines, and within the airlines themselves.
Hence there was no industry "standard" per se - again, as a result of the pilots' previous union - that united ALL of the previous FOUR airlines' pilots basically under ONE Award - being scuttled.
Thanks to the AFAP, there is a recognised award for "newbie" CPL's, Instructors, etc.
Currently that does NOT exist for Australian airline pilots, However, I believe that there IS some commitment from many of the Virgin pilots who knew the benefits that existed before, not only for themselves and their families, but for the WHOLE group.
That must be the starting point - the very first step - for taking control of the anarchy that presently reigns......IMO!
Kaptin M
As far as I'm concerned, a decent portion of blame for the poor salaries offered by DJ, and hence the current downward pressure on wages & conditions, can & should be attributed to those at the very top of the DJ organisation, along with the AFAP.
As I understand it, the original core group of aircrew were quite happy to return home to Australia, and accept wage rates that were below the going rate within the Australian industry at the time. Why they did this I don't really understand - perhaps as others here have suggested, they had made quite good money overseas & were willing to sacrifice that in return for the ability to live & work in Australia once again.
However, in doing so, they not only did a great discredit to themselves (as they are now only too well aware) but also managed to 'sell out' the following generation of pilots. Once the precedent had been set by these fellows, the most senior within the company, how was anyone junior to them expected to get a decent wage, in line with the existing market conditions.
As I understand, the rot also involved the AFAP - if they did in fact sanction this wage agreement for DJ pilots. What is the point of having a union if they are going to bend over backwards and sell out their members?
I'm all for stopping the current erosion in terms & conditions for technical crew within the Australian airline industry. However, if this is the behaviour of the most senior & respected pilots, coupled with the primary negotiating union for the pilot body, what chance do we stand?
The ball's in your court...
As far as I'm concerned, a decent portion of blame for the poor salaries offered by DJ, and hence the current downward pressure on wages & conditions, can & should be attributed to those at the very top of the DJ organisation, along with the AFAP.
As I understand it, the original core group of aircrew were quite happy to return home to Australia, and accept wage rates that were below the going rate within the Australian industry at the time. Why they did this I don't really understand - perhaps as others here have suggested, they had made quite good money overseas & were willing to sacrifice that in return for the ability to live & work in Australia once again.
However, in doing so, they not only did a great discredit to themselves (as they are now only too well aware) but also managed to 'sell out' the following generation of pilots. Once the precedent had been set by these fellows, the most senior within the company, how was anyone junior to them expected to get a decent wage, in line with the existing market conditions.
As I understand, the rot also involved the AFAP - if they did in fact sanction this wage agreement for DJ pilots. What is the point of having a union if they are going to bend over backwards and sell out their members?
I'm all for stopping the current erosion in terms & conditions for technical crew within the Australian airline industry. However, if this is the behaviour of the most senior & respected pilots, coupled with the primary negotiating union for the pilot body, what chance do we stand?
The ball's in your court...
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
That would seem to be a pretty naieve point of view you've got there Johnny.
How about we assume the following scenarios prior to VB's start-up.
Richard Branson/Brett Godfrey, "We're going to start up a new airline in Australia - here are the conditions."
AFAP, "Not on those salaries you aren't - they're nowhere NEAR what Ansett (RIP) and QANDOM are paying their pilots. Raise it to at least the same, or else we'll...we'll.....we'll stop ALL pilots from everywhere from joining you. That way you'll NEVER get started!"
Richard Branson/Brett Godfrey, "Thank you for your time. FCUK OFF!
OR,
Richard Branson/Brett Godfrey, "We're going to start up a new airline in Australia - here are the conditions."
AFAP, "Hey fair go - they're nowhere NEAR what Ansett (RIP) and QANDOM are paying their pilots, can't you increase them at all to try to attract some experience back to Australia?"
Richard Branson/Brett Godfrey, "That's it guys - take it or leave it. But what we can offer you is the chance to represent the VB pilots who want you to, and the opportunity to negotiate something better over time. It's either that, or the pilots can be left to fend for themselves, and get whatever scraps we decide to throw them. The ball's in your court."
Don't try to blame the AFAP for the current state of the industry.
All of the moaning and whinging NOW is about how crappy things are compared with how they were BEFORE.......when the AFAP did represent the pilots.
If you want it BACK to that way again, then the answer to the problem sticks out like dog's b@lls!
How about we assume the following scenarios prior to VB's start-up.
Richard Branson/Brett Godfrey, "We're going to start up a new airline in Australia - here are the conditions."
AFAP, "Not on those salaries you aren't - they're nowhere NEAR what Ansett (RIP) and QANDOM are paying their pilots. Raise it to at least the same, or else we'll...we'll.....we'll stop ALL pilots from everywhere from joining you. That way you'll NEVER get started!"
Richard Branson/Brett Godfrey, "Thank you for your time.
FCUK OFF! OR,
Richard Branson/Brett Godfrey, "We're going to start up a new airline in Australia - here are the conditions."
AFAP, "Hey fair go - they're nowhere NEAR what Ansett (RIP) and QANDOM are paying their pilots, can't you increase them at all to try to attract some experience back to Australia?"
Richard Branson/Brett Godfrey, "That's it guys - take it or leave it. But what we can offer you is the chance to represent the VB pilots who want you to, and the opportunity to negotiate something better over time. It's either that, or the pilots can be left to fend for themselves, and get whatever scraps we decide to throw them. The ball's in your court."
Don't try to blame the AFAP for the current state of the industry.
All of the moaning and whinging NOW is about how crappy things are compared with how they were BEFORE.......when the AFAP did represent the pilots.
If you want it BACK to that way again, then the answer to the problem sticks out like dog's b@lls!
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Kapt M,
The QANTAS Short Haul Pilots Award is at:
http://www.wagenet.gov.au/Wagenet/Se...kview=Y&attr=R
The Ansett Pilots Award is at:
http://www.wagenet.gov.au/Wagenet/Se...=0&quickview=Y
I would have thought these would be good starting points to derive the “going rate”.
The QANTAS Short Haul Pilots Award is at:
http://www.wagenet.gov.au/Wagenet/Se...kview=Y&attr=R
The Ansett Pilots Award is at:
http://www.wagenet.gov.au/Wagenet/Se...=0&quickview=Y
I would have thought these would be good starting points to derive the “going rate”.
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unionism...the myth
The pilot body being united (for a time) didn't help in '89 and it didn't help the 49'ers in Cathay either.
The world has moved on from those days, so if you really want to make a stand...start your own airline and pay the crews what you would like to get paid...oh and not go broke doing it at the same time.
The days of the sheltered workshops are indeed over...this fact doesn't seem to have filtered down yet.
If southwest and others pay well, go work for them, you are not chained to your seat there at QF or DJ.
With the outflow of experienced crews airline management will eventually get the message, if not, there will be plenty of jet time for younger guys, who WILL go to those o/s fleets as soon as they can.
Affordable safety...seems that it cuts both ways to the system and the users.
The world has moved on from those days, so if you really want to make a stand...start your own airline and pay the crews what you would like to get paid...oh and not go broke doing it at the same time.
The days of the sheltered workshops are indeed over...this fact doesn't seem to have filtered down yet.
If southwest and others pay well, go work for them, you are not chained to your seat there at QF or DJ.
With the outflow of experienced crews airline management will eventually get the message, if not, there will be plenty of jet time for younger guys, who WILL go to those o/s fleets as soon as they can.
Affordable safety...seems that it cuts both ways to the system and the users.
Kaptin M
Dj started operations at a time when Qantas & Ansett were still operating the exact same aircraft types at much higher rates of pay. As such, there was little incentive (if any) for qualified guys to leave either of these airlines & move to DJ.
Luckily for DJ they were able to find a group of very experienced senior 737 pilots overseas who were willing to do pretty much anything to get back home - even if it meant taking a huge pay reduction, with no real forseeable increase in wages & conditions.
Junior guys new to type (i.e freshly paid for rating) are easy to attract with pretty much any rate of pay - as we can observe. However, without qualified senior C&T personnel, those very same junior guys are of very little use - they can't suddenly become senior captains with a fresh rating. As such, had the senior guys held out for decent wages & conditions, they might have held some bargaining power. (After all, with no senior C&T captains, the airline couldn't have got up & running. Having caved from the very beginning however, they effectively had no bargaining power whatsoever.
Kaptin M - How do you suppose DJ could have trained their crews to the required standards without the support of the senior fellows...? Where were all of the senior 737 C&T guys going to come flocking in from...?
If what you have proposed below is even in the slightest in any way, shape or form representative of how the bargaining process did occcur - then I WILL hold the AFAP at least partly responsible for the current state of the industry. I'm not moaning & groaning about how conditions were pre'89 when all pilots were represented by the AFAP - I'd be more than happy for them to go back to 1998 levels, as they were before the introduction of DJ (especially in light of the re-emergence Australia's current 'back to the future' airline duopoly...)
Dj started operations at a time when Qantas & Ansett were still operating the exact same aircraft types at much higher rates of pay. As such, there was little incentive (if any) for qualified guys to leave either of these airlines & move to DJ.
Luckily for DJ they were able to find a group of very experienced senior 737 pilots overseas who were willing to do pretty much anything to get back home - even if it meant taking a huge pay reduction, with no real forseeable increase in wages & conditions.
Junior guys new to type (i.e freshly paid for rating) are easy to attract with pretty much any rate of pay - as we can observe. However, without qualified senior C&T personnel, those very same junior guys are of very little use - they can't suddenly become senior captains with a fresh rating. As such, had the senior guys held out for decent wages & conditions, they might have held some bargaining power. (After all, with no senior C&T captains, the airline couldn't have got up & running. Having caved from the very beginning however, they effectively had no bargaining power whatsoever.
Kaptin M - How do you suppose DJ could have trained their crews to the required standards without the support of the senior fellows...? Where were all of the senior 737 C&T guys going to come flocking in from...?
If what you have proposed below is even in the slightest in any way, shape or form representative of how the bargaining process did occcur - then I WILL hold the AFAP at least partly responsible for the current state of the industry. I'm not moaning & groaning about how conditions were pre'89 when all pilots were represented by the AFAP - I'd be more than happy for them to go back to 1998 levels, as they were before the introduction of DJ (especially in light of the re-emergence Australia's current 'back to the future' airline duopoly...)
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Well let's just turn the clock back then, and fix everything.
Quite frankly, I don't know how much the "qualified senior C&T personnel" were offered, but I imagine it was probably a reasonable figure for several of the top positions.
But the REALITY of the situation is that R.B. didn't NEED to offer enormous salaries to lure guys back to Australia - the country where Hawke had promised us we would NEVER fly in again. And for pilots who had been "exiled" for over a decade, I guess the well-worn excuse of "I did it for my family", was at least LEGITIMATE this time!
Likewise (and I need to make this point) - the ludicrous salaries paid during the 1989 Dispute were unnecessary, as the companies would STILL have been flooded with applications from overseas pilots who would have loved to have the right to live and work in Oz, together with a generous, interest free housing loan.
Oh, and by the way how many ex-AN pilots applied to VB when Ansett went tittsup?
Just about ALL of them. Just for the priviledge to live in Australia and earn a flying income!
From overseas again, I'd guess...the precedent had already been set, hadn't it. 
How can you "hold the AFAP at least partly responsible for the current state of the industry..", Johnny. What bargaining chips were they left with.
In truth, it was the Ansett and QANTAS pilots who held the strongest hand - had they been united.
Time to ask ourselves:
Where are we now?
Where do we hope to be in say, 3-5 years?
How can we get there?
How REALISTIC are our expectations?
What support do we hope to be able to offer other like-minded individuals?
What can be done to stop the "divide & conquer battle?
Quite frankly, I don't know how much the "qualified senior C&T personnel" were offered, but I imagine it was probably a reasonable figure for several of the top positions.
But the REALITY of the situation is that R.B. didn't NEED to offer enormous salaries to lure guys back to Australia - the country where Hawke had promised us we would NEVER fly in again. And for pilots who had been "exiled" for over a decade, I guess the well-worn excuse of "I did it for my family", was at least LEGITIMATE this time!
Likewise (and I need to make this point) - the ludicrous salaries paid during the 1989 Dispute were unnecessary, as the companies would STILL have been flooded with applications from overseas pilots who would have loved to have the right to live and work in Oz, together with a generous, interest free housing loan.
Oh, and by the way how many ex-AN pilots applied to VB when Ansett went tittsup?
Just about ALL of them. Just for the priviledge to live in Australia and earn a flying income!
How do you suppose DJ could have trained their crews to the required standards without the support of the senior fellows...? Where were all of the senior 737 C&T guys going to come flocking in from...?
How can you "hold the AFAP at least partly responsible for the current state of the industry..", Johnny. What bargaining chips were they left with.
In truth, it was the Ansett and QANTAS pilots who held the strongest hand - had they been united.
Time to ask ourselves:
Where are we now?
Where do we hope to be in say, 3-5 years?
How can we get there?
How REALISTIC are our expectations?
What support do we hope to be able to offer other like-minded individuals?
What can be done to stop the "divide & conquer battle?
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Ralph: an enemy of the corporate state.
Here's a suggestion. I'm not saying that it is terribly workable, but offer it as a starting point: We form a Guild of Pilots. Membership requires CPL or above. It is open to ALL current CPL/ATPL Pilots, heroes and '89ers alike. The Guild takes responsibility for the career path of Guild members. Guild members undertake not to provide any training at a professional level for non-Guild members. ie: Instructor rating or IFR training, conversion to high performance types, ect.. Guild members who break the rules are expelled from the Guild. The Guild dictates a fair salary and conditions to employers, who in turn can employ only Guild members, because we, as technocrats, have them by the balls and will not train anyone who is not a Guild member(got that?). Membership for the Guild will need to be international and universal: all Pilots have a common interest here. Unemployed CPLs only need to sit back and wait for positions to become available in the system and thus have further incentive to wait, knowing that they will eventually be employed(Guild takes care of career path). Senior pilots who break the rules or refuse to join are failed out of the system on their next check ride by loyal Guild members. Loyal Pilots who lose their jobs for adherance to Guild rules are supported financially by the Guild until pressure is brought to bear by other Guild members to have them reinstated. Departmental check pilots are also members of the Guild and we bat for their salaries too. IE: A closed shop of trained technocrats takes over the whole licencing system and gets to dictate OUR terms and conditions to the companies. Isn't that what we want?
Last edited by Ralph the Bong; 16th Sep 2003 at 15:16.
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I know what your sayin Torres, as I said, the suggestion may not be workable. I posted as a starting point for discussion. What is ultimately needed is exploration of said laws(and I'm no expert) and some creative thought on how to over come these sorts of problems. I suggest that the formation of a Guild may circumvent the boycott provisions of the ]Workplace Relations Act[/I] as it is not a union. The senario would be that people would not be prevented from breaking ranks, except that to do so would mean that no-one would train them any further in their career and that loyal Guild members would fail them out of the system at the earliest opportunity. Who could argue with that in court if all expert testimony regarding standards came from Guild members. Think about it... A bit like being in the Mafia. Or the Australian Medical Association.
A bit like being in the Mafia. Or the Australian Medical Association.
Last edited by Ralph the Bong; 16th Sep 2003 at 18:01.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
You mean that you're serious about that proposal, Ralph. I took it as a tongue-in-cheek posting.
So what happens when the inevitable happens, and after 2 years of stagnation, the troops start to break ranks in large numbers?
There is ALREADY an existing organisation, long established, and well versed in pilot matters - the Australian Federation of Air Pilots, quite able to guide pilots through the quagmire.
It's up to individual pilots to make THEIR commitment to their future, and the future of all other Oz pilots by joining the AFAP, and enjoying the benefits and protection it affords them.
So what happens when the inevitable happens, and after 2 years of stagnation, the troops start to break ranks in large numbers?
There is ALREADY an existing organisation, long established, and well versed in pilot matters - the Australian Federation of Air Pilots, quite able to guide pilots through the quagmire.
It's up to individual pilots to make THEIR commitment to their future, and the future of all other Oz pilots by joining the AFAP, and enjoying the benefits and protection it affords them.
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Yeah M, it is slightly tonge in cheek
. But I have sat here reading 2 pages of people defining the problem and no solutions offered. I agree membership of AFAP or a union is essential in todays world simply for the legal protection that it offers. However, in terms of the defence of employee conditions, unions, including AFAP, have failed the common worker dismally. Workers need a new paradigm. I am unsure of what the "inevitable" you refer to is. Could you explain further. I am not sure why Pilots would break ranks if we had a worldwide monopoly on aviation expertise and training. This situation would ensure that we were all on the gravy train for life..
I suggest that we benchmark other similar professions (ie: Doctors) and see how they defend their positions.
. But I have sat here reading 2 pages of people defining the problem and no solutions offered. I agree membership of AFAP or a union is essential in todays world simply for the legal protection that it offers. However, in terms of the defence of employee conditions, unions, including AFAP, have failed the common worker dismally. Workers need a new paradigm. I am unsure of what the "inevitable" you refer to is. Could you explain further. I am not sure why Pilots would break ranks if we had a worldwide monopoly on aviation expertise and training. This situation would ensure that we were all on the gravy train for life.. I suggest that we benchmark other similar professions (ie: Doctors) and see how they defend their positions.
Torres
Yes you are right with what you say about being a true capitalist situation.
But Australia is not a true capitalist state. Indeed it is more socialist than the Liberal party would prefer.
But there lies the problem in Australia.
Plebs and those slightly higher up the food chain (Like pilots ) under the constitution are entitled to vote.
If the state were to reduce Medicare, social security, import tarrifs, visa requirements, then the ruling party of the time would not make it to the next election. Out. Simple as that.
(Unless they introduce them as incidiously as possible so as to fool the masses that it has been around for a while, but they just didn't know it)
So even though it is dog eat dog, it is not to the point of the survival of the fittest.
The strong still have to carry "the burden" of the weak, unless they have a crafty accountant and an insighted lawyer.
So 'tis with this power of the vote, that the meek shall rise and and rule, with the collective power of unions.
Unless of course the unions are in someones pocket and the politicians know just how far they can go without upsetting too many of those that ticked their box at the last ballot.
More food for thought
halas
Yes you are right with what you say about being a true capitalist situation.
But Australia is not a true capitalist state. Indeed it is more socialist than the Liberal party would prefer.
But there lies the problem in Australia.
Plebs and those slightly higher up the food chain (Like pilots
) under the constitution are entitled to vote.If the state were to reduce Medicare, social security, import tarrifs, visa requirements, then the ruling party of the time would not make it to the next election. Out. Simple as that.
(Unless they introduce them as incidiously as possible so as to fool the masses that it has been around for a while, but they just didn't know it)
So even though it is dog eat dog, it is not to the point of the survival of the fittest.
The strong still have to carry "the burden" of the weak, unless they have a crafty accountant and an insighted lawyer.
So 'tis with this power of the vote, that the meek shall rise and and rule, with the collective power of unions.
Unless of course the unions are in someones pocket and the politicians know just how far they can go without upsetting too many of those that ticked their box at the last ballot.
More food for thought
halas
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Ralph, you don't have to be a union to be subject to industrial boycott laws. Also, Doctors are registered under law in Australia and aren't just Doctors because they happen to be members of the AMA. These aren't the real problems with the guild concept though, the biggest flaw would be everyone screwing everyone to get the job they want! Just like now!
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VB Captain, what I am sure you meant to point out is that like in not just 1989 but all previous disputes of substance (including the Superannuation battles for example) an organized pilot body relies on solidarity to achieve anything.
That solidarity is critical and is where airline pilots were let down in 1989, despite promises and secret ballots, by a number of people, the last dozen or two of whom made ALL the difference.
Lets face it, if management/government can RELY on fence jumpers then they can do what they like. Fire union leaders, victimize, arbitrarily change conditions etc. It's happened before and certainly will happen again whenever individual pilots wander across a picket line singing the old refrain "I'm just taking my job back" when what they're really doing is making sure others CAN"T get their jobs back.
That solidarity is critical and is where airline pilots were let down in 1989, despite promises and secret ballots, by a number of people, the last dozen or two of whom made ALL the difference.
Lets face it, if management/government can RELY on fence jumpers then they can do what they like. Fire union leaders, victimize, arbitrarily change conditions etc. It's happened before and certainly will happen again whenever individual pilots wander across a picket line singing the old refrain "I'm just taking my job back" when what they're really doing is making sure others CAN"T get their jobs back.
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I think supply and demand is another issue that is affecting us all. Too many CPL's are being pumped out for employers to pick and choose from. If obtaining this licence was made a little harder then the masses of UGALs (Unemployed GA Losers) would diminish and over a period of time which would eventually lead to some form of "shortage".
I just think that the current system feeds the problem. Is it a coinicidence?
A good topic - good to see the debate staying clean.
I just think that the current system feeds the problem. Is it a coinicidence?
A good topic - good to see the debate staying clean.
halas. Did I hear right today that the Qantas unions had accepted the concept of casual/part time/sub contract labour? Doesn't help your arguement I would think.
Ralph. There is no solution - or - should I say, "What is the problem?"
Purely an observation, but the "problem" being espoused relates to errosion of wages? In the real world of today, all industries and employees are facing the same dilema: either increase productivity or suffer reduced wages.
Ralph. There is no solution - or - should I say, "What is the problem?"
Purely an observation, but the "problem" being espoused relates to errosion of wages? In the real world of today, all industries and employees are facing the same dilema: either increase productivity or suffer reduced wages.