B737NG Rating for DJ
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B737NG Rating for DJ
Where and how much for the B737NG rating? Sick of flying turboprops and don't mind buying the rating. If the new airline is based in Christchurch all the better as there are plenty of cheap houses for sale down that way.
I am also not much of a fan of unions so I can see the pain the likes of me will cause you Aussies.
In New Zealand we don't expect companies to exist for their employees. We have learned the hard and fast rule that people enter these ventures to make cash. I think any company that isn't hard nosed and looking to cut costs is a lost cause.
That hard nosed Southwest airlines has been punching out profits for quarter of a century, including the 911 period. If Pacific Blue can do this then that's job security which is worth plenty. just ask the Ansett people.
I am also not much of a fan of unions so I can see the pain the likes of me will cause you Aussies.
In New Zealand we don't expect companies to exist for their employees. We have learned the hard and fast rule that people enter these ventures to make cash. I think any company that isn't hard nosed and looking to cut costs is a lost cause.
That hard nosed Southwest airlines has been punching out profits for quarter of a century, including the 911 period. If Pacific Blue can do this then that's job security which is worth plenty. just ask the Ansett people.
In the last few days many New Zealanders on Pprune have been hinting at how their industry has learn't the hard way and point toward their model of aviation success.
Give me a bucket. You are cheap labour that is all. Model for success? Have always looked toward New Zealand to see what not to do in aviation.
EG: Your corporate culture that puts a Jumbo into a mountain, non-effective military aviation, a government that bails out/nationalises AirNZ and many more.
Sure, a few will get new jobs but the price at the eventual expense of of AirNZ. Dick will make a fortune if the blocks come tumbling down there!
Give me a bucket. You are cheap labour that is all. Model for success? Have always looked toward New Zealand to see what not to do in aviation.
EG: Your corporate culture that puts a Jumbo into a mountain, non-effective military aviation, a government that bails out/nationalises AirNZ and many more.
Sure, a few will get new jobs but the price at the eventual expense of of AirNZ. Dick will make a fortune if the blocks come tumbling down there!
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Ah, define Jumbo and define mountain, then be very careful.
Me thinks Qantas have had a few accidents in the recent years that they call incidents so they don't lost their claim to fame re no accidents....
The thing about Kiwis work ethic re the Oz one is old news and has been around for years. My old man was told to slow down because he was working (nailing floorboards!!!) too fast for the Aussies on the Kosciosko (?sp) power project way back ('50's). (Ah La the shearers)
Dixon said a few weeks ago (Sun) on Ch 9 "The legacy rates of pay can't continue".
It's those out mode'd work models that shafted Ansett, & Qantas know's it. Todays airlines can ill afford to pay the legacy rates that used to be the norm. As much as we'd like it to be so.
Don't blame the Military thingo (as most of us disagree with her peacenik ideals) on decent Kiwis. Some of us who are ex Mil. are damn ashamed. But those in uniform can't say a thing. We've worked with the aussies and enjoy the interaction. (and competition..)
Many Govt's have bailed out airlines in the last 2 years. At least this year Air NZ returned a profit.
The ONLY Star Alliance member to do so.
Air NZ is the only Airline to successfully combine a Low Cost part with the Full Service option. Another example of the flexibility that they have. (or need to survive)
TIS
However.. Those Unions are very useful and can be damn handy when things don't line up. So don't go shooting yourself in the foot. There are some very good benifits to be had from membership.
To sum up:
Basically, don't compare the two countries on working conditions. They're very different. NZ has the population of Melb. So has no economies of scale re working conditions.
Unfortunately the Oz Airline management have now noticed that.
I see and hear both sides and wish it could be like it was 15 years ago. But alas, the world has changed and the workers aren't as well looked after.
It's a shame as I'd like to (hope to) bring my son up in Aussie due to the better schooling/defence and less PC crap as there is in NZ!
Now give me a few minutes to dive into my (conventional) bomb shelter.
Me thinks Qantas have had a few accidents in the recent years that they call incidents so they don't lost their claim to fame re no accidents....
The thing about Kiwis work ethic re the Oz one is old news and has been around for years. My old man was told to slow down because he was working (nailing floorboards!!!) too fast for the Aussies on the Kosciosko (?sp) power project way back ('50's). (Ah La the shearers)
Dixon said a few weeks ago (Sun) on Ch 9 "The legacy rates of pay can't continue".
It's those out mode'd work models that shafted Ansett, & Qantas know's it. Todays airlines can ill afford to pay the legacy rates that used to be the norm. As much as we'd like it to be so.
Don't blame the Military thingo (as most of us disagree with her peacenik ideals) on decent Kiwis. Some of us who are ex Mil. are damn ashamed. But those in uniform can't say a thing. We've worked with the aussies and enjoy the interaction. (and competition..)
Many Govt's have bailed out airlines in the last 2 years. At least this year Air NZ returned a profit.
The ONLY Star Alliance member to do so.
Air NZ is the only Airline to successfully combine a Low Cost part with the Full Service option. Another example of the flexibility that they have. (or need to survive)
TIS
However.. Those Unions are very useful and can be damn handy when things don't line up. So don't go shooting yourself in the foot. There are some very good benifits to be had from membership.
To sum up:
Basically, don't compare the two countries on working conditions. They're very different. NZ has the population of Melb. So has no economies of scale re working conditions.
Unfortunately the Oz Airline management have now noticed that.
I see and hear both sides and wish it could be like it was 15 years ago. But alas, the world has changed and the workers aren't as well looked after.
It's a shame as I'd like to (hope to) bring my son up in Aussie due to the better schooling/defence and less PC crap as there is in NZ!
Now give me a few minutes to dive into my (conventional) bomb shelter.
We are talking about 737 pilots who were as efficient as regulations permit. Old analogies pointless.
So the wage for an F/O say, doing 800 hours a year, at QF around
the 120K mark.
Virgin Blue brought it down to 80K. Freedom Air further.
And now the new company rumoured to pay not much more than 40K Australian.
All in two years!
The Kiwi's the Phillipinos of Aviation.
So the wage for an F/O say, doing 800 hours a year, at QF around
the 120K mark.
Virgin Blue brought it down to 80K. Freedom Air further.
And now the new company rumoured to pay not much more than 40K Australian.
All in two years!
The Kiwi's the Phillipinos of Aviation.
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Please don't compare shearers to pilot's. The Kiwi shearers did NOT undermine the Oz conditions, they actually enhanced them. They had a better tool of trade and taught us how to use them. The ozzies now make MORE money a day/Year as a result of the introduction of some of the Kiwi methodologies.
Kiwi pilot's can not at this stage make the same claim. I am interested to hear from the Kiwi's as to what they think an appropriate wage is for operating a B737.
TIS you mentioned Southwest. SW pay their pilot's a very good wage. They have not taken a backward step like the one the Kiwi's are accepting. I am very much in favour of the Kiwi's having a robust industry but that does not have to come at the cost of wages. Driving pilot wages down is nothing other than a pathetic attempt by disgruntled bean counters very jealous of our profession. Ask ANy accountant in the airline business what they think of pilots. They deplore our existance! Do date we have not been smart/resolute enough to counter their argument. WHEN the first 737 with a hopelessly undertrained crew finally loses a hull, things will begin to turn.
Kiwi pilot's can not at this stage make the same claim. I am interested to hear from the Kiwi's as to what they think an appropriate wage is for operating a B737.
TIS you mentioned Southwest. SW pay their pilot's a very good wage. They have not taken a backward step like the one the Kiwi's are accepting. I am very much in favour of the Kiwi's having a robust industry but that does not have to come at the cost of wages. Driving pilot wages down is nothing other than a pathetic attempt by disgruntled bean counters very jealous of our profession. Ask ANy accountant in the airline business what they think of pilots. They deplore our existance! Do date we have not been smart/resolute enough to counter their argument. WHEN the first 737 with a hopelessly undertrained crew finally loses a hull, things will begin to turn.
.
G'day,
Shame to see that VB is starting up a new company in NZ, then again I can understand, the people overthere are cheap labor....they are the White Pakistanis of aviation!
Cheers.....
Shame to see that VB is starting up a new company in NZ, then again I can understand, the people overthere are cheap labor....they are the White Pakistanis of aviation!
Cheers.....
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To answer the Question,
The last 150 pilots to go to Virgin Blue including myself, have done their Type Rating with Endorsement Training Australia in Melbourne, with Virgin covering the NG Differences.
These blokes teach Virgin proceedures from day one and train to a very high standard and have you finished within a day or so of your proficiency check.
Cost me $21500 aussie
[email protected]
The last 150 pilots to go to Virgin Blue including myself, have done their Type Rating with Endorsement Training Australia in Melbourne, with Virgin covering the NG Differences.
These blokes teach Virgin proceedures from day one and train to a very high standard and have you finished within a day or so of your proficiency check.
Cost me $21500 aussie
[email protected]
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"The Kiwi's - the Phillipinos of Aviation"
"they are the White Pakistanis of aviation!"
Now I feel completely happy to work for peanuts because I realise that I am not an equal to the superior caucasion Australian. Maybe I could get a part-time job cleaning your house to help me out when I'm on those low Pacific Blue wages. I can do it between Australian domestic sectors.
"they are the White Pakistanis of aviation!"
Now I feel completely happy to work for peanuts because I realise that I am not an equal to the superior caucasion Australian. Maybe I could get a part-time job cleaning your house to help me out when I'm on those low Pacific Blue wages. I can do it between Australian domestic sectors.
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Tape it Shut
I can understand you wanting to get an NG rating. Great airplane.
As BCF Breath mentioned earlier, don't be to quick to diminish the role of pilot unions. Even if your not a staunch unionist, being a paying member can offer benefits when the chips are down.
Remember, long after the novelty and thrill of flying a new jet has worn off, you still maybe stuck with a lousy wage, lodging in flea bag motels, victimisation by management etc. etc. the list goes on. I know, I have seen some of this stuff first hand.
Good luck anyways
I can understand you wanting to get an NG rating. Great airplane.
As BCF Breath mentioned earlier, don't be to quick to diminish the role of pilot unions. Even if your not a staunch unionist, being a paying member can offer benefits when the chips are down.
Remember, long after the novelty and thrill of flying a new jet has worn off, you still maybe stuck with a lousy wage, lodging in flea bag motels, victimisation by management etc. etc. the list goes on. I know, I have seen some of this stuff first hand.
Good luck anyways
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As a 73 driver (or soon to be) I hate seeing what the others are getting paid. And I'd love to be on the Aussie wicket!
But, how long would that last.
Plus, management don't like competition for top dollar!
I dislike the fact that each new jet job that starts here has lower conditions and to pay for a rating on top of that.
Hopefully they use it to get some time and gap it off to the sandpit and earn some proper $$$.
Or maybe get a job with Qantas.....
TIS, get your job, keep yer nose clean and look for other opportunities asap.
And pay your union fees....they have a good ski race each year.....
But, how long would that last.
Plus, management don't like competition for top dollar!
I dislike the fact that each new jet job that starts here has lower conditions and to pay for a rating on top of that.
Hopefully they use it to get some time and gap it off to the sandpit and earn some proper $$$.
Or maybe get a job with Qantas.....
TIS, get your job, keep yer nose clean and look for other opportunities asap.
And pay your union fees....they have a good ski race each year.....
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When Qantas New Zealand went belly up the pilots at the feeder TPC got nothing from the New Zealand union. The first correspondence was:
Your membership fee is due!
"Can't pay, got no job"
Your membership will be terminated then!
Look at the introduction of the 747-400 to New Zealand. Pilot demands saw the aircraft go to HongKong and the union divided. Look at why Air Nelson and Eagle exisit. Air New Zealand pilots wanted to fly everything going - to the point where each new pilot cost a fortune as every pilot went up the ladder and on to a new type. I know people who were on type rating courses and didn't even get to finish them before being put on another. I won't even go near the Australian 1989 fiasco. These unions exist to protect the top people and their conditions and it seems with little thought to the company or its performance.
Your membership fee is due!
"Can't pay, got no job"
Your membership will be terminated then!
Look at the introduction of the 747-400 to New Zealand. Pilot demands saw the aircraft go to HongKong and the union divided. Look at why Air Nelson and Eagle exisit. Air New Zealand pilots wanted to fly everything going - to the point where each new pilot cost a fortune as every pilot went up the ladder and on to a new type. I know people who were on type rating courses and didn't even get to finish them before being put on another. I won't even go near the Australian 1989 fiasco. These unions exist to protect the top people and their conditions and it seems with little thought to the company or its performance.
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Sperm Bank you are a bloody disgrace for the below comment.
WHEN the first 737 with a hopelessly undertrained crew finally loses a hull, things will begin to turn.
Last edited by thumpa; 14th Sep 2003 at 18:43.
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TIS, yes a while ago, your Union view may have been correct.
I also think your view of the TPC outcome may be a bit (well quite a lot) simplistic, knowing people affected by both events and who are still behind the Union.
Todays Unions are a lot different. They have to be. And have changed with the times.
You don't have to be a card waving slogan swearing member!
What I'm saying is there are also many benefits to be had from membership.
Also please tell us why Air Nelson & Eagle exist?
I also think your view of the TPC outcome may be a bit (well quite a lot) simplistic, knowing people affected by both events and who are still behind the Union.
Todays Unions are a lot different. They have to be. And have changed with the times.
You don't have to be a card waving slogan swearing member!
What I'm saying is there are also many benefits to be had from membership.
Also please tell us why Air Nelson & Eagle exist?
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Air Nelson took over from the F27 operation. It was to effectively stop the pilots swapping from fleet to fleet. Now you start on the Saab and if you want to go up the ladder you apply to the next operator, Mount Cook or Air NZ.
Under the old system every Saab pilot would get a go on the B737, B767, B747 etc. Some of those early Air NZ pilots are rated on everything at some considerable cost.
This is an example of pigs at the trough with no thought on how the trough is replenished.
Under the old system every Saab pilot would get a go on the B737, B767, B747 etc. Some of those early Air NZ pilots are rated on everything at some considerable cost.
This is an example of pigs at the trough with no thought on how the trough is replenished.
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"I think any company that isn't hard nosed and looking to cut costs is a lost caused". If I didn't know any better I'd think 'Tape it' was from management. Such comments leave me cold.
Take a brief look and the NTSB report into the latest Shuttle tragedy and see what contemporary accident investigators say about such concepts. From what I can remember...
"A cheif contributor to the accident was the culture of cost cutting at NASA that saw the need to reduce costs and ensure schedule integrity over-ride safety".
Now before you say .... what have wages got to do with safety?.... take a further look at Westpac Australias research into staff morale and motivation as they relate to a workers output.
This is exactly why Southwest pay well. And why Southwest treat their employees well. As a result they offer a product that is different to their competitors. Product differentiation is imperitive in our industry. Sure CONTAIN costs but don't just slash and burn at the expense of your company's product.
Take a brief look and the NTSB report into the latest Shuttle tragedy and see what contemporary accident investigators say about such concepts. From what I can remember...
"A cheif contributor to the accident was the culture of cost cutting at NASA that saw the need to reduce costs and ensure schedule integrity over-ride safety".
Now before you say .... what have wages got to do with safety?.... take a further look at Westpac Australias research into staff morale and motivation as they relate to a workers output.
This is exactly why Southwest pay well. And why Southwest treat their employees well. As a result they offer a product that is different to their competitors. Product differentiation is imperitive in our industry. Sure CONTAIN costs but don't just slash and burn at the expense of your company's product.
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Er, I think you may have some wrong info there.
Air Nelson was operating (as Mot Air) prior to the F-27 going.
Air Nelson gained the F-27 routes after they were offered them (and Eagle was offered them too) as Air NZ was phasing out the type.
This fell right into Roberts lap and he ran with it. At the time, not knowing how the hell he was going to do it.
It was a fine effort to get a new type and crews organised to get operations running in such a short time.
Nothing to do with people wanting multiple type-ratings...
A fair few of the pilots came across from Safe Air to fly the new type and some redundent Air NZ pilots also joined.
Some of which went back to Air NZ a few years later when they re-hired.
There was nothing to do with Unions there. I fail to see a comparison.
Air Nelson was operating (as Mot Air) prior to the F-27 going.
Air Nelson gained the F-27 routes after they were offered them (and Eagle was offered them too) as Air NZ was phasing out the type.
This fell right into Roberts lap and he ran with it. At the time, not knowing how the hell he was going to do it.
It was a fine effort to get a new type and crews organised to get operations running in such a short time.
Nothing to do with people wanting multiple type-ratings...
A fair few of the pilots came across from Safe Air to fly the new type and some redundent Air NZ pilots also joined.
Some of which went back to Air NZ a few years later when they re-hired.
There was nothing to do with Unions there. I fail to see a comparison.
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Air New Zealand pumped plenty of money into Air Nelson so it could take over the F27 flying. Air New Zealand sent their own management to Air Nelson to run the new operation because the CAA demanded it.
Some Air NZ pilots were made redundant because effectively their jobs on the F27 were now with Air Nelson. The cost of operating the F27 at Air NZ was huge and the revenue was nothing.
Air NZ did not even try to negotiate with the pilots, it just set up the new operation. The same thing happened again with Freedom.
Some Air NZ pilots were made redundant because effectively their jobs on the F27 were now with Air Nelson. The cost of operating the F27 at Air NZ was huge and the revenue was nothing.
Air NZ did not even try to negotiate with the pilots, it just set up the new operation. The same thing happened again with Freedom.
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Personally, I have a REAL problem with people who are anti-union and don't want to pay their dues, bitch and moan about having to be a member, yet enjoy pay and conditions that are the result of gains made by unions and their members.
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I agree with you Walt.
Actually Nelson has a nice clause in their contract only thanks to the Union, and man the management hate it!
And
"I love the smell of napalm in the morning! Smells like; Victory"
Er, when did this happen??
The SAABs arrived in 90. The first and last Air NZ Manager came in '98. He left in the early 2000's.
Air NZ did not
Air Nelson it was there already. Man what planet you on?
Earlier in this thread some were supportive of you wanting a jet job, no matter how you got it. Maybe buying a job might be the ONLY way you'll get a job?!
Actually Nelson has a nice clause in their contract only thanks to the Union, and man the management hate it!
And
"I love the smell of napalm in the morning! Smells like; Victory"
Air New Zealand sent their own management to Air Nelson to run the new operation because the CAA demanded it.
The SAABs arrived in 90. The first and last Air NZ Manager came in '98. He left in the early 2000's.
Air NZ did not
set up
Earlier in this thread some were supportive of you wanting a jet job, no matter how you got it. Maybe buying a job might be the ONLY way you'll get a job?!
Last edited by CT7; 14th Sep 2003 at 17:59.