Is Impulse the new 'low-cost' carrier?
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Is Impulse the new 'low-cost' carrier?
I realise we've had at least two topics discussing this and something similar relating to QF's plans for a low cost carrier, but both of those topics were soon diverted to the land of hysteria.
Onto the original topic...
What do you guys REALLY think of this low cost carrier biz? Do you think it will succeed? Or will we end up with a Go Airways situation, that ended up stealing from it's parent?
What aircraft do you think would do it? the 717 or the A321, as has been mentioned previously? Advantages/Disadvantages?? Could it go the way of JetBlue, or like Impulse in it's original incarnation?
Would Impulse do it - after all, their Cabin Crew are cheaper than Virgin Blue now...I don't know about the Tech Crew, but surely there's not that much difference in cost between them (blank look) - maybe???
I welcome all useful contributions to this topic. If people are going to denigrate this into a bitchslapping session and make this 'handbags at 5 paces', may I suggest you go somewhere else...I would appreciate some HALF DECENT, MATURE discussion on this matter.
Boring? Maybe - but as someone with a vested interest, I can do without the impersonations of grown people as 2 year olds that I see on here occasionally.
This is NOT an Early Learning Centre!
Onto the original topic...
What do you guys REALLY think of this low cost carrier biz? Do you think it will succeed? Or will we end up with a Go Airways situation, that ended up stealing from it's parent?
What aircraft do you think would do it? the 717 or the A321, as has been mentioned previously? Advantages/Disadvantages?? Could it go the way of JetBlue, or like Impulse in it's original incarnation?
Would Impulse do it - after all, their Cabin Crew are cheaper than Virgin Blue now...I don't know about the Tech Crew, but surely there's not that much difference in cost between them (blank look) - maybe???
I welcome all useful contributions to this topic. If people are going to denigrate this into a bitchslapping session and make this 'handbags at 5 paces', may I suggest you go somewhere else...I would appreciate some HALF DECENT, MATURE discussion on this matter.
Boring? Maybe - but as someone with a vested interest, I can do without the impersonations of grown people as 2 year olds that I see on here occasionally.
This is NOT an Early Learning Centre!
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Mr Seatback 2
Not having a crystal ball it could happen in a variety of ways.
My guess is that if this LCC happens, it will be a seperate deal
alltogether, I could imagine QF and their "CityFlyer" remaining
as is, and I could imagine that Impulse will remain as is, as well
as AO.
This LCC (Skimpy) would be the current 737s taken out of QF domestic,
and used anywhere including off-peak "CityFlyer" routes, as
Geoff Dixon said between 15-40 aircraft, having heaps of 737ng
options still left at Boeing I can't even imagine them getting
Airbus 320s but who really knows except the man himself.
Wirraway
Not having a crystal ball it could happen in a variety of ways.
My guess is that if this LCC happens, it will be a seperate deal
alltogether, I could imagine QF and their "CityFlyer" remaining
as is, and I could imagine that Impulse will remain as is, as well
as AO.
This LCC (Skimpy) would be the current 737s taken out of QF domestic,
and used anywhere including off-peak "CityFlyer" routes, as
Geoff Dixon said between 15-40 aircraft, having heaps of 737ng
options still left at Boeing I can't even imagine them getting
Airbus 320s but who really knows except the man himself.
Wirraway
Mr Seatback,
Not wanting to turn it into a bitch slapping exercise but the only "low cost" is crew wages.(Ok I admit using clapped out old 737's will be cheaper)
All things considered, using "new" equipment whether it be A321's, 737NG's etc; aircraft leasing, fuel, landing fees etc would be almost identical on both sides of the Tasman. The only difference is that the NZ crews will getting paid less.
The downward spiral continues..........................
Not wanting to turn it into a bitch slapping exercise but the only "low cost" is crew wages.(Ok I admit using clapped out old 737's will be cheaper)
All things considered, using "new" equipment whether it be A321's, 737NG's etc; aircraft leasing, fuel, landing fees etc would be almost identical on both sides of the Tasman. The only difference is that the NZ crews will getting paid less.
The downward spiral continues..........................
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Well said Mr Seat Back. Hand bags at 5 paces seems to be the way of prune at the moment. I get the feeling that alot of guys think that the low cost carrier would be a fairly risky option for qf to pursue. If I ran Virgin I would wait for Qantas to pull all of the buisness class seats out of the air. Then I would put a buisness class in the VB 737s to lure the buisness traveler back.
I get the feeling that a lowering of costs/ service is not what the travelling public want. They need to be able to provide a good service for moneys paid.
I reckon that a another low cost carrier will dilute the market to a non workable point. How can an airline justify having portions of itself domestically working against each other?
I get the feeling that a lowering of costs/ service is not what the travelling public want. They need to be able to provide a good service for moneys paid.
I reckon that a another low cost carrier will dilute the market to a non workable point. How can an airline justify having portions of itself domestically working against each other?
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I see it being jetconnect for the reasons discussed before. I see more 767's being configured in one class for peak times and I see 737-800's being used as supplementary. Eventually I feel QF will have to minimise the number of aircraft variations in the fleet, especially if the ACCC deal does not go ahead with AirNZ hence they'll go 737 all the way and Impulse will lose out. This is not a wind up, and I stress that for the likes of thumpa and ditzyboy. Thats just my tboughts from what's been indicated in the past.
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Pete, I see where you are coming from. However, Impulse operates regional services for qantas link not mainline. If you look into the domestic profit schedule for qantaslink in the last financial year you will find that QF are doing very well out of the 717s, profit wise.
I dont think Impulse was ever designed to take over mainline routes. The tanks arent big enough. In tough times I would be surprised to see Impulse in any sort of trouble. Considering the good profit results last year.
I dont think Impulse was ever designed to take over mainline routes. The tanks arent big enough. In tough times I would be surprised to see Impulse in any sort of trouble. Considering the good profit results last year.
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Thats interesting Douglas McDonnel, I heard that the combined Qantaslink profit schedule was good, but as the yeild was really low within Impulse, the figures for Impulse were not that good. The same situation as for AN with the CRJ's. The CRJ's were always full, but the yeild was low either because it was full of holiday makers or frequent flyers.
I have no doubt that impulse was and are a good low cost exercise for QF, but I guess in these changing times, it has to be seen whether QF will go the distance with them.
Theres other external factors as well, and I'm happy that we are engaging in sensible chat over it. I heard on the FSF network in the USA last week that Boeing were desperate to sell the 717 as part of an aircraft mega order for AirCanada and a few other STAR carriers, see below,I managed to have the email still, heres part of the article,
Bombardier Inc. will show Air Canada its 700 and 900 series regional jets.
Airbus will fly in an A318.
Embraer will present its 170, although Arthur said Air Canada is also
considering the Brazilian planemaker's 190, which still is being developed.
In a potential sign of just how badly it wants and needs the Air Canada
order in the weak aircraft market, Boeing, which has already brought its 717
to Dorval for viewing, will bring the plane back again.
Analysts expect that the fight between manufacturers for the contract will
be fierce, with planemakers weighing what's better: a sale at a steeply
discounted price or no sale at all.
Montreal-based Air Canada and its Star Alliance partners, Lufthansa, SAS and
Austrian Airlines, are teaming up to make a joint purchase of up to 200
planes that could be worth
$9 billion U.S.
So, whether the 717 remains as a long term option in the QF fleet remains the big question.Like I said, this aint a wind up.
Regards,Pete
I have no doubt that impulse was and are a good low cost exercise for QF, but I guess in these changing times, it has to be seen whether QF will go the distance with them.
Theres other external factors as well, and I'm happy that we are engaging in sensible chat over it. I heard on the FSF network in the USA last week that Boeing were desperate to sell the 717 as part of an aircraft mega order for AirCanada and a few other STAR carriers, see below,I managed to have the email still, heres part of the article,
Bombardier Inc. will show Air Canada its 700 and 900 series regional jets.
Airbus will fly in an A318.
Embraer will present its 170, although Arthur said Air Canada is also
considering the Brazilian planemaker's 190, which still is being developed.
In a potential sign of just how badly it wants and needs the Air Canada
order in the weak aircraft market, Boeing, which has already brought its 717
to Dorval for viewing, will bring the plane back again.
Analysts expect that the fight between manufacturers for the contract will
be fierce, with planemakers weighing what's better: a sale at a steeply
discounted price or no sale at all.
Montreal-based Air Canada and its Star Alliance partners, Lufthansa, SAS and
Austrian Airlines, are teaming up to make a joint purchase of up to 200
planes that could be worth
$9 billion U.S.
So, whether the 717 remains as a long term option in the QF fleet remains the big question.Like I said, this aint a wind up.
Regards,Pete
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So 4 choices
-Impulse
-Jetconnect
-Completely new operation
-No low cost airline at all
Well at least all will be revealed by Xmas, I wonder how proposed Qantas/Air NZ deal will effect the decision.
Good to see a CONSTRUCTIVE topic at last, how long will it last????
-Impulse
-Jetconnect
-Completely new operation
-No low cost airline at all
Well at least all will be revealed by Xmas, I wonder how proposed Qantas/Air NZ deal will effect the decision.
Good to see a CONSTRUCTIVE topic at last, how long will it last????
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My 2 cents worth:
Most low cost carriers GENERALLY only operate a single fleet type.
I think its well known that a 717 can't operate SYD-PER or BNE-DWN. It's also well known that Boeing is trying to woo the Kangaroo into the 737-900X, and be the launch customer. They have approached Bombardier and ATR for RFP's on the regional replacements.
No insults intended at ANYONE but Qantas has quite a few aircraft types in the fleet as it is, and my humble opinion is that we will see a change with that.
I think it will be a 737 type operation. Going Airbus (A320/21) is a little late in the game plan to change horses..spares, engineering, training. As mentioned the options with Boeing are still plentiful.
A lot has happened in Aus aviation over the last 24 months, so I wont be suprised if ole mate Geoff makes some decisions that some may not like.
Most low cost carriers GENERALLY only operate a single fleet type.
I think its well known that a 717 can't operate SYD-PER or BNE-DWN. It's also well known that Boeing is trying to woo the Kangaroo into the 737-900X, and be the launch customer. They have approached Bombardier and ATR for RFP's on the regional replacements.
No insults intended at ANYONE but Qantas has quite a few aircraft types in the fleet as it is, and my humble opinion is that we will see a change with that.
I think it will be a 737 type operation. Going Airbus (A320/21) is a little late in the game plan to change horses..spares, engineering, training. As mentioned the options with Boeing are still plentiful.
A lot has happened in Aus aviation over the last 24 months, so I wont be suprised if ole mate Geoff makes some decisions that some may not like.
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I love your work guys - very mature and useful contributions!
Pete C - QF are getting rid of OGV to Australian as I understand, because they don't want an all Y 76 on their runs (presumeably for reasons of low yields or the excuse that was used for the A330 - it takes too long to turnaround).
I wouldn't be surprised that the yields on the 717's aren't the best (just look at where they fly!) - Hamilton Island, Maroochydore, Gold Coast (again!)...not exactly Business Travellers' delight!
However, having said that, has anyone seen the schedule for end of October? SYD-CNS, BNE-TSV, SYD-OOL (5 times a day)...where are we going with this? These have been traditionally Short Haul routes - or are we trying to build up traffic in the busy lead up to Xmas and School Holidays?
BNE-TSV I can appreciate, as traffic between Alliance and VB would probably hot up, and it would be far cheaper to send Impulse up as opposed to a 2 class 734 with Short Haul crew. I presume this is the case at least!?
I can't see any reason for the LCC to not be based out of oz - it would be a bit of a logistical nightmare to base the crews ex NZ as is happening with Pacific Blue? I know that the FA EBA doesn't provide for much of a markup from the last one (well, not excessively so)...so I fail to see how you could lower costs any further on the staff front (except in cases where you use contracted labour on the ground, engineering, etc???) - maybe this is the plan?
It would be an expensive exercise to do it from scratch I would assume - I strongly envisage Impulse being the vehicle for this new venture if it does go ahead...
Is the range of a 733 vastly different from a 717? Can a 733 do SYD-PER in one go? I didn't think there was a difference...I admit I'm not always correct when it comes to specifics regarding aircraft design...
Any more ideas guys? I like the speculation!!
Pete C - QF are getting rid of OGV to Australian as I understand, because they don't want an all Y 76 on their runs (presumeably for reasons of low yields or the excuse that was used for the A330 - it takes too long to turnaround).
I wouldn't be surprised that the yields on the 717's aren't the best (just look at where they fly!) - Hamilton Island, Maroochydore, Gold Coast (again!)...not exactly Business Travellers' delight!
However, having said that, has anyone seen the schedule for end of October? SYD-CNS, BNE-TSV, SYD-OOL (5 times a day)...where are we going with this? These have been traditionally Short Haul routes - or are we trying to build up traffic in the busy lead up to Xmas and School Holidays?
BNE-TSV I can appreciate, as traffic between Alliance and VB would probably hot up, and it would be far cheaper to send Impulse up as opposed to a 2 class 734 with Short Haul crew. I presume this is the case at least!?
I can't see any reason for the LCC to not be based out of oz - it would be a bit of a logistical nightmare to base the crews ex NZ as is happening with Pacific Blue? I know that the FA EBA doesn't provide for much of a markup from the last one (well, not excessively so)...so I fail to see how you could lower costs any further on the staff front (except in cases where you use contracted labour on the ground, engineering, etc???) - maybe this is the plan?
It would be an expensive exercise to do it from scratch I would assume - I strongly envisage Impulse being the vehicle for this new venture if it does go ahead...
Is the range of a 733 vastly different from a 717? Can a 733 do SYD-PER in one go? I didn't think there was a difference...I admit I'm not always correct when it comes to specifics regarding aircraft design...
Any more ideas guys? I like the speculation!!
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I was under the impression that an MOU had already been signed by QF mainline pilots saying they would be crewing a new LCC. Then again, that flies in the face of what you hear regarding Jetconnect coming in as the LCC with lower wages.
It's all specualtion, thats the problem, but at the end of the day, to cut costs, QF go with as few aircraft types as possible. The most dominant in the fleet is the 737 series.
Consolidation was the word within the QF regionals not that long ago, with the word even being from within Impulse that no more 717's were coming.
All QF are doing with Impulse is exactly what AN did with the KD CRJ's, deploy them on low yeild routes and accept the low financial result that comes with it because it's all absorbed in the group anyway.Thats all well and good, but theres going to come a time where you will have numerous low cost arms operating against one another within the group. The one who's most dominant will win out. That being 737.
It's horses for courses, but the 717 is not the knight in shining armour thats going to revolutionise LCC operators in Australia. It will most likely be operated by QF mainline or Jetconnect using the one type thats already the most prevalent.
The 737-300 can do Melbourne - Perth, the 400 can and does already do Sydney - Perth.
It's all specualtion, thats the problem, but at the end of the day, to cut costs, QF go with as few aircraft types as possible. The most dominant in the fleet is the 737 series.
Consolidation was the word within the QF regionals not that long ago, with the word even being from within Impulse that no more 717's were coming.
All QF are doing with Impulse is exactly what AN did with the KD CRJ's, deploy them on low yeild routes and accept the low financial result that comes with it because it's all absorbed in the group anyway.Thats all well and good, but theres going to come a time where you will have numerous low cost arms operating against one another within the group. The one who's most dominant will win out. That being 737.
It's horses for courses, but the 717 is not the knight in shining armour thats going to revolutionise LCC operators in Australia. It will most likely be operated by QF mainline or Jetconnect using the one type thats already the most prevalent.
The 737-300 can do Melbourne - Perth, the 400 can and does already do Sydney - Perth.
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Whoever ends up operating this new carrier will need NEW jets. Old B733's tend not to be reliable and are becoming increasingly expensive to operate.
Although the lease costs are higher for new equipment, you get reliability and increased fuel savings. On time performance is everything.
Although the lease costs are higher for new equipment, you get reliability and increased fuel savings. On time performance is everything.
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Thumpa, how bout you take your little attitude elsewhere.In this thread I have said what I said in a factual way based on whats already been said before. I'm not the one stirring the pot here now mate, so lose the attitude and go to a forum where your snide little posts can have an effect. The original poster asked for opinions, which have been given, now you have hijacked the thread with an inflamatory post.
If you have an opinion based on what you know, please share it, I promise I won't make a mockery of your post.
If you have an opinion based on what you know, please share it, I promise I won't make a mockery of your post.
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Tell your story walking thumpa.
AS an interesting asside. I noticed that yesterday the ACCC blocked the well known proposed agreement with ANZ and QF. How would this effect Jet connect going domestic in australia? Only a hypothisis and not a rumour.
Can the ACCC have their cake and eat it too?
AS an interesting asside. I noticed that yesterday the ACCC blocked the well known proposed agreement with ANZ and QF. How would this effect Jet connect going domestic in australia? Only a hypothisis and not a rumour.
Can the ACCC have their cake and eat it too?
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Have it on very good authority today from a source high up in AIPA that the company is in agreement that the carrier (if it happens) will be crewed by QF Mainline pilots in much the same fashion as the Australian operation.
Sorry to all you wannabes out there.... But it may well open up further recruiting in QF mainline???
Sorry to all you wannabes out there.... But it may well open up further recruiting in QF mainline???
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Too true dlf - sometimes big things come from very small packages?!
I forgot about the kids up north - are they profitable? I heard otherwise (but refuellers tell you all sorts of things)...
Everyone seems to think 733's...would make perfect sense...but in the broader sense, where does that leave the 717's? With 733's operating on a lower cost base (fully paid ones at that), why keep the 717's?
I forgot about the kids up north - are they profitable? I heard otherwise (but refuellers tell you all sorts of things)...
Everyone seems to think 733's...would make perfect sense...but in the broader sense, where does that leave the 717's? With 733's operating on a lower cost base (fully paid ones at that), why keep the 717's?
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Just heard from a reliable source that the LCC will be 35 A321's all external recruitment.
Only way to effectively reduce existing conditions and employ under entirely new contract conditions.
Only way to effectively reduce existing conditions and employ under entirely new contract conditions.