Comparable pay offer for ATCEs/ATSAs
 

I would like to know of anyones' views on the current state of the pay offer and if ATCOs are in agreement that ATCEs/ATSAs should have a comparable pay offer. We do work hard to ensure an Air Traffic Service is available, as well as you guys(speaking as an ATCE)

Basically you are asking the wrong question to the wrong people. I would love my colleagues to earn as much as they can spend but I don't set their wages.

You have an anonymous Chairman and a Chief Executive who are paid lots of money to decide this amongst other things.

I agree that you should share the same increase as ATCOs, but you have to remember there is now a split between the 3 of us which I'm sure management will try their upmost to keep.
I also think we should try to pull together, rather than increase this anti-ATCO surge I can see creeping in through the company. Remember, you can say you believed management as much as you like, ATCOs were the ones with the balls to stand up and fight initially and not believe them. We are not responsible for your lesser deal.

Greebson

We only accepted the deal on the say so of our branch of the union. They only recommended it to us as the Management said there was absolutely no more money in the pot. I totally agree that we should all stick together, something which we should have done at the start!!!

Yes, of course we should have stuck together. But the assistants and engineers chose to believe management and the controllers did not and seemed ready for a fight and look what it got them. The controllers may not be totally happy with it, but its good enough for the assistants and engineers to want to kick up a fuss about it. Given managements misguided perception of an excess of assistants and engineers and obvious shortage of controllers do you really think they will want to continue negotiating equally with the three groups? Yes we should have stuck together and now that PCS has forced the issue, we may find it too late.

NO ATCO SHOULD VOTE FOR THIS VERY DIVIDE AND CONQUER TACTIC.

Just when I think NATS can sink no lower, they always find a way:rolleyes:

Dan

NO ATCO DID vote for a divide and conquer deal, they voted to REJECT THE PAY DEAL which we all should have done.
As I said early we need to pull together and not stir up anti-ATCO feelings within the company

Alert 5.

As I understand it your BEC and members were naive enough to believe management when it said no more in the pot and voted to accept the deal.

The ATCOs voted against the deal and were prepared to take action if there wasn't more on the table. I suspect that most of the ATSAs would have continued to come to work even if the ATCOs were on strike?

The ATCOs then negotiate a SECTIONAL increase and all of a sudden the ATSAs/ATEs want a slice of the cake??

If I were NATS I'd tell you to s*d off and try again next year-in the hope that you will be naive again then.

I reckon you've shot your bolt for 2002/2003.

I doubt if ATSA's and other support staff would have gone in by crossing a picket line. I and my colleagues would not have.

It may be a sectional claim but its not a 'sectional' offer! Its a 4% payrise. THAT is why PCS and ATCE's are not best pleased. Will the ATCO's cross our picket lines? Hell yes they will in their droves (and Merc's!!):mad:

Minesapint

Don't look on ATCOs as your enemies in this. Turn your energies on those who appear to have represented you so poorly.

250kts, I think you are missing the point. "The ATCOs then negotiate a SECTIONAL increase and all of a sudden the ATSAs/ATEs want a slice of the cake?? " Not true. As a PCS member, I have little choice but to leave the pay talks to PCS and then trust that they have judged the situation correctly. On that basis PCS members voted in line with the union recommendation. This year PCS got it wrong after being misled by management and it's not surprising that the majority of PCS members are not happy with the situation. It has nothing to do with ATSAs/ATEs suddenly wanting a slice of the cake. All we want is to be treated fairly.

Minesapint
wild-cat strikes went out with Maggie in the 80's/90's. Legally you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if you decided not to cross ATCOs picket lines, if and when it happens. If ATSAs decide to strike I would go to work, but as normal(with staff shortage and what-not) would insist on working with an 'A' as part of the team.

I suspect this would mean working with the small minority of ATSAs that come to work or T&D ATCOs trained to do the job. ATCOs could also work as an 'A' which would provide a very limited service, not just to do with numbers but a lack of knowledge in how to work the system and apart from the ATSAs who would work on flight plans?

I hope you all stick to your guns, and next time you're told "sorry that's all there is." you won't be so naive.

roger

If you personally as an ATSA/ATCE voted to reject the pay offer then yes I do ave sympathy with you now feeling cheated. However if you didn't have the balls in the first place to reject the offer the you don't have a leg to stand on when you now try to cry unfair. Your vote to accept the offer is your personal statement as to whether YOU accept or reject the offer presented. That's regardless of whether management, union, media, mystic meg or anyone else tell you it's all that's available. If as many of you as are now complaining had shown some solidarity with the ATCO's in the first place you might not have been in this situation now. If ever there was a time you might have improved the offer it was by presenting a united front with us ATCO's. That was when you should have jumped on the bandwagon.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not an ATSA/Engineer basher. I was an ATSA myself so I do appreciate what you do, & how little thanks you get from management & some colleagues. I (amongst others) tried my best to persuade both the PCS rep at my unit, and as many of the ATSAs as would listen to jointly reject the pay offer with the ATCOs. However it was not to be. I feel you have been very badly let down by your union, and it's now up to all of you to take issue with your union heirarchy & ensure it doesn't happen again, as I too believe that this time you have well & truly missed your opportunity for a better deal this year.

I hope that the big lesson to be learned here is that it's a big tough unfair world. Management are clearly happy to have an adversarial them & us relationship & try to cheat the staff at every opportunity. (evidenced not only by this years pay, but don't forget the bonuses we were all cheated out of last time). Until they change their behaviour we have no alternative but to treat everything they say with utmost suspicion.

Good luck & I hope we all get an outcome we are happy with.

Just got back from the flying club............
Too p****d to add a sensible reply........
Regards FBW

PS PCS why don't you write a weekly column in "VIZ"

Karoshi

I think YOU are missing the point. Would you have preferred the ATCOs (after turning down the pay offer) to say, "Well actually the ATSAs and Engineers accepted the pay offer, don't give us any extra we'll take the same."?

ATCO`s in NATS are at best paid an average wage compared to UK and Europe.

ATSA`s in NATS are paid very well compared to UK and Europe

Debate.:)

Do you honestly think that we would have all this bitterness if ATCOs, ATSAs and ATEs were all in the same union?? We certainly wouldn't have had the "divide and conquer" routine that even now is causing feelings to run high. Nor, if it ever came to it, would we have the problem of staff from one union crossing the picket line of staff from the other union.

Instead of putting all this exasperation into a war of words between ATCOs ATSAs and ATEs, why not put it into considering how ALL relevant staff might end up in just one union?

I suspect that that would be a prospect (no pun intended) to make our management go a little pale.

Bern... you took the words right out of my mouth.

roger.

I take your point but I voted no to the offer and would not have crossed ATCO picket lines (sickie) unless there was a safety issue that had been agreed by the unions.

Et al..

Its about time that there was a single ATC union. The three unions (in effect) give management a tremendous advantage. Take a look at other privatised orgs. BA is a good place to start. Divide - conquer - walk all over.... It will take one good leader to stand up and offer his/her services to get the new union going - thats all. They would be killed in the rush. It aint me I'm afraid....

Some ATCO's (the 'ATCO only' brigade) would never want to be in the same union as support staff. Good grief - ATC support staff with 25 years + experience may even want to join a professional body!!!

Remember that ATCO's are a minority and whilst I agree that they are not the best paid in Europe they are far from the worst and most of the population would consider all of us to be quite highly paid. They would have no sympathy for the striking ATCO.

Minesapint,
You're right we're not the worst paid controllers in Europe, but we're a lot closer than you think to being the worst paid, we come a close second to the Irish (Not counting the Eastern block)

Wow, that one statement speaks volumes. About the controllers not being the most of the Air Traffic Employees. Why would there not be more controllers than support staff? Does it really take more support staff to keep the controllers procedures and equipment in order?

As to one union to cover more than just one. Take a look at NATCA.net and see how we look as a combination union. We don't have everyone in the agency, but we do cover quite a few of the specialties...

regards

Surely it is about time that the "them and us" (ATCOs and ATSAs) attitude is put in the past? Air traffic is about a number of people doing different things to keep the system working. Could an ATCO really do their job as efficiently as they do without an ATSA or ATCE to help? The ATCO function is recognised as the most important one - moving aircraft about is the ultimate aim - but it would be impossible without the equipment and people to work it and maintain it.

One union to represent everyone involved in the process would surely be more preferable than everyone doing their own thing!

Madge. Excellent.

Scott.

Yes there are more 'support staff' than ATCO's in NATS. The management ( and I do use that term so very loosely ) decided to get rid of over a thousand engineers and recruit truck loads (loads - Loaded - pun geddit (not you Scott - its a reference to a recruitment ad)).

This, as we knew, will not work. The COTS systems do not exist and we will require most of the engineers and specialists we have to carry through the business plan. NATS is now left with £780M debts and no paddle. Well done UK government!

Seen the trawl notice to go work with Nav Canada? Thats for Prestwick Oceanic being a copy of the Gander system. If engineers and specialists need to go work in Canada for two years (yeah right - 4 years I bet) then COTS its not..... nes pas?

Wow, that is amazing. No wonder NATS can't make any money with overhead like that....

regards

ATCO/ATSA/ATCE PAY DEAL
 

We would never be in this mess if people had the balls to threaten strike action when the Govt. said is was going to part privatise NATS.
Instead certain people jumped into bed with the "Airline group" blinded by the glossy image of "I'm Mandy- Fly me" (10 cc from the seventies for any youngsters!).

Castrated sheep would have had more bottle!

:mad: :mad: :mad:
:D

Ayr-Man Unfortunately the Trade Union Laws passed by the previous Government meant that strike action against privatisation was illegal and that we could only strike if we had a grievance with our current (at the time) employer. I do share your views though and wish that so many people did not have the "head in the sand attitude" thinking that it would not happen to us! What is needed is a concerted effort by all Unions involved to push for re-nationalisation of NATS, after all, The Government HAS to, by law provide an Air traffic service, unlike a rail service.

Nobody appears to have mentioned this but the majority of the Union voted to accept the pay offer.
Should not then a thrid of the Union accept the decision of the majority, or is that not how democracy works.

I know that ATSA & ATCE friends of mine, are p****d off, because it appears to them that, the Union members with the power, us ATCOs, only appear to care about ourselves.

White Rose

I'm no expert on union matters but can you explain to me how the tube drivers (just one example) have managed to instigate a series of one day strikes because there is the posibility of P.P.P??? Did they just say that that was their particular greivance against their employers??? why couldn't we have done the same??

Hairy Badger

What Union (singular) are you referring to?
As an ATCO surely you know that there is more than one.

with alacrity
 

1 Union, 3 branches

Hairy Badger

We already have 1 union with 2 branches that can't agree so I can't see how adding a third would make it better. 1 union with 1 branch would be more useful

1 union 3 unions ... whatever.... it would make no difference. There comes a point when the staff will be paid according to how difficult it is to replace them.

We have just passed that point.

Good luck to the ATSAs and engineers. If they negotiate well they will probably end up a system similar to the one which pays very different rates to ATCO 3s in towers and ATCO 2s in LACC. A b***dy painful negotiation that was for ATCOs. Airport ATSAs will get little and ATSA 4s at Swanwick will get a lot because they closed big bits of airspace.

Engineers on vital projects should get enough to buy their co-operation. Others will not. Does an ATCE 4 get the same all round the country ? If so then differentials will appear.

The ATCOs flexed just a little muscle and increased their worth in relative terms. They will do it again when management look for productivity increases.

Now the others should do the same to get fair reward. Only you can judge what is fair for your job in your part of the world.

2sixfour

Thanks for telling everyone what the future holds - I wish I had crystal balls.

Who is more important to the safety of air traffic? The engineer on a big project which may not be operational for another year or the one who maintains the equipment being used today?
Once again you display an incredible lack of knowledge about the work of others around you. A real "I've got mine, to hell with the rest of you." attitude.
With ATCOs like you who needs managers?

As to the silly idea that people should get paid in relation to how difficult they are to replace, what about paying people in relation to what they do?

Yes... let's negotiate seperate deals for each employee with consideration to their skills, experience, location, difficulty to replace, sickness record, hair colour, cup size and/or inside leg measurement....

I'm sure management would love to have all ATCOs on individual contracts - so they can shaft you all one by one. And if you are selfish and blinkered enough to believe all this elitist nonsense, then you deserve what you get.

We all need each other and we all should stick together.

In my opinion the extra offer to ATCOs looks like an entirely deliberate attempt to split the unions and the workforce. If they had thrown money at the ATCOs in any way other than on basic pay then the rest who voted for the original deal could have no complaint. Argument over. They knew that. They chose to give some of their staff extra and to hell with the rest... knowing exactly what response that would get.

I believe that NATS are in negotiations at the moment which could see a compromise deal in which everyone ends up with more than the original offer.

Don't take the bait... Stick together.

After all... 10% to an ATCO on £50k is still more money than 10% to an ATSA or MSG on £25k... so you can still feel superior if it excites you that much... ;)

Don't you think it is high time we all got out of our little boxes, threw away our individual little labels telling us how important we individually are, and accepted the fact that we are ALL members of the team that is the National Air Traffic Service? If we all pulled in the same direction as well as we manage to bicker amongst ourselves then who knows what we might achieve.

We each have a job to do. If one of us fails to do his/her job, life becomes more difficult or impossible for others regardless of grade/rank/call it what you will. One job - Air Traffic Control. One Union for all involved in Air Traffic Control. And while we are at it, why confine membership to those employed by NATS?

C'mon guys and gals. Focus your eyes on the middle distance and try to see the overall picture. Most of all, have a little respect for the other members of your team - including Tels.
:cool:

undercover - you have a touching faith in the management skills and planning. I just believe the NATS director who said the ATCO pay offer was a cock up.

I'd say less faith and more cynicism...


then again... cock up sounds more likely doesn't it!

As a relatively new member to pprune I get the impression that NATS engineers have a real problem with ATCO's. I wonder if they express as much venom towards other people who earn more than them. I have no problem with friends of mine who fly for BA and earn considerably more than I. We live and work in a free market economy. If you feel you are worth more than you currently earn then prove it by leaving and earning more. The same would apply to ATCO's who spend their time bleating about the pittance they get paid for such a difficult job. It's only difficult if you don't have the apptitude for it. Lets all take a long hard look around us and thank our lucky stars we do a job that we enjoy;and if you don't enjoy it GET OUT! Because life is just too short.

10 out of 10 for common sense but did you work for BA before privatisation ? If not you probably don't understand the internal politics and the detachment from the real world that most of us get away with in our daily jobs. If you did then you made a prety interesting transition which many in NATS could do in 10 years.

I am fortunate enough to be employed at a NATS unit where the atcos and engineers enjoy an excellent professional working relationship and have even been known to have a few beers togther! I have nothing but respect for the engineers and the skilled work that they accomplish.
We discuss operational problems, new equipment and even the ergonomics of the working environment without any serious problems whatsoever.
Conversely, I have been in the company of some engineers who seemed to have a real problem with atcos.
Being referred to as a 'Headset' rather than a grade,being called an overpaid airborne traffic warden or overpaid prima donna spring to mind.
Thankfully these individuals with a chip on both shoulders are no longer around.
Or are they?
It might be interesting to hear from engineers or anyone else for that matter who has a problem with atcos,what that problem exactly is.