karoshi
 

take your point but you seem too into character assasination for my liking

i think i work at the same unit as joko and talking in the rest room controllers and atsa's all use the term money for old rope

chiglet you must have heard/used this term yourself

so take a couple of steps back people before you go for the jugular at what you think the motive for a comment is without thinking what you and your fellow workers are saying about the jobs we do!

mainecoon
In a word NO!
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

Yes ive noticed that the people that dont like what i said have resorted to calling me this that and the next thing.
However if you look and then take on board what i have said i am not questioning any assistant as a person or their ability to do a job or demanding that you are paid less.
What i am trying to say is that for most assistans(and i know you have different responsibilities/pay up and down the country)is that you are well paid for a job that while important,does not for most require lots of training or any particular skills and does not carry with it a great deal of resposibility.
It does not mean i think you are low life or that as a controller i am here to save the world at no point have i said that.
I do however believe there are many controllers out there who share my point of view.
Does that mean they are all @*&^%$£)"!!! to.
I dont think so.
People can question my salary and what i do to earn it and if i thought they needed to be put straight about it then i would tell them without resorting to slagging them off because i cant come up with a good enough response!

chiglet
 

too much time in the legionares toilet on fouth flour rather thn enjoying dialoge with your fellow team mates in the rest room

the comment is good

you all do an invaluable job but get well paid loads of time off etc

but also require the same pay rise in percent terms as us atco's

however arguing like this will only hasten the separation of the branches in our union and then see how you get on with pay deals

we do rely on you but management are out for your grades so watch out

unity is the key!

mainecoon Agreed! We need appreciated for the times we work our socks off for you. We do get well paid- sometimes we earn every penny, sometimes we don't- its in the nature of the job. 'Loads of time off'? Mainly because we work shifts, and if we are able to do a night without having slept the previous day, well thats up to the individual. Wouldn't say we get any more time off than an ATCO though :p.
What other perks do we get? - I must be forgetting something, but you've included an 'etc'.
We do require the same pay rise- not asking for the same amount, only fairness.
Personally, I believe we should all be 'brothers' and not squabble amongst ourselves. It is a Team job, about the safe and expeditious flow of Air Traffic. Respect, man! :cool: (except for management :( )

I am an OJTI on the FIR at Swanwick, I replaced a top of the scale ATCO who earned twice what I do to do the same job which I do not begruge for one moment!.
I would concur with what has been said about Jocko not being aware of the various tasks that ATSAs do. To my knowledge there are many posts where ATCO and ATSAs do the same job but get paid diferent salaries by vertue of being in different grades.
My point is though, I have news for the various people talking about the worth of ATCO, ATSA, ATCE, etc. To the management we are all EMPLOYEES! and if they could, they would get rid of us all!. I am not being critical of management, that is what they do, and we are not helping our case by arguing amongst ourselves about our respective worth.
Guys, Its a big world out there! Why are we wasting our time arguing amongst ourselves. If you want to get angry, get angry about things that matter, War, Famine, Disease, etc. Sorry, if I sound like a hippy!
If Jocko is concerned about money, respect, worth, etc, if the PCS get the additional 4% that they are after, if Jocko e-mails me privately I shall donate those monies to a charity of his/her choice.
LOVE AND PEACE!

Jocko

My last post on the subject because clearly you are not prepared to consider stop and think about some of the points raised.

I called you ill-informed in my last post and this is why: To quote

"Yes ive noticed that the people that dont like what i said have resorted to calling me this that and the next thing." This is a real classic since you have just called your fellow colleagues who didn't vote W....krs in another thread. Can't have it both ways.

"most assistans(and i know you have different responsibilities/pay up and down the country)is that you are well paid for a job that while important,does not for most require lots of training or any particular skills and does not carry with it a great deal of resposibility."

1) The training for an ATSA at my unit takes well over a year
2) Think about the OSS post at LATCC. These guys know more about HCS than you will ever know. Isn't that a skill?
3) I can think of several instances where ATSAs have been directly involved or caused a loss of seperation. Just giving an inaccurate clearance can lead to this. Isn't this responsibility?

"I do however believe there are many controllers out there who share my point of view." This is the real problem I have with your posts. Based on a belief, you have decided to act as spokesman and post damaging remarks that will only lead to ill-feeling. Couldn't you just have kept your thoughts to yourself rather than undermine the ATSAs in such a public forum.

The basic ATSA pay in not that much out of step with the national average. What does increase it significantly is unsocial hours and shift disturbance payments. But I also have to get up at 0430 for a morning spin duty, work Christmas Day and hand-write strips at 0200 in the morning when HCS is off. This has as much of an effect on my life, family, and social life as it does yours.

I'm obviously not going to change your mind on anything, but perhaps in a few years time when the ATSA has been replaced by an electronic box of tricks with questionable reliabilty, you will draw some comfort from the fact that NATS wage bill has decreased. Or will you wish that there was somebody a little more human there to support you.

Goodbye and good luck with your camapaign.

I suggest that all of you go back read my posts and then take a deep breath.Once you have done that then you tell me where i am saying you are not important or i dont like you or anything else that questions your function in Nats.
Regarding me taking on the task of spokesman,i have expressed an opinion that like it or not is one that a lot of controllers that i talk to share.Are we all tossers and arrogant etc?
Regarding calling the 400 (minus genuine ones) Wa***rs, well they are because they have shown total apathy at a time when we should have stuck it to management and the government.Some of these people will have been there up and down the country moaning about pay and conditions but then couldnt be arsed returning a ballot paper.
There is a difference between that and people on here calling me names because i have mentioned assistants pay.
And despite the fact you will tell me that PCS told you to accept the pay deal because of bla bla bla, you didnt have to.Nobody new how the Atco branch were going to vote.So when you talk about standing together remember how you said yes we said no and now you are not happy.For those of you that said no good on you but the rest of you.....

bollocks "knew"

My friend has just asked for clarification about the musings on this site as it seems to her that we are having a " go at each other" rather than the management-surely not!
Incidently, she is a senior first officer on B747s and she earns less than most ATCOs.

LOVE AND PEACE!:

I'd like to meet a B747 pilot who earns less than 36000k pa. I know a few (underpaid) ATSAs that earn more though.

Greebson, The only ATSA's who get more are on the FIR- that who you mean?
Probably justified (at times) :D

Big Ears

Desk ASTA 4 Supervisors, wings ATSA 4s, AIS ATSA 4s, Lighting Panel ATSA 4s, In fact any ATSA 4 close to the top of their ladder get paid more that ATCO T&Ds (maybe justifiably) and ATCO 2 and 3 up to and including our spine point 2.
So when we are qouting figures earned by ATCOs in comparison to that earned by ATSAs, instead of quoting top of spine ATCO 2s against an ATSA 2 salary do like for like.

greeb, jocko, mainecoon
Yes a "lot" of ATSA4s get paid a "little" more than ATCOs...who are a/ on T and D
b/ bottom of scale.
Point a. Said ATSA4 will not get a 100pc[plus] increase in base salary over the next 10 years
Point b. I repeat, NO I have never heard "OUR" job described as "money for old rope" [It may have been discussed by non-ATSAs in their absence. On this I cannot comment]
Yes, YES YES , you earn your corn, but I honestly think that the rest of us do too.
A "minor" point. Have you ever worked a 24 [plus travel] hour day?
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

Chig
All I'm trying to say is that when it suits an argument, it seems it's okay to quote the salary of a top of the scale ATCO 2 against that of an ATSA 2. I'd be happy quoting the salary of an ATSA 2 against an ATCO 3, but the pay disparity doesn't look as impressive when "ATCO-BASHING" does it?
For the record I'm an ex ATSA 2 and ATSA 4 having worked at numerous locations in NATS and at the moment, some 3 years after making the switch, am still earning less than I would have as an ATSA.
I was an ATSA for a hell of a lot longer than I've been a controller and in some ways wish I was still one but exaggerating pay disparities does no one no help whatsoever.
For the record ATCO 3s will never get £50k a year. I suspect a lot of the ATSA complainers on this thread are from ATCO 2 units. There is a world outside Area,Heathrow,Gatwick and Manchester.
Oh and before I forget take a look at the ATCO 3 scales, I think you'll find we nowhere near double our salary.

Greebson for President!!

Greebson, really you should be comparing ATCO3 against ATSA1 New Contracts, at some airfields, and ATCO3 against ATSA1 at others. The fact that there are ATSA2's at most airfields is neither here nor there- it wasn't their fault that things were changed.

BTW, Can you explain a couple of things to me?
Why is UHP pay grade specific (within grades as well)?
Why do day-working ATSA's not get UHP?

Jocko, Are you at Scottish or is it that you have Scottish roots, or what? No need to be location specif if you don't want, just me and my mates were wondering.........

Huge Lugs

Point 1: I'd love to but they are all still top of the ladder ATSA 2s at my unit.

Point 2: 'Fraid I don't know I don't run the company

Greebson seems to be the only one with a grip on reality.

Dumbo - do you know what they pay ATSAs at airports outside NATS ? Have a guess.

Hint - If you guess over £10k you're wrong.

Now compare that to the huge wages paid in the London Area. If I were you I'd keep my head down, mouth shut and save like **** cos' the accountants have obviously sussed the ATSAs costs out. It probably costs about £60-80k to employ one ATSA (salary times 2 for adminny costs). You could buy a lot of off the shelf computers for that money.

You're on a good deal, but the numbers up - fact of life I'm afraid. Don't blame the controllers for that or for pointing it out.

And where that fits in with ATCO wages is irrelevant. However, ATCOs look like they've just had the **** taken out of them and for being such pansies deserve all the shafting they're now going to get.

Must dash - early schedules tomorrow.

PH-UKU, With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about.
I could go through each point in turn, but don't see why I should.

Ahh ..... fatal denial ? or the response of the deaf mute?

Please enlighten me, 'your Imperial Lugness', I am willing to be re-educated. :D

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(NB Chic .... 1-0 )