Why do Heathrow Director expect us to announce aircraft type on first call?
 

Can't they just look at the FPL, like every other controller does?

Or are they too busy to look it up?

And are they really busier than us?

And if it makes their job easier, why don't controllers at all busy airports expect the same help?

I believe many controllers do that in order to confirm what they have on their strip is correct and to avoid incorrect wake seperations.

CirrusF,

You'd be surprised at how many times the aircraft type on the flight plan is incorrect!

I'm sure you're aware we ask for the same prior to departure with Heathrow Delivery. How do other airports manage?....I don't know.

Every airfield that I have worked at requires pilots to report aircraft type on first contact with radar and when obtaining departure clearance, it usually says to do that on the ATIS

louby

Who else asks for it? Heathrow is the only place I've been to that expects the info on first call - most other airports that I go to know before I arrive what aircraft I am in as it is written on the FPL.

I can imagine that the info might occasionally have been wrong when operators used RPLs - but even so was it ever so unreliable that this caused major problems?

Primarily for wake vortex reasons, for conditional crossing clearances (after the landing <insert a/c type here> cross runway 27L) and so that the rescue and fire services know what they're heading for in the event of an incident (the a/c type is passed to them as well should the crash alarm need to be pushed).

Maybe other airports are just happy to take their chances that the data they have is correct, experience on a daily basis shows it isn't always so. Here's hoping they don't stuff you up the arse of something on the approach thinking it's smaller than it actually is... how's your unusual attitude recovery skills?

For a couple of seconds worth of r/t the cost in time is worth paying.

We do it at the Ice Station.

If you're a Jetstream 41 but your strip says that you're a Saab 2000 and we don't double check and stick you 4 miles behind a 737 and then you have an incident, it's our necks that are on the chopping block!

We could always take the requirement out and then fine every captain and flight deck crew whose flight plan is wrong. Might help pay for our pensions !!

Seriously though, it's there to remove an occasional risk which could result in a nasty incident or accident, as explained by those above. If you don't have the capacity to report your type due to cockpit workload issues, then maybe aviation is not for you ? :}

LHR has had a fair number of go arounds because ATC didn't appreciate the extra speed that Ground speed mini can add, particularily to a heavy 340-600 when you revert to managed speed on a windy day. This call has helped them in adjusting the spacing so I hear.

The procedure is in place to save your ass from ending up upside down in the middle of Hounslow old chap. If it pisses you off that much, maybe you should try to avoid flying into Heathrow until you're able to deal with the massive increase in workload that reporting your aircraft type entails.

Jesus wept.:ugh:

Well said, Scuzi. The originator is obviously a total cretin who deserves little response...

You obviously don't fly into Gatwick then...or Stansted, Luton and London City for that matter.

In addition to wake vortex, we check the a/c type so that there is no confusion when you are handed off to tower. If there is any type of emergency, they will be able to tell the fire service the a/c type. They may be issuing a conditional line up clearance against your a/c...rather beneficial to know then what a/c you are flying wouldnt you say? Stand allocation? I could go on....

And a polite reminder that its HEATHROW DIRECTOR who should be told on first contact and not LONDON! There is no point telling me what weather information you have either, I have no idea if that is correct or not.

It is quite amazing how many plans are filed with incorrect types. It doesn't help that the Paris computer doesn't currently have all the types and variations stored in it so London have been checking many of them. It makes a difference to us as an A340-600 climbs far better than an A340-300 so we can plan for that.

Bring on full Mode S and all the other systems that means we will no longer need to do all this............

Jeez, calm down guys, he only asked a question. No need to go off on one calling him a cretin or claiming that 'Jesus wept'!

I don't have a 772 type rating, but I'm sure many of my questions to the last 772 crew I met might have seemed pretty simple to them.:ok:

I don't think it was what was said Gonz, rather the tone in which it was said. As we all know though, that can easily be misinterpreted on forums like these :ok:

Is the confusion not because Heathrow Director is the first Heathrow frequency where at most airports you speak to radar or approach initially and the director is the frequency you call with callsign only.
eg Manchester Radar 118.575, Manchester Director 121.350.
For some reason both of the equivalent frequencies at heathrow are called director.
Confused me the first time anyway.

Another thing that eats up radio time is `When established on localiser 27 left decend with the glidepath`

Why not just 'cleared ILS 27 left'?

:D

Here we go again.....:}

plus i couldn't give a !!!!! whether it is correct or not

Having flown single pilot/single Nav aircraft, with no nice shiny glass cockpit or modern landing aids in crappy weather to moving runways, I'd say that in a multi crew modern airliner environment that the answer to your question
is most likely a resounding 'yes' and that applies to the TMA controllers as well.

With regards to the Paris computer not having all the aircraft types, surely it's the airline's operations people that sends out the initial flightplan to all the enroute adressees, and that should be the correct information. And if the company changes the operating equipment, it is up to them to send the appropriate change message.

Is this another case of catering for the lowest common denominator and not giving a swift kick up the ar$e to those who don't do the right thing?

In my brief 12 years in ATC, I can count on one hand the number of times that the operating equipment have changed and we have not been notified before the aircraft moves. Even then, the crew have a copy of the submitted flightplan and have always cross-checked and alerted us if there has been a change.

As for descending on the glidepath, don't get me started on that lowest common denominator, just-in-case crap. :ok:

Cheers,

NFR.

Most airports seem to require type as standard part of initial call for reasons previously stated so why does AMS specifically say at end of ATIS "Call approach with callsign only" (still doesn't stop some giving the full nine yards though!)

Me thinks the main reason for type confirmation is to confirm the airport landing charges.

And bring on the American callsign `123 heavy` to resolve any of the seperation problems.

Simples

super
 

has anyone noticed that sq uses '123 super' for its 380s in certain airports? is that a show off thing or do we need to know cause that whale really produces more wake than a normal 'heavy?'

Quite likely it refers to the achieved seniority and salary...:}

NFR:
When London receives the flight message from the Paris computer to activate the flight in our airspace, the message contains aircraft type. Due to Paris computer not having all the types in that London computer has throws up match discrepancies so we have to confirm the type as we do not have the filed flight plan on sector. The popular ones are A340-600 (Paris tends to send this as a A340-200) and B777-300ER, we differentiate between the long range versions and the normal ones, Paris doesn't. Its an annoyance using up yet more valuable RTF.

I've seen Emirates do that into SYD as well. Personally I think it's a good thing as it reminds the rest of us heavy drivers that we actually need to think about wake vortex separation today as we're not the heaviest thing in the sky any more.

Emirates do that into YYZ also. Outwith the wake category it is also a heads up for us as we have to inform the tower of its arrival. They need to do a runway inspection after it lands.

The reason that they ask for type is quite simple really. It's just their polite way of making sure that we know what type it is in fact that we are driving on to their precious tarmac on that particular day. Avoids unpleasantness on the ground... and you really wouldn't wish to disturb the crash crews, would you.

And what is done about it? If it is incorrect then desn't that mean it was incorrect when the aircraft departed, doesn't it mean that there might have been a BOS involving the aircraft before it got to Heathrow Director frequency, doesn't it mean that incorrect charges may be levied. A local workaround when there is perhaps a systemic problem.

What reporting occurs? I guess nothing, world's best practice, don't think so.

A380's
 

I thought that the A388 had to make all calls with "Super" to indicate wake turb category.
Could be wrong though...

Frequency can be far too busy during peak-times to wait untill xxx123 has told you all about his acft type/altitude/cleared altitude/speed/his new car/his mother-in-law's birthday etcetc..:}

Thisresponse is typical of the kind of tea-slurper who is not responsible for flying hundreds of tons of metal through the air.

How dare you!, you take that back!!!!!

he actually prefers coffee :E
ps only jokin btw

How rude, and to a fellow professional at that. I'm shocked HD!

Married a Canadian.

Why do they need to do a runway inspection ?

T:confused:

To see if any stowaways have dropped out of the undercarriage bay on landing...

Engines are tested by having frozen chickens fired at them at high speed, but are not tested agains ingesting frozen illegal immigrants. You can't be too careful

One of the first times the A380 came into YYZ they applied full reverse thrust on landing and consequently a fair amount of debris was scattered over the runway from the grass alongside. This included dead animals and supposedly lunchboxes!!?? ...(awaits obvious responses).

They check the runway now after both departure and arrival.

Come on guys... it makes sense really.

Heathrow Director has little room for error. ATC in Europe might be quick to spot an incorrect type when taxying out when compared to the FPL. However at some of the more 'colourful' airfields in the less developed world, many ATCOs won't care if the FPL says B752 and a B763 is what he/she is seeing of the tower.

In some parts of the world, ATCOs have a very poor knowledge of different aircraft types and associated aircraft performance when compared to Europe and especially the UK.

Why should the Heathrow Director trust the ATCO on 'Bongo Bongo' tower to ensure that the FPL has been correctly filed with the correct aircraft type prior to departure?

As reasonable as it sounds, one has to wonder why this very seldom required outside the UK and apparently everywhere within th UK...is this a legal problem, e.g. your necks on the block, but, say, a germans atcos neck NOT on any sort of block if operator did not file correctly?


Other q: I do fly under reg, my current airplane is a Cessna Citation Sovereign or C680. What would you consider the best/most correct way to tell you the type?
A) Just 'citation' - they could be Light or Medium
b) Citation Sovereign
or
c) C680

?

For the time being I say C680 - the icao type identifier....