the people who really profit from the banding are thames, luton, SS and KK who get band 5 pay simply for sharing the same room and breathing the same air as TMA, and LL apc controllers. maybe macc should relocate to Swanwick instead of Scoacc and then become a band 5, what do you reckon?

I reckon you're talking bollox.

What you write may have been true a few years ago but now Essex and Thames are working just as hard as anyone else a fair amount of the time and the bulk of them hold multi validations. What about your TMA colleagues that just do east or midlands or maybe just capital if there's any of those?

And they say it's the Heathrow controllers that have the walk on water, look down nose attitude :rolleyes:

From what I understand, most Heathrow controllers are glad not to have an Essex validation? There is busy, but routine and then there is the airspace surrounding Barkway!

As NATS pay generally dictates the salary levels paid at non NATS airports, it is useful to have an understanding of of what the 'market leader in UK ATC pay' is doing, rather than hiding it away?

Essex and Gatwick are busy all the time now, especially during the summer. How often do you see an LL controller working their arse off at 3 in the morning? Usually theyre on a long sleep or kipping in the ops room as are most of the TMA,whilst their KK and SS colleagues are up to their neck in planes and bandboxed for the most part.
This banding thing really should be put to bed...people should just accept it or move on if bothers them that much.

BUSTER THE BEAR!!! I DON'T THINK SO !! If you need to big yourself up come down to EGLL and train:ok::ok::ok: Or maybe you have already but it wasn't for you all that simple, boring , high workload traffic:O:O
If there was no night noise restrictions i am sure we would still be landing 40 an hour:ok:

mr 777, you must be joking surely. how can gatwick be working their ass off at 3 in the morning if the tma is asleep? do all tha planes magically appear from the continent straight into your airspace?

mmmmm, no, they work the tma first. same goes with essex, surely the aircraft they work all come from east or north or capital.

Unless of course, you were complimenting tma controllers who can do such a spanking good job whilst asleep compared to essex and kk who are clinging on bandboxed (heaven forbid) with less traffic once you minus the outbound flights that you dont work ,which the snoozy tma boys and gals do.
I do not begrudge you band 5, just saying that you get a better deal for it at the present time.

my pee pee is bigger than your pee pee......

:ugh:



Shhhhh teacher is coming!

I'mnotanERIC,

Complete Bolleaux.

1. Thames controllers must validate on another discipline. The only reason there are Thames only people at the moment is a) waiting to be cross trained or b) waiting for minimum time after 1st validation to pass before then joining the queue at point a.

2. SS and KK, although not as busy as LL, are less regimented and therefor probably more complex (wrt purely vectoring issues and the snags that come with not following the same track constantly like LL guys)... I'm not gonna get into the hassle that ensues when something happens to upset the regimented flow into LL.

3. Luton - see point 1 - replace 'Thames' with 'Luton'

ROFFA

a) For East only validations see point 1 above, replace 'Thames' with 'East'

b) Mids only? Midlands is a core sector and rightly so, tho like most people with a core validation at TC (i.e. they hold a validation that fulfills the MUR), most Midlands controllers will cross train on another sector.
The reason Mids is a core sector is plain to see by anyone in the TC OPs room.

c) Capital is never a first validation - ab initios would get blown away and taught all the wrong things. Ensuring separation is a long distant memory on Cap. Yes it's quiet 60% of the time, but when it's busy, it's probably the nastiest sector in the room. CAP only valid people (if indeed there are any) are possibly people who are fulfilling other tasks outside the OPs room whilst retaining a validation 14hrs a month.

Mr 777

During the wee small hours of night duty (after the SS rush at 2230) SS and KK get one A/C every 10 mins maximum when averaged out (and thats a generous estimate).. Admiteddly 2 or 3 may come in a 10 min period, followed by silence for the next 10-15 minutes, but SS and KK are not working their butts off - otherwise why would there only be one controller present for a 3 hour period?

KK are never bandboxed with anyone else or are you intimating that bandboxing means INT and FIN? If so, you need to experience other sectors to get an understanding.

TMA sectors are bandboxed (i.e. South/CAP; South/East; CAP/north, North/Midlands) depending on who is rostered on nights. Long sleeps are given out because of this bandboxing - we need the numbers to cover
a) the first and last 90 mins of night duties and
b) if someone has an incident.

For someone allegedly working in the TC OPs room, you have a very limited knowledge of what happens outside your single validation!

SS and KK, although not as busy as LL, are less regimented and therefor probably more complex (wrt purely vectoring issues and the snags that come with not following the same track constantly like LL guys)... I'm not gonna get into the hassle that ensues when something happens to upset the regimented flow into LL.
Dream on!!! If you have never done it then don't comment:=
Before you start i have:O

Now come on, this is getting embarrassing! We know all you radar 'controllers' just play computer games all day long.:p











I'll get me coat.

ViaEGLL

You are correct... I've never done it, would not want to. However, LL APP is a very regimented and disciplined skill. As I said clearly in my post, wrt (thats with regards to) purely the vectoring side of things, LL is not IMHO as complex - you guys cram a heck of a lot of A/C down the glidepath one after the hour relentlessly, but they all come from 4 known points.

Time and experience means that you can tell exactly when to take something off the hold to slot in with the correct spacing - it's almost a mathematical formula. Once you have your headings of the day etc, it should not be too difficult (with respect to the vectoring side of things).

There more variables at KK etc as although they take things from holds, they quite often- because they have the room and the opportunity, use the whole of the RMA for vectoring to set up a stream (something LL cannot do easily due to the constraints of procedures etc) - so therefore it is more complex, or in otherwords, not so routine.

I am not arguing, and never insinuated in my previous post that I thought the overall task at LL App was less complex - but of course, you would not have read that properly as you look down from your ivory tower, you just immediately went on the defensive!

And to be fair, you guys do get a lot of kip at night!!:ok:

Split from the NATS Pay Rise thread .... it was getting way off topic there :)

I did London Approach for 31 years... but thank God I never had to have a try at Essex or Thames. Those people work seriously hard.....

What's ImnotanERIC waving? It's so small I can't see anything.

Well just supposing Nats decides to have a TC at the New Prestwick Centre for PF,PH,PD.What Band would those controllers be on ?
Do you think that Nats will ever have different Bands at the same unit?

Yes, the time will come when they have to. Regardless of all other arguments on this and the banding thread, if NATS is to continue with a banding system then it is illogical to pay somebody who does North/Mids or South/Mids or South/North the same money as somebody who does East/Cap or Luton radar.

Perhaps there should be a 'core sector' payment whereby you get £x per year for working a core sector. That way, those who do 2 (and work harder for longer) will earn more than those who don't do any.

Same old story
 

So-all you people who have never validated, or were unable to validate on LL radar, pontificate as to how easy it is! Look around the TC ops room and explain why all the other app sectors are full of people who didn`t make the grade at LL-------BUT----- now operate quite succeessfully on these so called busier and more complicated sectors. Don`t make me laugh!

I hear there's a WM at a large unit who never validated on radar at ANY NATS unit.

Is that failed to validate,or was a tower only?

Anotherthing-You are still commenting on LL and yet never been valid :=
I don't look down from any tower let alone an ivory one .I just state the facts and get a little cheesed off with people giving their views without having done it:mad:
Splitduty does have a point:p:p

If ss and KK are more difficult than LL, howcome trainees are now allowed more hours to reach validation standard on LL than they were previously??

As an aside, I have heard it talked about in the coffee lounge and have to say I agree, that people should get paid more for doing day shifts and therefore being exposed to heavier traffic levels than those who do nights.
what do you lot think?

splitduty wrote -

1) They involve a different type of controlling and require a different mindset -

I have never been valid on either at TC, but have been in the business a long time at more than one unit - any ATCO worth his or her salt should be able to recognise and accept that different disciplines (app/area) and even more so, different sectors (north/south or cap/mids etc) require different techniques.
Techniques that in some cases, some people cannot come to terms with.

2) People who have failed at LL APP who then go on to validate at another APP sector in the room have, by then, had the benefit of receiving a heck of a lot more training/instruction than normal.

Would they have validated at the other App sectors if they had not had the benefit of extended training (and extended exposure to real, not simulated traffic)?

It's a question that cannot be answered with one hundred percent certainty, but no one can deny that extra time training, regardless if on the same or a different sector can only be beneficial and will surely help 'weaker' trainees.

Either that or the whole ethos of the training system vis a vis granting extra hours to see if a trainee can get over a particular hurdle is flawed.

Therefore, viaEGLL, splitduties point is somewhat flawed!

No one is denying LL APP is intense, however, the 'little' airports (the ones that operate mixed mode day in day out to a single runway as it were) are not the sleepy hollows that I'mnotanERIC implies.

Anotherthing- I have been at both as i said before !!!! Single rwy sleepy hollow and LL :ugh::ugh:
Extra hours are now being given on LL due more special flight nearly all day everyday i.e . more consolidation time.The idea that people have different skills and thinking maybe correct for tower - radar but the basic working of KK/LL approach are the same but the workloading and capacity levels are totally different.
[QUOTE]2) People who have failed at LL APP who then go on to validate at another APP sector in the room have, by then, had the benefit of receiving a heck of a lot more training/instruction than normal.[QUOTE]
Yes, but they have also been working at a greater capacity therefore when training on KK/SS/GW it will be easier because it is less demanding:p
So why don't you bring your wealth of experience and have a go at LL you never know you may just validate:O:O

I'mnotanERIC, and viaEGLL

WRT extra hours - it has been identified at TC that there is an increasing incidence of trainees on certain sectors reaching level 5/6 then getting chopped (nothing to do with more 'special flights' viaEGLL, that is one factor amongst many - see below). The extra hours have been added at these stages on these sectors to see if it will help. It is probably a stop gap solution for the moment - The UTP has not kept up with the increase in traffic/complexity at TC (or I dare say any other unit) and needs revising.

The extra hours you mention are just one 'solution'. There has also been a lot of meetings/memos regarding tightening up report writing and differentiating the roles of instructors and assessors - hopefully this will mean that problems are identified earlier in the training process and extra hours (via remedial training) can be allocated at the appropriate time to allow instructors and trainees to iron out things, before progressing to the next level.

Day spinning bonuses(!)

People doing day spins effectively get an extra day off - the sleep day for night people. They receive UHP along with everyone else - quite a healthy payment.

If rostering is done correctly(!), day spins and night duties should be spread around... Yes, in the summer day spinners work their socks off, but in the winter they get a lot of 'early go's(sp)'.

An early go on a night duty is obviously not an option! At TC we have 'long sleeps' you might get one on one of your nights - it's about 5 and a half hours, thats if you can get to sleep on the 'beds' in the stuffy rooms (a problem many people have) - most people end up getting around 2 hours decent sleep a night... this does tend to make you more tired on your days off - certainly affecting the quality of your first couple of days off.

Night duties do not benefit from enhanced relief either, therefore although quieter, you do not get as many breaks etc. On a night duty you are left more to your own devices with less back up than daytime.

If you read what DTY/LAKES writes in your thread, he/she considers the traffic loading to be fairly high.

All in all, it probably balances out - asking for more money for doing your job during the day is just wishful thinking!

edited to reply to viaegll re extra hours - postings crossed

ViaEGLL wrote

Nice to see how you view other airports in the London TMA!! (The same airports that over the past few years have shown a significant increase in traffic levels both in their own right and compared to EGLL)

In my posts on this thread (from before it was split) I have never intimated that LL was less demanding than the other airports. I have stated that IMO from one aspect - the vectoring, it is less complex. You follow a standard track, the variable being the wind of the day. This is more regimented than the other airports. (I also stated that when something happens to upset that flow, bedlam ensues because of the other problems associated with your task).

The reason it is more regimented is because of all the other aspects of LL that make it more demanding (lack of airspace, number of A/C etc)..... It's the only efficient way LL APP can operate. It's some (sometimes all) of these aspects some trainees cannot get their heads around.

Unfortunately, some people (including ATCOs amazingly) cannot get their head around the fact that what makes an ATCOs job difficult and demanding is a combination of things - airspace restrictions, frequency restrictions, Number of A/C, Variation of types of A/C, Runways available etc.

Or are you trying to tell us that in all aspects of ATC, within the APP community, LL APP comes out as the most demanding in every variable? :ugh:

Do you lot really not see how childish this looks... ? :uhoh:

he started it :}

I don't care who started it... You'll all be going straight to your room with no dinner!

..........:{

anotherthing----
your last post displays your lack of understanding of the LL task. One of the main reasons people fail at LL is precisely because aircraft do NOT simply follow the same tracks. Trainees have to be able to demonstrate very quick and flexible vectoring to keep the whole show moving. Ask a TMA controller if LL use all of the RVAs ,or always leave the stacks on precisely the same headings? Another thing for you to ponder------some ATCO`s came back to LL after failing 1st time round, (having subsequently validated at your more `complex` sectors)-- and guess what? They failed again!

That was a qoute "Sleepy hollow"!!!
As you say you have lots of experience in in ATC and so do i, so this is my view having done busy single rwy ops and LL radar .Having not done either yourself perhaps you should not be such a know it all!!
I would not pass comment on TMA or Enroute because i have no experience of them, which is why your arguement is flawed.
I think SPLITDUTY has summed you up :D:D:D Now straight to bed with no milk:=:=:=

It's true... you guys really do think you are the best. No point arguing with closed minds.

Via EGLL - I am not saying I have done neither (because I have done similar) - I said I had not done them at TC!

Let's put this thread to bed - as it is going round in circles!

Bed!! But no milk for you:p:p
Please don't stop i was enjoying it so much;);)

But if this is the TC Willy Waving thread, does that mean the ladies in TC have a w.....:eek: Must be embarrassing come their annual medical:E

Hat, coat and off to bed early (with no milk) for me then:{

showing your age there, annual medicals!!:}

It's revealing to look at the post-TVC pass rate for ab initios. It's almost unheard of to fail when training is started on SS, KK or Thames APC.

The ab initio pass rate on LL APC must be less than 70% on recent form. Of course those failures usually go on to validate on SS, KK or Thames.

So this would suggest that LL is harder, despite how complex that bit of airspace around BKY is, and how Thames does battle with only two levels, a tiny RMA and RT-blocking eedjits who think it's a LARS.

Foghorn

Perhaps the training is worse.

Duck

Incoming

Willy waving?If I'd stuck to that I wouldn't have been divorced 3 times!And for those of you who think atc is hard(intense at times agreed)try a "proper job"like my partner does for :mad: all money.

tczulu, don't forget to change your user name to reflect new watch colours dictat.

'TCGinger' doesn't have the same ring to it as 'TCZulu' though :E