I feel for you Dave Z. Just bug them until you can get some proper feedback. Although I'm pretty sure you probably don't feel up for that at the moment.

Hi

I've a couple of quick questions.

I've just been for my first stage which I thought went well, however you never can tell. I am annoyed that I revised every plane, speed, flight level seating capacity etc and don't think it was really all that necessary.

Obviously the selection process is pretty gruelling and would imagine only about 1% of applicants actually make it. If you are unsuccesful is there any other way of becoming a traffic controller?

I've noticed that you can do it in the RAF, would you then be able to transfer to a civillian based role (such as NATS) after you'd served your time???

Cheers

Hi all. I'm just revising for stage 1 and have found this post incredibly helpful so first of all a big thank you to everyone who has made a useful contribution. :)

I've got a couple of queries if I may. I hope these are new but I apologise if they've been on here before. I don't remember reading them though.

Firstly, with the dreaded cubes is there always a triangle on one of the sides? I have made up a load of example questions using different nets and patterns and have found them much harder when the triangle is not there. If there are questions without a triangle on the net somewhere then I'll bias my practice more towards those questions.

Secondly, are the questions for the motivaton paper set from the motivation document irrespective of whether they are accurate? For example page 2 talks about the London Terminal Control Centre being located in West Drayton and page 3 says that the aviation industry is just pulling out of the recession caused by September 11th 2001. I would argue that neither of these statements are true any more but they are both things which have the potential of being asked on the paper. As it is a multiple choice test there is no way to state what your answer is based upon.

Thanks in advance to anyone able to help clarify those points. :)

Ok, thats fair enough. As long as I know. Thanks for the reply.

I've just thought of something else. I know learning the distances between major european destinations has been highlighted as something worth learning a few times. Presumably the most useful unit for an ATCO is nautical miles, but are options given for the answers in nm or statute miles? I could convert them in my head but that's precious seconds lost.

Thanks again. :)

Ok, nm it is then. Many thanks!

Hi,

I'm through to Stage 2 (haven't booked a date yet) and was wondering if anyone knew the criteria for travelling expenses reimbursment. It says in the email that overnight accomodation will only be reimbursed in exceptional circumstances. I will be travelling down from the North East so realistically would have to stay overnight. Would this be classed as a valid reason?

A mish mash of answers...
 

Trying to answer multiple questions in one post... look out for your name!

Marco888: There should always be some dates on the system for Stage 3, but not for all locations. I was in a hurry to have my Stage 3 since I'd already been offered other jobs, so went to Manchester instead of waiting for a Glasgow date 4-6 weeks later. NATS are ok with this, and you can claim expenses wherever you choose to go.

Abz217: http://natscareers.co.uk/docs/test_materials.doc is what you're looking for.

Dave Z: Sorry to hear you didn't make it. Have you had any feedback from HR? I understand it's usually pretty helpful.

Jacka27: I know it might seem that you wasted a lot of time on the aircraft info for Stage 1, but questions get more specific as you go on and it's easier to learn this stuff over time rather than cramming (for me anyway). And if you make it, you'll need to know this stuff anyway. If you feel confident how you've done, the next stage is to start learning what the aircraft look like - useful for Stage 3 although included in Stage 2 pack.

As for other ways to become an air traffic controller, read this thread: http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/361...ough-nats.html. Your profile seems to indicate that you're over 24, so unfortunately Eurocontrol is out. For going into the RAF, I don't think selection is any easier and you are an officer first, ATC second, so no guarantee you'll spend all your time controlling. See http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/361...ing-civil.html and http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/362...g-raf-atc.html for more info and lifestyle stuff etc. And I think you need to go to the NATS college even after being an RAF controller if moving from military to civil, but I'm sure someone else can confirm that.

Gingerpaul: I can't honestly remember if there's always a black triangle, but there is always one shape that is the 'marker' - ie. your reference point. It might change shape, but there is always one there that helps you the same way the black triangle does.

And finally....DaleyDFC: Expenses are a funny thing with NATS since if you progress further, you'll discover the expense form is the same at each stage but the emails often contradict it! Basically, whatever you spend on travel, you must pay the first £50 (or all of it if your claim is less than £50). As far as I know (from HR) the limit is around £150 return for flights/trains/etc, and £50 for overnight accommodation. HR recommend the Premier Inn Fareham (£64 a night) so essentially the 'excess' above the £50 limit (£14) is paid by your compulsory £50 contribution. Confusing, but that's how it works. If you get through to medical and travel for all your stages (and it costs more than £50), expect your application to cost £150..... I always called HR out of courtesy to check they'd be ok with me staying overnight (it was always unavoidable as I live in the middle of nowhere) and they were always fine about it.

Sorry for mammoth post!

Thanks Paperclip. :)

Abz217

Just got your email. The link is the one Paperclip lists above.

With regard to the landing order question a few posts back;

I got asked the same question in my interview when I went through, started with C172/737/747 in that order. It definitely wasn't posed as a question that had a 'right' answer, more testing your reasoning and thought processes behind decisions, and how you reacted to new information or a change in the scenario. I can't quite remember what was brought into the picture to change it around though.

They are looking for the scope to learn a lot of information and then apply it quickly when the situation demands it. In truth, this scenario doesn't really have a 'right' answer as cases can be made for most orders, as long as the order is safe in terms of separation.

There was one from HR I would have been more than ok to stay overnight with ;)

As folk have said regarding the sequencing question, there isn't really a correct answer, moreso for someone who hasn't trained to be an ATCO. The best sequence I have personally heard is:

IF the aircraft were all equal distance from establishing finals, let the 737 down first, closely followed by the 747 and finally the Cessna.

End of the day, the wee Cessna won't use anywhere near as much fuel when it's up there doing it's thing circling. Also, the airliners give a helluva lot more money to the industry with their landing fee's and all, so essentially they pay more to land. And finally, the 737/747 crew and pax are already exhausted from what could be a 3-14 hour flight... The Cessna was probably up for fun, and they'd enjoy staying in the sky that little bit longer :zzz:

Cheers paperclip for the info re expenses.

Also, is there a limit to how long you can take between stages? I passed stage 1 at the end of Feb but due to there been no dates left in March and me getting married and therefore out of the country for most of April it's gonna be into May before I can do mine.

If I were you I'd phone them and make sure they know - otherwise they may withdraw your application.

Thanks paperclip and ginger paul for the info
Jus wanted to no if that is everything i need for stage 1 and what else do they require you to learn????????

DaleyDFC: I considered waiting for a date closer to home and was told if oyu don't select a date with 2 weeks of receiving an email inviting to to book a date, your aplication can be withdrawn. However, a quick call to HR will sort that - if you know you can't do much for a while, they 'suspend' your application until you come back and are ready to continue.

Abz217: That's all the learning info - the rest of your time will be spent practising the tests I guess!

What type of tests??????
Yea i no they will probably ask me questions on this information i just downloaded but is there anywhere i can find practice tests???

Abz... have you applied yet? All the info is sent to you when you confirm a stage 1 date.

No man i havent applied yet but will apply in april
i just thought if i cant get my hands on the information now then i can get a bit of a head start if you know what i mean lol:ok:
so is there anything else i need to know or is that the only document i need??????

Right ok thanks

Apptitude test????? What does that consist of???

Abz...

If you aren't already, some of the best prep you can do before you apply is to spend some time reading through this thread. Even reading maybe 5/10 pages at a time will pretty much cover everything you will come across for all the stages of the selection process, especially stage 1. Everyones opinions and experiences combine to give a rounded picture of what its like... It'll be well worth the time :ok:

personality questionnaire
 

iv been avoiding pprune for about 2weeks now but thought its about time i faced reality and how i never got in to ATC. passed stage one but failed on the personallity questionaire. i actually found that more difficult than the aptitude tests and so on. these questionnaires are proven to be an accurate way of testing down to facts and figures and therefore, i cannot argue with it:)

obviously, peoples brains work in different ways. the aptitude exams test your ability to learn things and how well u can remember them and people who r good at maths and sciency subjects tend to excel at these. the personality questionnaire on the other hand is an accurate way of simply testing your brain and i believe people who are better at english and more creative subjects would be in their comfort zone on a test like this.

unfortunatley, i am crap at these kind of tests but i believe if my brain cannot do it naturally (when i say 'do it' i mean put my personality on paper) im going to have to suss it out and learn to do it:ok: easier said that done! i just found it sooo difficult to choose the statements, i tried being honest but found myself saying 'hmmm i like that, but i like that too, oh and i like that, ohh iv not told them i like doing that' or got to questions where i didnt have the slightest clue what i liked best!!

i was wondering if anyone had any advice about the test and what i could do to somehow improve my ability for it?!

sorry for the length of this post, i just remembered when i was sitting my aptitude tests there were quite a few people on this forum who were raging about failing it and couldnt figure it out. usually tended to be people who failed found it unfair and inaccurate and the ones that passed seemed to find it fair, hmmmm :hmm: trying to not get disheartened by it and put on a brave face by saying i will figure it out for next year but am really gutted about it:(

hope someone can share some light on this,
claire

hey clairey fairy!
To be honest you can't really cheat the personality questionnaire! I failed it the first time round and just passed it the second time I took it. All I can suggest doing to help you is to look into the job properly, read through the nats site and get into the mindset of exactly what they are looking for. Thats the way I did it, got myself into the mindset of being an ATC and exactly what they need.
Even if you do cheat the system, the quick fire questions at stage 2 will catch you out so theres really no point on doing it!

clairey fairy,

I think people should not worry too much about the personality tests... it is just that... a personality test. Everyone has a personality :8 so that personality will somehow show in the test. The fact that during the test you thought:

probably indicates that you were thinking too much about what people reading the results would think of you. Putting it bluntly, you should not worry about that at all. It has been said many times before, you just need to be honest and know yourself reasonably well (easier said than done).

I am not sure whether this can be of any use, but here is a little piece of advice: if you have doubts about a particular question because there is more than one answer that you would select and you are not sure which one "they" would prefer... just forget about "them"... think about your closest friend, your parents/brothers/sisters/partner, what would they say of you in that particular scenario? Guessing their answer would probably help you determine which answer is *more* right for you (their answer would be direct and honest without thinking about tests and the like). Having said that, I am not advising people to have their closest friend/relative sit the test and answer it on their behalf... that would not work :ok:.

One last point: I have to disagree with your idea that people better at english or creative subjects are more comfortable with personality tests. People are more or less comfortable there independent of their professional orientation.

Best of luck with your next attempt!

Thanks maco888 and Aj

I will be going to the library after school to get out a few books on atc. Any books you would recommend???? if so e-mail me before 2.00 if anyone is on before then...

Anyways thanks everyone for the great advice. I am on page 50 on this forum and am continuing to read the rest. I cant help realising that most people around 18/19/20 years old fail the first part of the test on their first time round... would the examiner fail you because of your age because they might think that if they do pass first time round then you will have to wait a while before actually getting into the course?????? because you have to be 21 before you can hold a radar licence, and he might think that you may as-well do the first part again for some bazar reason...

I dont no my head keeps wanting to know things like this :ugh::ugh:

You're given a score for each test and there will be a pass mark. If you're even one mark off you fail. Nothing to do with age so don't worry about it. NATS would have to be particularly careful and not show any ageism these days so I wouldn't worry about that.

Cheers marco

well ill take out the ATC a-z book after school and read it and hopefully that will give me an insight on what i need to do and what it actually intails

Cheers for your help anyways

Regarding personality questionnaires, in my non-expert opinion they're designed to make it look like you're contradicting youself when you aren't as much as gauging your personality. Those trying to fake the test then get caught out by answering the way they think the tester wants it answered. You are much better shooting from the hip, disregarding all answers that you have given so far. You might get asked "Do you like to relax by spending time by yourself?" and answer yes, but that doesn't mean you can't answer yes to "Do you enjoy spending your time off socialising with your friends?". That example is a bit simplistic but I'm sure you can see the point I'm making. They might look like contradictions, but they're not.

Attended stage 1 today (13.03.09) @ Hilton, London.

Enjoyed the testing session though a bit distracted during one of the tests from what sounded like someone being kicked out of another room for cheating (we were split into groups).

Would I be right in assuming Andy, the guy who attended from NATS is 'Gonzo'?

*Jeremy Clarkson voice*
Some say his skin tastes exactly like watercress, and in high winds he can reach Mach 4 just by flapping his arms...

All we know is that he's called "Gonzo".... and that you won't get his identity out of him very easily :ok:

Ooooh magical.

ive definitely only ever seen gonzo with his headset over his crash helmet, however i would doubt that was gonzo at your stage one today... :}

Okay I guess somebody had to raise the issue of Gonzo's crash helmet...

http://www.proracer.com.au/images/MR11PkFlwr%20SML.jpg

I wish I could see his face when he logs on and reads his own legends....

I think Gonzo is more involved in the later stages than at stage 1.

I read the first half of this thread, but stopped as it was occupying a bit too much time :O


I attended the stage 1 morning session at London Bridge today.

54 people in total.

I thought I did alright in the basic, spacial, and diagram tests but was guessing in the 'motivation' paper as I didn't revise enough.

To the people attending stage 1 soon, read the .doc file they sent you in the e-mail.. again and again and again!!!111

Dim Sum,

I hope you've done ok! :)

Can I be cheeky and ask what kinds of things were catching you out? I think I know the motivation paper back to front (apart from aircraft stats, which are proving a little trickier). Any sort of "past paper" examples would be great to check it's all gone it.

Just learn everything they say in the paper. Pretty much all of it was used. The aircraft data only formed part of 1 or 2 questions in the paper I was tested on. If you have no experience what so ever in aviation you'll probably find it hard. If you have been working with aircraft and airlines or have a PPL you could probably pass it without needing to read the document. It's going to need to be learnt off by heart sooner or later so just get it done now!:ok:

There were around 62 at the afternoon assessment! Didn't think there would be that many people willing to take assessment on Friday 13th! Will let you know how I did (not getting my hopes up!)

student88,

Thanks for the advice. I've gone through and learnt everything, all details about aircraft aside for the moment, so I think I should be ok. At university I always used to work through past papers so learning without testing my knowledge is a new way of revising for me. I have written some basic past papers myself but obviously I know what the answers are because I wrote the paper. Perhaps that in itself means it's all gone in. I was just fishing for any examples Dim Sum might have remembered that he wasn't expecting.

I've got my fingers crossed for you making the next round! :)

student88,

Was you in London? If so, I'm wondering how 62 people fitted into the lounge comfortably.


gingerpaul,

student88 is right in by learning everything in that .doc file. If you remember most of it then you'll answer most of the Qs easily.
A pointer is learning aircraft related measurement units, e.g. speed/distance/time.

Hi

I have a visit to Manchester ACC today. Does anybody know roughly how long it will take?