Stage 1 on 25th January
 

Hey I was one of the 30 people on the stage 1 at Fareham and im a little nervous about the pass rate for the spatial awareness test. If it's anything over 50% im stuffed as I only answered 21 out of 40. Think the other tests went ok but waiting for results is torture. Anybody know of the approximate pass rates for S1 assessments? :ok:

Firstly, I don't use Mode S and not been taught a great deal, so this may be fundamentally flawed. No idea what the 3 characteristics are, but what they might be:

Mode S (unlike Modes A and C) isn't dependent on a pilot setting a squawk on his transponder. Each aircraft has its own personal identification so that means less risk of people setting the wrong squawks, misidentification, etc.

From an Area/Approach point of view, it provides much more information which helps the controller work out what's going on and also help improve safety. eg. If you tell an aircraft to descend to flight level 100, Mode S allows you to see both the level the aircraft is currently at, and the level that is set. If the level set is FL90, you can go straight back to them and ask them to check their level. Can help avoid level busts, etc.

Good for stacks - provides a 'vertical stack' image - otherwise on radar a stack looks a bit messy as everyone's flying over each other.

I'm sure there's plenty on the internet on Mode S, where it's used, etc etc - have a look!

paperclip, you still set a Mode A squawk on a Mode S transponder (well at least for now) and the radar system still uses the same Mode A code to callsign conversion (for commercial flights with flight numbers at least). Also, the same conspicuity squawks are still used (7000, 7500, 7600 and 7700 etc.). Mode C is just the altitude part which is the same.

The main benefit of Mode S is the fact that the radar can selectively interrogate a particular transponder (after it's built up a list of all those it can see) rather than getting replies from every single Mode A/C transponder that it can see which can lead to the radar processor getting overwhelmed with replies (and phenomena called garbling and fruiting!).

The extra info you talk about is only available from aircraft with enhanced (I think that's what they call it) Mode S, which is pretty much all commercial air traffic with flight management systems (FMS) on board. Smaller General Aviation (GA) aircraft do not have the facility to send the extra info, but the basic aircraft ID and altitude will be there.

Anyhow, that's way too much info for this thread!

Disclaimer: I start college next week and it's been a couple of years since I did ATPL theory, so some of this may be slightly wrong or a little too simple. Caveat emptor.

JonathanB,

You're right in that most of Mode S capabilities are not yet used by many service providers - transponder settings, etc etc - but I got the impression that the way the NATS info pack was written was aimed at looking to the future, and so was pointing out what it will be like once you're probably valid.

NATS are primarily concerned with Enhanced Mode S as this is being used in the London TMA and a lot of the traffic is the big commercial stuff rather than GA. Apologies for not including a caveat that this wasn't all happening now, and was more NATS focussed info.

Presumably then Mode S is effectively telling the controller what the programmers have dialed into their computers (pilots into the autopilot!)?

Re: Stage 1

Didnt go too bad, a lot depends on the pass mark.

The ATC motivation test was a piece of cake, with the comments on the nats website and here being particularly prudent. If you know everything in that document you wont have a problem, though there are a few calculations (all very simple!) and some distances to guesstimate.

Spatial Awareness is, i imagine, the one most would fail on. I dont think theres time to do every question, even if there wasnt an option E throughout the test (i.e. one of the shapes was correct every time!). I completed about 70-75% of them if i remember correctly, with a few educated guess's within those. A quick glance round when i popped to the toilet post test suggested most had completed around 50 - 75%. Afterwards most agreed that it was the most difficult test, not so much with the questions, more because of them time. This wasnt helped by the examiner not giving any indication of a test end time (written on the board or something) or a indication when time was almost up. I suppose this stops people guessing the remaining questions to an extent.

Oh, re Spatial Awareness, i didnt help myself by downing a bottle of lucozade pre event. By midway through the spatial awareness test i was desperate for the toilet and lost concentration for a minute which, during a 20 minute test, is a lot of time. The advice therefore is to go before you go into the room. I suspected we'd have a video to sit through first and therefore didnt and almost regretted it.

Diagramming, not too bad, easier than above though there were some tricky commands and at times it was easy to get confused. Completed about 80%. Key is to work down the columns, but also to check for any cancel commands before you start, saves a bit of time.

With both of the above the NATS document isnt much of a help, they are both much harder.

Final test was numeracy and this i found relatively simple, completing it just in time. There was only 1 question i wasnt 100% sure of, had a choice between 2 which seemed fair enough. If you can get used to figuring out distance per minute based on a specific mph it will help you, and remembering the simple ones (360mph = 6 miles a minute, etc!)

So i think im close, but that depends on the pass marks. My friend did the test today also and struggled with the spatial awareness, evidently thinking he had much more time and thinks he's failed as a result, but we'll see.

Good luck to the others that were there today :)

It's all rather confusing! I don't see the Mode A style codes being ditched any time soon though! :)

Actually I managed to finish this one back when I had my stage 1 in September. I didn't have time to check all my answers thoroughly (managed to check about half of them), so might have made a few mistakes, but I was able to work them all out properly and wasn't simply guessing.

I wouldn't worry too much about it though, I think most people complete about 50-75% of it and I wouldn't be suprised if the pass mark is as low as 50% on this paper. I certainly know of people who have got through having only completed a little over half the paper.

If you do fail at this hurdle I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. Spatial awareness (particularly the kind of cube tests NATS use) requires a very specific mental aptitude, and its not one that is easily learnt (i.e. for most people you can either do it or you can't, practice will help you improve but only by so much). I think even if you are only able to get about 50% correct in the time you should be able to pat yourself on the back and safely consider yourself substantially more proficient in that aptitude than most. I know many very bright and intelligent people who are simply unable to get their heads around these and would struggle to get even 1 or 2 correct under pressure and within the time limit.

LessThanSte,

Sounds like you're over-stating the case regarding Mode S. It simplifies data that's being caught on radar. Instead of receiving sometimes garbled data from a group of aircraft it enables controllers to deal with aircraft on a one-on-one basis, giving them clearer and more precise information to work with.

Please correct me if I'm wrong anybody, but that's the simplest way of explaining it from my point of view :)

I might be wrong, but I'm not sure that's quite right. The "garbling" issue isn't about the controller but the radar system. My understanding is that basically prior to mode S the transponders on all the aircraft in the sky are all sending data back to the radar receiver at the same time, sometimes if there are too many aircraft all transmitting at once the radar receiver can't cope and isn't able to decode all the information it is being sent and present it to the controller in an intelligeble way on the radar screen. It's a bit like if you're in a room and several people all try and speak to you at once - if you were to try and work out what they were all saying simultaneously you'd most likely fail to actually work out what any of them are saying, your brain can only cope with one (or at best two if you are an amazing multitasker) person speaking to you at a time. In short, trying to concentrate on too many pieces of information at once results in you taking none on board, it all becomes "garbled".

Obviously when a radar system experiences that problem its not very handy for the controller who needs that information to do his/her job. Going back to the analogy, the best way to communicate effictively with all the people in your room is to listen to them one at a time. I believe this is what Mode S is doing. It avoids garbling by focusing on the return of one a/c, getting it all down without any confusion, then moves on to the next one, and so on and so on... I believe Mode S does this by actively interrogating individual transponders, but am prepared to be corrected by someone who knows a little more.

Very much what I intended to say, you just articulated it far better than me! :ok:

hatemyjob,

Re your eyesight issue, in the last few months (Sept '09) the medical has changed from the old CAA Class 1 to the new European Class 3.

There are differences between the two though no idea if eyesight requirements is one of them.

More info here, here and here.

Not a real ATCO but I can claim a bit of knowledge about ATM Systems.

The discussion on Mode S has strayed a little from the original question. The Track Data Block (TDB) is the small block of text associated with an aircraft's target on the radar display. The TDB contains information about the flight some of which it gets from the radar responses and some which it gets from the flight plan. With Mode A/C the radar response gives us position, height/altitude and its Mode A identification. Using the Mode A we can add callsign and destination from the flight plan. With enhanced Mode S the aircraft will downlink a lot of additional data some of which can be displayed on the TDB. With most modern systems the TDB can be moved around the target and the ATCO will have some choice over the amount of information included. The TDB is always a compromise between giving the controllers the information they want and their contradictory wish to have an uncluttered display.

Although this extra information is very useful and is the visible advantage of Mode S for most controllers there are other advantages of Mode S which are probably more important. First, as others have said, Mode S uses selective addressing of aircraft transponders. This reduces considerably the problems of garbling, which happens when replies from two or more aircraft arrive at the ground receiver at the same time, and unwanted replies to other ground stations which have to be filtered out. The reduction in garbling means radar can be used in the stacks where previously it was too unreliable which in turn allows the use of safety tools like the Vertical Stack List which just wouldn't work properly with Mode A/C. Second it overcomes the problem of there not being enough Mode A codes to go round in some parts of Europe at peak times. For backward compatibility the Mode S transponders downlink the selected Mode A code to be used by the current generation of ground systems. Future ground systems will use the flight plan id to do those things the Mode A code is currently used for. The Mode A and Flight Plan Id still have to be entered by the aircraft crew.

The IAA website has some information on NOTA.

How the VORs are used for the stacks is difficult to describe but I find most people can understand this if they look at the STAR plates which have the stacks on them. The STAR plates for both Heathrow and Gatwick are available on line from the AIS site. If you google AIS EGLL and AIS EGKK you'll find them quite easily. You need to look at both because you'll see an obvious difference in the way the stacks are defined.

The iFACTS look ahead time is a function of a number of factors. First the amount of processing the system has to do depends on it so the longer you set it the more powerful your processor has to be. If you set it too short you lose some of the benefit to the controller but beyond a certain point there's no further benefit because you probably don't care about whats going to happen sometime after it leaves your airspace and the further you look ahead the less certainty there is. On our small island it is quite possible that in half an hour an aircraft will be interacting with aircraft which are currently on the ground and with the tolerance we currently have on slot times no system can predict those interactions with any certainty.

Hi

I previously failed at stage 3. It says that i must wait a year from my inital tests before I can apply again. Just wondering if anyone knows how strict Nats are with this? It's been 10 months since my initial tests.

hey lowlevel
 

what is involved in the stage 2 tests?

Dan - don't mean to be rude but try and do what everyone else here does and read the thread before you ask questions.

forgive me, i haven't read all 270 pages of the thread, the only information i saw on stage 2 was old info at the beginning of the thread. i have not seen anything stating what is involved in stage 2 in recent pages. i asked level to respond , not you, so unless you have something helpful to say, such as where i can find the information i require on the thread, then dont say anything.

dan
 

student88 is way more PPRuNer than you, so maybe you should accept his advices... So chill mate, chill. Try to search for feast test.

that may be the case, but why bother posting to say he wont help? thought thats what this was for? he could have easily directed me to the info i required if he is so well informed.

http://atcocareers.co.uk/pdf/Hints-a...Three-Days.pdf

It would help if you trawled through the 270 pages on offer here, but in any case, there's a link that I hope is of some help. I'd like to think we could welcome people instead of fobbing them off :ok:

Hi Dan,

Check out this post: http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/265...ml#post5228059

Should answer your questions :)


Dr. Pie,

I believe you have to wait 12 months between the dates of your initial applications - so if you first sent in your previous application before Jan 30th last year then you can now apply again. I don't know how efficient NATS are at picking these things up, but seeing as you are trying to apply for a job with them I'd suggest dishonesty is not a very good idea so I'd recommend waiting until you're sure the 12 months is up rather than trying to sneak around it.

Maybe I was a little rude so I apologise. I had a hangover. Never the less, try and read the whole thread, I'll help you greatly with the application process. You could always try the search function if it's something quite specific.

Good luck and welcome to the forums.

S88 :ok:

thanks pat, cpt, spot on



ok student, that's fair enough :ok:

I'm not sure I'd advise people to read the whole thread... it's darn long and a lot of the older posts are now well out of date.

For guys like Dan who are keen I'd probably recommend reading the last 50 pages or so though - it might take an evening or two but you'll find it very educational :)

I know its a huge thread and can be a little daunting, but for those of us who have been posting on here for a while now it does start to wear when you answer the same question over and over again. I can almost garuantee that about 98% of the questions someone just starting out here will have have been answered on this forum at least once within the last 3 or 4 months. I can also promise that if you learn to use the "search" function you will find the answers to those questions a lot faster than we are able to answer them.

Perhaps we could start a condensed NATS interview thread with only the most up to date and comprehensive posts from this thread, or a "NATS interview FAQ" thread or something like that? That way those who are new would be able to find the answers to their questions much more easily without people having to get whiny at them or bite their faces off.

That's a great idea Pat. You're right, a lot of this is way past it's use by date. Maybe create 4 posts in the thread. The first relating to S1, then S2 and then S3 and maybe a misc post. That way all the up to date information will remain at the first 4 posts and any other info people want added can be added to the top 4 posts?

S88

I'll have a word with the admins ;)

Stage 3
 

stage 1 on 25th jan
 

has anyone heard back from them yet? - i know it is usually 15 days but on the day she said they were going to try and get the results to us by wednesday last week?!

Re: Stage 3
 

There are no technical questions at stage 3 now. The interview is now just with HR and is a structured (competency based) interview. The questions will all be based around the competencies listed on the stage 3 prep document found on the NATS ATCO careers website:

http://atcocareers.co.uk/pdf/Hints-a...-Day-Three.pdf

You'll be asked two questions aiming to help you demonstrate each competency. For each question you will be expected to give a specific example of a scenario you have been in that has tested that competency in a certain way, and then they will grill you further on that example by asking you about why you did what you did, why you chose a certain course of action etc.

Good luck :)

slbzx6,

Wouldn't worry - I was there 25/01 as well, also remember them saying they would get results out by the end of the week!

However, to be fair, they did have about 30 candidates just for the 1230, as well as other Stages that week so guess they are pretty busy with sorting through it all.

May have to wait the full 15 days, and its only been 5 as I think they state "working days"

Fingers crossed as ever! :-)

CaptJayJay,

Thats about double the amount compared to the morning session although i think there were a few no-shows.

We'll just have to wait and fingers crossed as you said! 15 days is going to drag though!

Cheers
Sophie

Thanks!
 

Hi guys,

I was at Stage 3 on the 29th Jan and I have just found out i passed :)

Fingers crossed for the other guys who were with me, some good guys in there who deserved to pass. I know a couple didn't make it but for anyone who has failed Stage 3 recently for the first time I'd 100% recommend them try again and not to give up. I failed over a year ago but the extra year you get to build up experience really does make the difference.

Thanks to everyone that posts especially Pat42.

Good luck to everyone.

P.S Thanks to Kev who helped cure the nerves while i waited to get interviewed and maybe see you around Feltham! :ok:

Scrot,

A big congratulations. I can only imagine how good it feels!

All the best.

Well done mate, congrats :)

NATS Stage 1 CHANGED!!!!?????????????
 

Hi everyone… I wonder if you lot can answer a little question of mine….

Just under two years ago… I applied for NATS and I made it to Stage 3 and got turned down for having too much interest in the RAF and was asked to come back in a year if NATS was the path I wished to follow.

Sooooo several years later… I started up my application again. Got the same emails with the same preparation material… except for a few bits of information having been changed on the revision booklet due to the new restructuring Air Space.

So just like before… got my head stuck in and practiced for the following tests:

· Basic Checking
· Diagramming
· Spatial Reasoning
· Aviation Info Test

Obviously you can’t study for the personality test… but that was a test that would be given.

So… I travel down to Fareham after some hardcore studying… Firstly we were all squeezed into a spare room with a member of HR who says “sorry if you hear typing but I have work to do during your tests” :hmm: secondly… the tests were different!!! :eek:

· Diagramming
· Spatial Reasoning
· “Aviation Test” which had about 6 questions about the booklet you had been given to “study carefully” and the remaining questions were to do with Maths.
· Maths test

I know this sounds stupid but…. I haven’t had to do any sort of equations since I left education about 4-5 years ago and only ever did financial figures so to me… the heads up on the change of tests would have been really good! :ugh:!! But no… all the info they get your studying is absolutely pointless!!! It would have been best to do maths and scrape out with the 70% mark on the Aviation test and just hope you did well on the other questions relating to the booklet!

Then after the tests we were quickly shooed out of the building…. No presentation… nowt. :*

I found that the old approach that SHL took for conducting the tests were a lot more professional as NATS had supplied old practice material which DID NOT correspond with the tests on the actual day. I know there is cut backs all over but… come on! The standards should not slip especially not for the recruitment processes as first impression ALWAYS shape the perception people have and if you get a bad approach like that from round one… you may be left thinking that… is it like this ALLLLL the way through???? :sad:

So basically one is left feeling that… she may not actually make it through to the second stage this time round never mind the third :{ and I am left feeling extremely cheated. Obviously I have only 1 more shot at this baby and Lets face it... how can I prepare myself when these things are not brought to our attention!!!

Has this happened to anyone else?????? If you have just sat the tests recently but it was your first time… did you feel that the supplied practice material lacked relevance to the tests on the day?

Hi Watching the Skies,

Sounds like they must have very recently changed the structure of stage one, particularly this "aviation test", because that's the first I've heard about it on these forums. The basic checking hasn't been a part of stage 1 for a while now, it was replaced with the maths test quite some time ago, but otherwise the latest I'd heard is that the tests were all as you were expecting.

Sorry to hear that you feel you weren't treated very well. My experience over the past few months going through the selection process is that NATS have been nothing but professional throughout.

Hi Pat42,

Everything I was given this time around was identical to that of last time (like I said minus the new airways structures etc) but the last test I did on NATS was morely based on... NATS (mind that was when they were still using the slogan... "to become world leader in Air Traffic Management") and this information provided (mock tests and revision paper) were pretty much nothing to do with the tests they do now. It seems like they have forgotten to update it as much as they should.

Mind it hasn't particulary put me off going for it but when you only get three chances with the company and its your dreams on a knife edge... its a bit of a kick in thee old crown jewels lets put it.

Hmmmm.... well heres hoping the next time round they don't do it so differently next time without a slight thumbs up on the different tests!

Well all the best for your next stage. Out of curiousity where have you gotten to? Are they still doing the computer test on Stage 2 or has that changed also?

Thanks

The Aviation paper was very simple, all the questions were drawn from the information supplied in the Stage 1 preparation booklet. In addition, there were a couple of basic questions about the principle of flight (if you don't know the answer to these, perhaps you don't really have an interest in ATC anyway).

Yes, the aviation paper was also made up of Maths. But calculating the distance travelled in 10 minutes for a 747 cruising at 500mph is hardly A-level maths, especially when you get a choice of 4 answers.

You certainly don't need knowledge of equations (I still don't know how to transpose formula and still worked out every question without a struggle).

The preparation booklet certainly wasn't useless and the maths not difficult - that's coming from someone with a lowly B grade at GCSE!

Does anyone know if there is a dress code for the CAA ATCO Medical?
thanks

Nope. No dress code. Go in whatever you feel comfortable in. You'll only be taking it all off anyways :ok:

Wow, my eyes are about to pop out...

I should be reading the EUROCONTROL thread, as I'm about to do the FEAST 1 stage here in Serbia, and from the looks of it, apart from the infamous CUBES, everything is different from the NATS FEAST. But I just had to "read" you guys first, and I must say that I'm impressed by the people posting here and the overall atmosphere. I've read the entire thread and should I say, my imagination is like I've met some of you guys...like Nokio, Jimmy780, Paperclip, Whitelighter, Pat42, local "denis the menace" Zooker...and of course, last, but not least- our big brother GONZO.:)

It's been a great ride, lots of info, but I do have some questions:

1. I can't open this Jimmy780's ATC thingy, as I would like to practice some more. Dunno if I should download that client, or smth else, but if some of you guys could just reupload it on rapidshare or megaUp, I would be grateful.
2. Also, if anyone knows anything similar to Psychometric Testing | Aptitude Tests | Free Aptitude Test | Psychometric Test | Abstract Reasoning, please PM me. Any other websites, practice places...

3. Any "personal" trics and tips about the cubes, please PM.

All in all, thanks for some great advices and keep up the good work & good luck to all new aplicants.

Regards from Serbia.:ok: