Fair enough then, that might be an idea to get the bus round quicker!!

I'm surprised there is no staff channel through security.In HK we had a similar trek to work through the terminal,but the process was vastly quicker as we very seldom had a wait at security.They used to move pax out of the way to let us through.(Royality eh:ok: ) We also had to pass through immigration to leave work.No problems.
There was never any gripes about the trip through the terminal.Plenty about where they put the airport though.I think it's the LL creme have never had to pass through airport security before to get to work,and they resent it.
Just wait they'll be moaning that it sways in the wind,making them sick.Also in low cloud cover the VCR is IMC,but the airport is OK.No doubt there will be another £150K found to pamper them again.:p

I understand, correct me if I am wrong please, that the old tower was not airside, so now that it is you guys should be issued security IDs to work and go airside.
This in turn would allow you through security in the terminal through the staff route? I assume they have one at T3?

BDiONU

You make some very good points, it isn't all doom and gloom, I for one am looking forward to the move. The are, or have been, problems with communication, so the operational staff have had some worries only recently appeased re food and catering, gonzo is coorect though in that there is no plumbed drinking water, although I believe management are going to provide us with bottled water. It had better be Perrier or I'm out the door;) And not of that fizzy rubbish.



2miles600feet
A bit of an unfair criticism of Gonzo, if your just trying to bait him then fair enough:E , but he's a good guy and a valuable contributor to these boards, you can't knock him for listing the negatives since that's pretty much the crux of this thread!



747-436

Most controllers have free ranging driving permits, however it seems our bus drivers don't at the moment, I'm sure this can be sorted in the short term hopefully.



725308
Everything you say here is correct, however if you've ever seen the staff route at T3 it can take up to 20 minutes at shift change over times, equally other times it can take less than 5.

There are staff security points in all the terminals but these are still busy and sometimes shut as BAA are short of staff and staff get pulled to cover the passenger terminals. Certainly happens down Terminal 4 way.

Years ago in 2000 when I worked at Terminal 3 for a year there was a security post tucked away in the departures baggage processing area. Could be airside in less than 2 minutes.

Don't think you could do that now days though!!

Are we suggesting buffet lunches as a matter of course here?!! At occasional meetings maybe, but as a regular thing? I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick there;)

Still, a good rumour for Heathrow bashers to add to their ammunition!

The times mentioned for transitting security ARE using the designated staff routes. Its not only ATC who start work at 7am!

I am astounded that you wasted time typing this drivel. I am thoroughly bored of your continued baiting of the LL controllers. I will re-iterate something that has already been posted but you clearly appear to have missed - the LL controllers are getting NOTHING for moving. Not a bean. What they have been offered is time for working more hours in their WP. And you may well perceive them as being pampered but most large companies look after employees that they value. It is something known as "good business".

Secondly, when the tower is in cloud this is a situation known as ICAO Vis 2. There are procedures for this - you might like to read them.

Thirdly, the word is ROYALTY.

P7

That is why Throw a Dyce and the likes of me feel aggrieved. We at the 'regional' units are obviously not 'valued' by this company. Good to see you Heathrow boys obviously agree with this policy as you have just stated above! Arrogant?

I really don't know why I bother, but anyway....

If your WP meant that you'd be working more than the max number of hours per week in the model, then you would also get days given back to you to bring the average hours worked under that maximum. If you don't understand what I just said, ask your union reps.

Well :mad:k my 100K a year salary! I'm going to be a 157K a year bus driver :E

GT3, or maybe they're spending 15k on the driver, and 142k on the bus? Only the best for us M+S organic Creme boys! :}

Surprise, surprise. Another comment accusing LL of being arrogant. :hmm:

I pointed out that what is happening is NOT pampering but good business sense (as a means of putting down yet another sniping comment at LL) and then get accused of arrogance. What a marvellously intuitive mind you have. I neither agreed or disagreed with the policy, that is something that you kindly decided for me.

i'm a fully paid up and active member of our union and i wholeheartedly want to get the best deal for ALL of the NATS ATCOs not just LL. So if you want to have a proper conversation about this issue, get that chip of your shoulder and stop putting words into my mouth.

P7

Point Seven

I was replying to your point that this company looks after the people that they value, your quote. If they then always seem to give the Band 5 guys the better deal, then it does not take a genius to work out that everyone else is not valued. That then generates resentment or in your words 'a chip on the shoulder'.

"And you may well perceive them as being pampered but most large companies look after employees that they value."

We are arguing here about Heathrow. If you use this statement it is insinuating that NATS values Heathrow (obvious) and looks after them but what about the rest of us? Maybe it's just my 'marvellously intuitive mind' but that's why we feel resentful and want an even playing field.

We have moved tower, are renegotiating WP but do not seem to get the same backing off the union as others in the 'limelight'.

Hope that is less offensive, wouldn't want to upset you :zzz:

Re: "backing of the union"

It was a local negotiation until NSL took it upon themselves to get involved. It then became a national issue. Something that the local reps and I suspect local management did not think would happen.

It did, NSL management have tabled the offer on WP. Should we reject it on the basis an ATCO at EDI and another at Aberdeen* are complaining on PPRune about our pampered ways?





*mereley using the last few posts as examples here.

[QUOTE=Point Seven;2998531]i'm a fully paid up and active member of our union and i wholeheartedly want to get the best deal for ALL of the NATS ATCOs not just LL. So if you want to have a proper conversation about this issue, get that chip of your shoulder and stop putting words into my mouth.
P7,
You are supposed to start a sentence with a capital,and use capitals for I.:ouch:
Well it does look like The Creme de la Creme as turned a wee bit sour.:hmm: Sorry about my typo.Got to really dot the i and cross the t.Not sorry about the drivel though.Interesting how a lot of what is being said is put to one side as it might have some truth to it.Anyway £157k p.a. could pay for a lot of lower Band Atcos to get some reward for the work they actually do.That's before LL get compensation for having to walk a bit further.Pour souls.

So this 157k is that confirmed? Or is it PPrune rumour?

[QUOTE=throw a dyce;2998777.Anyway £157k p.a. could pay for a lot of lower Band Atcos to get some reward for the work they actually do.That's before LL get compensation for having to walk a bit further.Pour souls.[/QUOTE]

And while we're at it we could also get rid of the cars that gatwick controllers use to get to their tower and make them walk a bit further eh?!? Just to "give a lower band atco some reward"?!? And the same applies to any other unit that has some form of transport to take them to their tower eh?!? What a load of nonsense!!!:mad: :ouch:

FB:ok:

/ rant on But you're NOT working them are you? Just walking them! Otherwise people who have to move office from one end of Swanwick to the other, would have to renegotiate their WP to either get more money or give it back. Just get real and if you don't like it resign as I think most other units really don't want to hear it as we're all trying to sort out our own problems. I think that you need to work in the real world such as non NATS to realise how lucky we are. /rant off

:ok:

The thing that gets me :mad: with this is the fact that our colleagues at LL seem to think that the fact it MAY take an extra 20 minutes to get to work deserves some sort of recompense either in the form of a cash payment or TOIL (which will have to be bought back by NATS since there will no doubt not be enough available leave to take the TOIL)
Whichever way you look at it, it is NATS pampering the babies at LL who have thrown teddy out of the cot because they have to get out of bed a bit earlier.

Welcome to the world of the regional airports who have to deal with the same old :mad: handed down by management on a daily basis and who also moan and groan but nothing gets done because "we don't have the money"

As I understand it AAVA's are rostered at LL just in case someone is sick (I stand to be corrected on that point). Us poor buggers at the regionals are being told to cut back on AAVA's and close positions because the budget won't allow for it.

We might not move the big jets but we move a hell of a lot of little things mixed in with the big jets, do we moan and groan NO we do the job we are paid to do and get out of bed when we need to to get to work.

Point 7 you were the baby on the course, you and you're colleagues are acting like babies now, time to grow up := :=

terrain safe,

We will be working them. The increased shift times are rostered shift times. I can not make this any more clear! Just picking one aspect of the new WP, there will be three ATCOs working 1430-2300 in the NVCR, rather than one presently. There is also a 1330-2200 shift, which is one hour longer, and a 1030-1900, again an hour longer. This does not include travel time. I say again, rostered working shifts have increased in length. Rostered working shifts means the length of time between the time I have to be plugged in and the time at which I unplug and go home. Hence giving us TOIL to get the average hours per week under the maximum. :ugh:

Radar 707, AAVAs are not rostered because someone 'might' go sick. You are now corrected.

Terrain Safe - No the new WP proposal is that we work those hours, they are not "travel time" or anything like that. NSL will NOT pay for travel time.

Radar 707 - Our AAVAs are NOT rostered. Whoever told you that is speaking crap.

Oh and Gonzo, on the correction theme ;) its not TOIL but annual leave that is being given to reduce the hours below 33.125.

Yes, sorry GT3. Well spotted. Deliberate error. :O

No I wasn't, I merely look younger than I actually am.

But it is nice to see that ONCE AGAIN, those poor hard done to souls up North feel the need to resort to name calling and chiding the NATS staff who are trying to get some more for themselves.

I commend you.

P7

This is just a question, and nothing is implied by it!

33.125 hours is mentioned a few posts above. Is this the maximum hours per week in your WP?

I think it is the target hours. I am not at all au fait with how a WP works, so I leave that to those who really do know about it.

I feel I have to join this spat between north and south as I've been fuming about all the rubbish spoken about Heathrow by those who do not have a clue what they are talking about. When was the last time your unit worked 80-85 movements per hour from 0700 until 2300 without a break, without being able to bandbox any positions, and the staff had almost forgotten what early go's looked like as they were still going hell for leather when the night shift came on.

Please do not compare Heathrow to ANY other airport until you have come and seen what we do. Yes, you all work hard, doing radar etc, but can you say honestly that you do not get a break on the R/T for 1 minute. We do not. We do not complain about it either. We love Heathrow, that is why we work there. Who in their right mind would seek high house prices, congestion on the M25, exorbitant beer prices, and a 20 minute walk to work and be pleased to do it. Yes, you've guessed it, those Band 5 nutters who think they are better than you, who go to all those courses and rub your noses in it, and all those prima donnas who have now retired. If you think that Heathrow still thinks that way, you need to come and see that our average age is now around 30 and that we do not fit your outdated, and frankly, outrageous view of a Unit that shifts a hell of a lot of traffic with a dwindling number of people. If we negotiate something that we feel strongly enough about, do not have a go at us. If we win or lose, that is our problem. We realise that you got a bad deal. Do you want me to set up a standing order to you because I feel sorry for you? Having to leave work earlier to reach the new VCR does have an effect on my family and my way of life. I do have to give up my own time to now arrive at work on time. I will continue to work at Heathrow. I will continue to enjoy it, and I will be glad to show you round should you wish to come and smell the coffee before you pour it down the drain!

Sorry, did not mean the bit about the standing order. I'm just a bit fed up with the comparison debate. You choose to live there, I choose to live here. It costs me a lot to live here...

Yawn

"Divide and conquer" and "Horses for courses" springs to mind.

100% (g)nats, maybe time to move it to their forum?

Pickled Pheasant, I'm glad you enjoy LL and I have the greatest respect for what you guys are doing there, but that's a two way street and those at LL have to show the same respect for what other ATCOs do.
Your first paragraph shows up the problems between units - 80-85 movements per hour is not relevant, it's the number of movements per ATCO and the task complexity which is important. A single ATCO handling 20 - 25 movements an hour in a complex situation is working every bit as hard as LL are. And unless SRATCOH is taking a spanking, no individual works 0800-2300 without a break, so that doesn't really come into it.
It's time we ALL appreciated what others do, and I don't think you're doing that. Maybe you should reverse your offer and go to see some other units as well. What I infer from this thread generally is NOT that people don't appreciate how hard others work, it's that most don't know how hard others work.
At my unit, I don't get more than a 1 minute break on the RT either, but hey, that's the job - I love it too, I chose it and I wouldn't do anything else. I also know that some at "quieter" units have their moments as well. I can still admire the professionalism they display, and it seems to me that's what it should be about!
:ok:

Thankyou Vespasia for talking some sense.

I can think of another unit in the south east that also has to put up with high house prices, high traffic loading (long after LL ATCO's have finished talking to aircraft at night); who have the skill to intergrate and push the traffic enabling them to claim the airport as the worlds busiest single runway, high cost of living, M25 and M23 to cope with and who also have to pass through security to get airside which can take 20 minutes. Oh they also have EFPS. I don't hear them whingeing.

Pickled Peasant - Get your head out of the sand open your eyes, look around and you will see that you are not the only air traffic unit around. Speak to anybody from London City, they will tell you that they too are very busy, having recently set a new daily record. How much more do they get paid for working in a 'high cost of living area?' Not as much as you.

Oh how to win friends and influence people.

Good morning all,

As you all say, other airports are available, they work very hard and believe it or not, we do notice. What I was trying to get over is that we are fed up of being sniped at by people who do not know what Heathrow is like now. Vespasia is right in that we do not realise everything that others do, but I do not remember pulling anyone else's Unit apart from afar in my post. no delay, you are right about City, great job. If I could get them more pay do you think I would'nt?

Guys and Gals?

Please, everyone take a deep breath.

Let's try not to start comparing each others c:mad: k sizes here.

I've visited a lot of NATS units and at everyone of them I've been trully impressed at what my colleagues do. This isn't about your unit is busier or more complex than mine.....

Pickled Pheasant has come on here not to rattle cages, but to point out that Heathrow is a stupidly busy and complex unit, yet he/she loves the job with all the crap that's thrown in with it, I'm guessing that at whatever unit in NATS your at, we can all find common ground here, certainly at the units I've visited north and south of the border the above statement rings true. From reading this thread, it does seem that so many of you still subscribe to the belief that all Heathrow controllers are w:mad: ers, yet how many of you have visited the unit and really seen what a pleasant place to work it is these days?

nodelay
I think KK does an astounding job with a single runway, and I'm yet to find an LL colleague who thinks otherwise, when mixed mode comes in , we may need to learn a few things or 10 from KK. Shall we get a room?;)

However, You simply cannot make a like for like comparison with our operation and yours re EFPS builds, this is unfair. Our EFPS is a more complex build than yours because of T4 runway crossing and the numerous GMC positions, and you need to factor in the fact that we're aren't sitting next to each other anymore for non-verbal co-ordination.

vespasia

Good post fella :ok:

What PP is getting at is the fact that the traffic is constantly at this rate between these hours of the day.


Regarding the offer on the table from NSL.
We are getting not a penny in travel time to the new tower, the money is purely for working longer shift times in the NVCR. So as much as some of you would like to use this to bait us further or throw your toys out of the pram, we're getting this money for providing an extended service nothing else!

Radar707 your coment about AAVA's just shows the misinformation and lack of appreciation around the country about LL. How many others out there are standing to be corrected about stuff they think they know about LL?


Everyone.
If you don't think we should get anything for travel time to the new tower, then that's fine, you've made your point we've made ours! If it's because you didn't get it in the past or you think it's part and parcel of the job then fine, but if your just being arsey because you got the raw end of the pay deal and you think we are gold plated prima donnas, then spare a thought for the ATSA's, TELS, and all the non-op support staff who are getting nothing also! When we were negotiating locally it was a case of anything we got they got too.
But I guess that north of the border you already knew that anyway?


Finally,
If the band 1,2 and 3 units are going to stubbornly attack us at every chance they get about our T and Ps compared to theirs reagrdless of the issue on the table, I hope you will reconsider your ways when the pensions issue comes round, as for once, it would be nice, no how about fu:mad: ing critical that we stuck together and actually acted like profesionals.

See ya around

YS:ok:

Carp on
 

Somebody beat me to it but I'll have my twopenneth worth - Why have you all spiralled in to a self destructive bitching debate.

Where's the debate?

Move this into the NATS forum and stop this feeding frenzy :ugh:

Or perhaps those not interested could just refrain from clicking on the thread?

Spot on TRT, this is an NATS issue and ought to be moved to the NATS forum, or even better : END IT NOW as our non-EGLL brethren have made up their minds about EGLL based on misconceptions and pre-judgement - fair enough as they probably have no reason to want to come to EGLL to see what really goes on.

And why share the details of our WP offer with these guys. It's on a need to know basis and they just don't need to know

But seriously, gt3, gonzo and pals, lets just leave it now and get on with our 'gold-plated' lives, drinking bollinger on our yachts. Cheers :ok:

I drink Cristal manily Satan ;)

From a non-NATS perspective, I find this discusson mildly amusing. Some impartial thoughts:

In my dealings with NATS (albeit NERL as opposed to NSL) I have found the safety management regime to be all encompassing. Personally, I would be very suprised (worried?) if NATS hadn't safety managed the whole EFPS thing to death.

As far as extra time getting to work, welcome to the real world. Ever the optimist, maybe the extra walk will assist with individuals' health.;)

Already said by others, is this discussion not better placed on a closed forum?

Further to walk = less distancre to drive = less petrol consumed = reduction in salary.
QED

As already stated, move it to your private forum; Leave it here, or even better, move it to JB where the real :hmm: experts can rip into it