Are you guys real? I wish I lived in your world. Having said that post #9 struck a chord. The fact that the software SHOULD have been tested to the n'th degree is irrelevant. I guarantee you'll find snags on day one.

I have loads of mates from other units and I'm used to the "all Heathrow controllers are up there own ar$e To$$ers" banter, but I'm amazed by the lack of anti-heathrow feeling on here:ugh:
Most of you that make these comments probably haven't visited the tower ever! A lot of the negative feeling stems from years ago when Heathrow was very much a place where if your face didn't fit and got a deserved crappy reputation within the company, these days it's actually not at all a bad place to work with real grounded people, our demographic has changed so much in the last 6-7 years I've been here. So before one of you tries to go for a cheeky one liner, knocking the guys and gals here, that you may think is funny, perhaps you should think about exactly what do you know about heathrow and what you don't;) Rant over.


This arguement about the move, isn't a Band5 vs the rest of the company arguement, don't be so shallow. Whenever Heathrow has a concern and we ask for your support, are we meant to apologise in advance first, beacause our (Thats yours and mine) union, got Heathrow a good pay deal compared to the Band 1 and 2 units. Would Swanwick, TC and the college also have to come to you cap in hand, head bowed to get any support?:rolleyes:
This is an issue about the company screwing us over in the most short sighted manner, if they win this one who's next?


Consider the numbers, we're looking at a minimum 10 minutes extra to a max 30 minutes, so 20 minutes - 1 hour extra per day for each shift (an average of 40 minutes). How is this fair that the company can expect me just to swallow this. I choose to live close to work albeit in a much smaller property than some of my colleagues who live in excess of 1 hour from work in much larger properties, these are lifestyle choices. As a mobile grade I have no problems with having to move or change my lifestyle patterns, it's what I signed up to, but where is the assisted move or other support the company promised when I signed the mobile grade form? Admittedly my unit isn't changing, yet my place of wok is, by a considerable amount of time.


Going back to band 5 vs other units, we were very much told that our pay rises weren't about us being special and that we deserved them;) it was about staff retention and recruitment!!! Heathrow can't grow into a six terminal airport with 3 runways if we can't keep the staff we've got and attract good people from other units.
Furthermore if NATS gets us to move and in no way recompenses us for this extra time on each shift, there's even less chance someone from a lower banded unit, or even similar banded for arguements sake, is going to consider throwing their hat in the ring at LL.


This isn't about what's happened in the past, mistakes were made, it's about learning from the past and supporting your colleagues for the future, if we don't then it'll be the TC boys and gals that get shafted next! And if the band 1-4 units feel so strongly about this or just don't want to offer their suport because we got a better pay deal last time, you lot are also mobile grades so why not apply to join heathrow?
Or is it a lifestyle change you don't fancy but are quite happy to see your colleagues down south get dumped with?

Yellow Snow


"This arguement about the move, isn't a Band 5 vs the rest of the company arguement, don't be so shallow. Whenever Heathrow has a concern and we ask for your support, are we meant to apologise in advance first, beacause our (Thats yours and mine) union, got Heathrow a good pay deal compared to the Band 1 and 2 units. Would Swanwick, TC and the college also have to come to you cap in hand, head bowed to get any support?
This is an issue about the company screwing us over in the most short sighted manner, if they win this one who's next?"

Shallow, What a cheek! We asked for your support over the banding to vote NO as we were getting a crappy deal. What happened?

As for the company screwing you over and who is next? We have been thoroughly screwed and you could not give a toss so why should we?


I don't think the majority of the Band 5 guys quite realise how bitter the rest of us felt and still feel. This workforce will never stick together as management offer the guys at the top with the bigger voting power the bigger slice of the cake and no-one else can do anything about it. That's a democracy for you. Remember your morals at the next pay negotiations brother!

As for the predictable move to Heathrow crap. A lot of us have family issues that make that extremely awkward. Also most places, you as well I presume, are short of personnel and could not release anyway.

When management and the Union treat us all the same then we will all stick together but it never happens.

After all of my rant I still say I have the upmost sympathy with the EFPS. We have had the CSD, RIMCAS, Tower move, new phraesology not in Mats1 etc to get used to and it has been a complete shambles. I hope your move, apart from the monetary issue, goes smoothly.

By the way, how is Brentford?

Hootin
So by that logic, the entire union votes a majority yes, but this is Heathrows fault!
Do you have the retention and recruitment problems LL has?
To say we didn't give a toss is a bit wide of the mark mate.
Is your bitterness because we're getting more toasters and microwaves in the new tower?:) ;)
Brentford is sunny today and looks forward to a visit from yourself and good lady in the new year!

Wowsers, I think management's plan to divide and conquer is working. Why can't we just all get along - sod the whole "you're band this I'm band that and so makes you lot a bunch of to$$ers and me the victim".

Most non LL people I know would hate to come to LL because they don't think the extra money warrants the hassle of living in the south/high workload/quality of life etc. But if you want to sail the band 5 seas, join us, (or LACC, TC or the college) and see if the grass is really greener

"So by that logic, the entire union votes a majority yes, but this is Heathrows fault"

Not what I am saying, but no doubt you voted yes and therefore have a part in it!

"Wowsers, I think management's plan to divide and conquer is working. Why can't we just all get along - sod the whole "you're band this I'm band that and so makes you lot a bunch of to$$ers and me the victim".

Where have you been? It worked when the banding issue was voted in and we have been split ever since. Now everyone below Band 5 is squabling over we should have what they have and we work harder than them etc. Scacc want West Drayton pay, Macc would want that if Scacc got it etc. Don't patronize me with the high moral ground. It's ok when you are sitting at the top of the tree

I believe even Southampton put it to conference to re-look at the banding equation but I don't know where they think they should go.

Quite right Hootin,
So what are ''The Creme'' looking for? 1hr extra pay,or a set of climbing boots every 6 months? At what time limit does this kick in?
It's just that people at ''The Scum'' units feel that they have already had their pay cut to fund Band 5 units.
In the real world,our unit can have for example double digit traffic growth,450 movements a day with only 2 VCR controllers,4 runways,4 terminals,the requirement to validate Radar as well.We also have a big staff recruitment and retention problem.Band 2.Do we see the stampede of LL controllers offering support to improve our terms?:hmm: Not really.
Hey next time a foot of snow lands on my drive,I'll be bleating about a snowplough allowance cos it took me 40 mins longer to get to work.
Get walking boys and girls.Keep you fit.;)

Hootin,
Hypothetically, If Edi tower had gotten a huge payrise relevant to other units are you telling me you would've voted no? Horse's Ar$e you would've;)
It seems that because the union let you down, then the fault lies at the door of any band 5 unit or controller (presumably because of the large voting block), so whatever gripe they have now or in the future they can go swivel as far as your concerned??? I'm not trying to wind you up just looking for clarafication.
Can you better elaborate or clarify this also as it could be taken the wrong way.
It's not an exclusive party anyone can apply and get on the lift to tree heaven
The above in relation to moving to a band 5 unit, but as a mobile grade you'd have no choice if the company said "We think you've got a lot of potential, you've got 3 months and then you're being transferred to Heathrow/TC/Swanwick"
And finally, Hold at Satan
There's even less chance of our bretheren coming to see if the grass is greener at the top of the tree, if NSL management cannot come up with a long term solution to the extra duty time the new tower forces on us!

Throw a dyce
No you don't, because it's only on forums like these or over a beer that we find out what your real problems and gripes are. But your comment once again proves my point that your anger is with the band 5 units not the union, who should be doing a better job to let us know what's going on at the units around the country, we shouldn't have to rely on PPrune.

That's just it, we've campaigned for a travellator to be installed linking us direct from the car park, underground to the new tower, with associated bar and snacks on route and a couple of fluffers, so that we all arrive relaxed and ready to work.
Would you believe management rejected it out of hand, and there's me thinking band 5 were special, I might apply to join your unit, if the snow is greener;)

Yellow Snow

"Hypothetically, If Edi tower had gotten a huge payrise relevant to other units are you telling me you would've voted no? "

It wasn't so a mute point. You all voted yes and split eveyone. Look at the Prospect annual report and conference agenda. Most units are bitching about Banding and see themselves as moving up. Management with the aid of the Union succeeded in splitting us, caused great resentment and I can't see a way back.

"It seems that because the union let you down, then the fault lies at the door of any band 5 unit or controller (presumably because of the large voting block), so whatever gripe they have now or in the future they can go swivel as far as your concerned??? "

Yes. What do you expect me to say. You voted yourselves a huge pay rise and didn't look back at us. So if you have problems can you really blame me for showing no support.

You will find that NEARLY every time someone comes on here saying "isn't it time we forgot the banding squabbling" it usually comes from someone sitting at a Band 5 unit. I'm all right Jack!!!

The only issue we can stay together on is hopefully pensions. However if something crafty is brought in to offer certain units (you can guess which ones they would be) a better deal the same thing will happen again. I'm sure this would not be possible but you never know.

Cheers mate. I'm off to do a bit of radar now as part of my second validation. That's the big screen with strange lines and writing on it!!! :p

Sorry guys, been away for the last 24hrs. :}

Just have to clairfy something, Hootin'.......

I said compensation. I belive the original request from Prospoect was TOIL. I am thinking of adequate compensation, whichever form it comes in.

I know,you could get a company rickshaw.Get the trainees or Band 1&2 controllers down for some TOIL,and pull you guys along to your new golf tee.Send them out on cha runs to keep their masters happy.:E

That wouldn't work....you NEVER ever turn your back on royalty:hmm:

Sorry if I'm missing the point, but I just don't get why you're looking for some sort of compensation because your place of work has moved by 10 minutes?!:hmm: You're a mobile grade aren't you? The company is mobilising you airside.
It's not like you're being moved the 200 or so miles that the MACC guys are being moved. :sad:

It's more like 30 minutes inbound to work, and 20 minutes outbound. If your management arbitrarily decided to increase your shift lenghts by those times, would you all just accept, or negotiate compensation? If they posted you to PF from PH, would you not anticipate a relocation package?:confused:

5 bands are too many; there should be 3 at the most, and the all too huge differentials between 1 and 3 should be reduced, otherwise no-one will want to go to the lowest band units, hence lack of experienced people to be transferred to higher banded units when needed.

You don't need the any compensation GONZO!!!
You just need to live closer!!!

And I'd expect a relocation package for that, of course. :ugh:

Well my journey time will increase by 20mins when relocation to Swanwick happens and i can't move:eek: :eek:

So I assume that you are also against all your colleagues at TC, who are eligible, receiving relocation. Correct?

Of course !!They are paid far too much and should be able to do it out of the goodness of their hearts:O :O

Gonzo, I would say that relocation to a different ATC Unit and your issue are two different subjects.

As I understand it, you are being made to travel longer within the airport to get to work.

OK, this is not a great situation but I do not believe that you should be compensated. You are not, after all, on shift during this extra time. This is just that your working environment has changed. You either accept it, as controllers accept change regularly, or find that the situation is unacceptable for you and look for another post. If enough EGLL TWR Controllers expressed their wished to leave, then you might have something happen.

I would push your management to provide you with the time that they require within the airport to get to work - such that if the airport were not transporting you to your place of work within the prescribed time, then it is not your fault! This however could be problematic for logistic reasons.

I assume that you have already approached your direct managers and requested some assistance with this matter, if not, then try that. (Free coffee machine maybe??)

If the union believe you have a case to argue, then so be it, but I fully understand all the other controllers having a problem with you requesting more money for this.

A small example - the staff carpark that was used, is to be built on with an airport building - another staff carpark is allocated but involves longer walking distance to work - should all airport employees be compensated for this?

Not as extreme an example as yours but what do you think?

Ok once and for all it is not a request for extra money :ugh: . It was an option that local management looked into but the local Prospect committee wanted "compensation" in the form of TIME.

Time is money :O :O

Why not? What is it to me? Some might feel they should, some might not. I certainly wouldn't go around decrying those that ask for something in return.

All your going to manage to get is a clocking on/off system,like thousand of workers.Whats the bet that Nats would put that in nationwide.Any e.g. will count against you big time.Ever heard of negative TOIL?
Thanks LL.Going to get s:mad: fted again thanks to you feeling hard done by.:D

And Gonzo, where exactly are they moving you to? Ahh yes - Heathrow. That's Heathrow to Heathrow. Correct? I wonder how many Heathrow workers would actually go to the trouble of moving house so that they could be 20 minutes closer to work? How many of you, if the company offered you a paid move, would up sticks to be closer to Heathrow by 20 minutes.

I wonder, looking at the number of Heathrow members posting on this thread which is fairly small (the usual suspects one might say!:O ) in relation to the total number of staff, you are actually in a minority and don't represent the majority view. This being the case, we outsiders are obviously the victims of a little LL amusement known as 'baiting'!!

This travel time keeps changing depending on who's talking?!? :E
If management decided to change shift times/lengths, they'd have to renegotiate WP, end of story.
If I was posted from PH to PF, I'd be in a completely different situation to you, of course ;) but I'm fairly sure that the last 4 controllers/ATSA's to go either way, didn't get any relocation because the relatively short distance between the units puts you inside the mileage from work to qualify. Besides, quite a lot of people live fairly well in the middle of the units so they don't move house anyway, and the travel time is broadly similar (though more treacherous going west in the mornings!)
Lots of people move house whilst remaining at the same unit! Maybe we should all be entitled to assisted house moves whenever we decided we didn't like our commute or needed a change of scenery.
Interesting thoguht, probably true! I wonder how it would be policed if the creme de la creme got their way and ended up being 'paid' TOIL for this?

The Heathrow WP is up for renegotiation. Suggestions include
more early starts
more late stays
AAVA cover subject to WM discretion (i.e. no automatic call in to cover absence)
longer day duties
oh - and NATS wil not ever offer anything for a move to a new tower.
Just rumour at present, but a full breifing is expected soon from the union reps.
SM

"The Heathrow WP is up for renegotiation."

By a coincidence so is ours. Therefore any 'compensation' (money, extra leave etc are all welcome) may be due to us as well, if we are to be 'inconvenienced' by changing it.

However I will not hold my breath.

What do you suggest Hootin?

A pro rata payment for the number of cups of tea and biscuits consumed whilst in position? You'd be on more than me mate, and I'm creme de la creme (Band 5);)

Been looking at this thread for a while but I've been holding my breath, waiting to see if I could offer anything helpful. When I left LL 15 years ago there was much talk of where the new tower was going to go. It was to be at the end of the Kilo/hotel apron i.e. where it is now. So unless you started longer than 15 years ago you can't complain as it was well known that you were going to move there eventually IMHO. As for being a longer shift I well remember having to arrive 45 mins before shift to get on the bus on the northside, standing up with my head (not by choice!) in some smelly armpit sweltering in 85 degree heat:eek: :sad:. Didn't get any extra for it . Did like getting a T3 pass though!!;)

As for your WP negotiation giving you nothing, I expect you will get a pen or glass or something:ugh::ugh:!

Yellow Snow

How about a pro rata payment on how many times a day you can be rude to pilots.

I should do quite well then ;)

My last post on the subject, news which some of you will no doubt welcome. :rolleyes:

Cally;

Because the travel time changes depending on how quickly (or perhaps I should say how slowly) one can get through security. I know of one person who went over to the new tower the other day and took 40 minutes in the staff search queue. The figure of ten mintues is fanciful. I'll certainly be looking to arrive at the staff search with at least 30 minutes slack.

Well, there you are, you've answered your own point.

nodelay;

Correct, but not in the way you think it is. In fact, it might surprise you to know, that I'm considered a fairly rational and moderate voice on this issue. I know many of my colleagues have stronger views on this than I.

No need to flatter yourself, we're far too busy have airmisses over the channel to waste time like that! :E

Hootin';
Good on you. If Management want something, then you negotiate something for for the ATCOs in compensation, whatever that might be. Simple concept, that many here seem unable to fathom.

terrain safe;
I knew LACC was going to open (at some point) when I applied to NATS in '97, I'm sure it was on the cards well before that. We could go round and round on this subject for days! :}

And on a serious note, NATS gave me a glass tankard just the other week, so I dearly hope we don't get another! Now I do need a new pen, though......:O

I visited the new tower yesterday before coming out to Oslo again (for those who might be wondering why I've been so quiet recently). We were 20 mins in the security queue and then faced the long walk through T3 to gate 22 etc. So I understand the difficulties of getting to the new tower now. However I note that there is no mention in this thread of the shuttle bus which is being provided (at a cost to NSL of 157k pa) from the T1 car park to the tower from about 6am to midnight every day.
Other carps I've picked up on in earlier threads have been about things like strips scrolling off EFPS, no mention that its been addressed by providing 2 EFPS screens so they don't scroll off. Carp about the stainless steel loo, replaced by porcelain (in process of yesterday) and lots of white goods going into the rest room as well. Food issues, I was told, will be dealt with similarly to currently, Eurest will provide milk etc and buffet lunch (at company expense). They're also looking at a deli order type facility for delivery by Eurest.

I'm disappointed (but not surprised) to see that management are addressing the carps but there is no mention of that in pprune, only a long list of moans. I'n not sticking up for management here but I think things have been and still are very one sided in here.

BD

Sorry, last one. Promise

When I took the minibus, it took 15 minutes to drive from CP7 to the NVCR. Not that much quicker than walking.

What white goods? Only a micro and fridge freezer are allowed.

Oh, and did anyone mention the lack of plumbed drinking water? :ugh:

Perhaps if they told the staff this, there'd be less complaints. This is the first I've heard of lunch and deli orders :confused:

Perhaps if you spent less time complaining (about virtually everything it seems), your management might feel more inclined to treat you with the utmost respect you obviously feel you deserve.

Why didn't the minibus driver take the freeranging taxiway route, surely that would take a lot less time. Presumably he didn't have the appropriate airside driving pass?

I think the only people who have those sort of rights are tug drivers, Airfield Ops, Fire, Police etc.
I wouldn't have thought a minibus driver would get one of those. I doubt you are even allowed a passenger carrying vehicle such as a minibus on the Taxiways anyway unless under escort from Airfield Ops.

Free range driving permits are driver specific at Gatwick, our minibus is equipped with radios and beacon so it can be free-ranged on the airfield.