Unreported Incidents
 

About 10 months ago a serious incident occurred with two jets on final approach to a regional airport in the UK. This incident was reported to the Air Traffic Manager who failed to report further. and it was never investigated. My question is, how many other people are doing this?

Recent discussion here

Sorry should have said "how many units are hiding this?". In todays society the reports should be made if they are not then the bullit should hit them.

In today's 'benchmarking' environments, often a manager's remuneration is linked to his KPI's, and incidents/movement is a common KPI.

So, do you think this fosters an open and honest safety culture? Yeah right. From the top down. Safety and commerce make interesting bedfellows.

In the interests of safety all incidents should be reported. Failure to do so shows a lack of professional conduct and should be treated as gross misconduct. I'm sure that the fare paying passengers would not be happy if they knew that incidents were not being reported. All accidents are a chain of events, this could be the start.

nginear provides no information in his profile about what aspect of aviation he is involved in - I'd like to know. I'd also like to hear more about the alleged "incident". Plenty of members of the public see "terrifying" incidents which turn out to be quite normal, safe operations.

In the UK I've only worked at one other airport apart from Heathrow and at the latter every incident was fully investigated.

Reported by whom ??

The pilots and controllers involved have a Mandatory Occurrence Scheme which they can (and indeed on occasion are legally obliged to) use to make the necessary reports themselves. They can make the report direct to the CAA and be independent of any management chain.

If it was a member of the public who made their concerned 'report', then the professionals involved obviously had no concerns and there was no 'MOR' incident. End of story.

More detail required if you want the real answer to your query.

It was reported by one of the ATCO's to the Air Traffic Manager. Please read the link provided by Lon More for more info.

And the ATCO didn't insist it was sent or sent it direct themselves to SRG when the MATS did nothing about it ??

Guess who's breaking the law ?? (Both of them it seems !!)

6 Reporting Procedure

6.1 Submission of Reports

6.1.1 The ANO places the primary responsibility for reporting with individuals. However, the interests of flight safety are best served by full participation, in the investigation and follow-up, by the organisation involved. Therefore, wherever possible, the CAA encourages the use of company reporting systems, with a responsible person(s) within the organisation being nominated to receive all reports and to establish which reports from individuals within the organisation meet the desired criteria for an occurrence report to the CAA. Correlation of operational and technical aspects and the provision of any relevant supplementary information, e.g. the reporter’s assessment and immediate action to control the problem, is an important part of such activity. With such systems the reporting level within the organisation can be, and often is, set at a lower level than the CAA requirement in order to provide a wider monitoring of the organisation’s activities. However, when the employee making such a report is a person having a duty to report to the CAA in accordance with the ANO, the company must tell him if his report has been passed on to the CAA or not. If not, and the employee is convinced that it should, he must have the right to insist that the report be passed to the CAA or to report it directly to the CAA himself. Procedures to ensure that this right of the individual reporter is maintained must be incorporated into the organisation’s reporting procedures and be clearly stated in the relevant instructions to staff.

If it was a scary incident how come the pilots didn't file a report?

What a great lack of professionalism. When I look at the associated thread I cannot believe it, not because I do not think it is untrue but the whole scenario. Members of the UK Airprox board failing to report incidents. Unit Managers failing to report incidents. ATCO's failing to report incidents. SRG failing to do anything about it. What is going on? This is not a small matter but a major one, failure to act on people who are breaking the law is inexcusable. The aviation profession is supposed to be the safest and most highly regulated one in the world. Obviousely not.

qcode - someone else who prefers to remain totally anonymous. Why don't you publish some details in your profile??

HD

I figured out what you used to do for a living by your user name. I realise you were only an ATCO so if you cannot figure what I do then I will explain. I am an ENGINEER. If you need further clarification the please look in the dictionary, I cannot find one for you.

Rgds

The whole point is, regardless of being anonymous (which is the point of this forum), is the lack of professional people complying with the rules that they are supposed to comply with. The issue of worldwide aviation safety issues which have to be complied with is very important. People are breaking the law and getting away with it. Wait for the results of the next major aviation catastrophe, lack of reporting could be part of the cause. It has been aired here, if nothing is done about it then it will have at least been recorded.
I hope you aviation professionals have got the balls to sort it out, I'm going on holiday in two weeks and if my plane crashes due to anything concerned with this then my lawyer is ready.

Having filed against myself for something that was entirely my fault I cannot see why others cannot do the same. We are all human and will make the occasional mistake. I found out some things about myself by following my investigation and it only makes me a better controller having been there. I will never file an incident thats not related directly to me, but would hope the controllers concerned do themselves. I will mention things to my managers, but its up to them where they take that.

From the original thread:The key word being "heard"

If you are looking for serious comment post something more authorative than that.

Despite being "only an ATCO" HD has probably been in aviation a lot longer than you and although that does not automatically qualify him for respect I would consider his posts carefully before jumping in with both feet.

BTW Didn't engineers build the Titanic? :8

qcode Maybe you would like to insert the word "allegedly" in there somewhere?

Actually that's NOT the point of this Forum, it is merely one of the operating conditions for it. The point of the Forum is to discuss ATC topics.

Pretty slim odds, but no doubt compensation is covered in law (Warsaw Convention, etc). Hopefully your lawyer will be bigger and better than those which get the big bucks from airlines, ATC, manufacturers, etc. Does he practice in aviation compensation as his main job ?


119.5

The most unprofessional action here lies with the ATCO involved who did NOT ensure that he complied with the MOR scheme. If the ATS Manager said he was not submitting the report , and told the ATCO filing it he was not doing so, then he is complying with the Scheme. Responsibility for submitting the report then lies with the Reporting ATCO. It seems to me like some folk are trying to make !!!! stick to the Manager ATS, which kind of backfires when you read the MOR Scheme requirements. Whilst it is desireable that an employer has open reporting and will forward everything to the CAA, they are not legally mandated to do so. Provided they have the facility for staff to be told that their report is not being submitted and a right for them either to insist the company do send it or a right to send it themselves, then the law is being adhered to.

nginear

I`m not normally given to comments of a personal nature as I don`t see the point unless there`s a bit of humour involved but in this case I`m prepared to make an exception.

Having previously read your posts on "slot abuse" it appears from your tone that you have some serious issues particularly with regard to the Satco at your unit.

Perhaps it may be more prudent to have a word with him face to face rather than just use this forum to have a dig in disguise about things that from your point of view are only hearsay and as for having a pop at HD even an engineer should no better!!

Kind Regards TR

Over here it is much easier. You report the incident to your supervisor who is supposed to report it up the chain. The good news is that if someone higher up sits on it and gets caught, that is one of our firing offenses <G>...

regards

Scott

Sounds like an excellent scheme Scott :ok:

Do ATCOs also have the 'get out of jail free' card if they file a NASA Air Safety Report instead ??

Yes under the provisions of the report, however, we don't really use it as we have other protections that pretty much keep the agency at bay, but they are getting nastier by the day it seems. Our wonderful administrator seems to be bowing up even more than the past and is blaming we controllers for all of her woes. We've been trying to keep up with her in the press to ensure that the facts come out. But she is gearing up for contract negotiations so as to make us look like a bunch of greedy buggers. Might be a bit harder this time around since I bet we aren't going to be asking for much of anything in gains <G>...

regards

Scott

Nginear,

I thought you had stopped throwing muck about some weeks ago. What is it between you and this individual that you feel the need to keep slagging him off.

With regard to anonymity, this individual was "outed" quite publicly in a previous forum about slot abuse as already mentioned.

So what is it? Turn down your aplication for a job or something?

Give it a rest!

Nginear,
Can't help but agree with the previous post. Read yourself, you come over as a whinging rumour peddlar. Put up or shut up! AND that should not be on this forum.

If you have the facts and a valid complaint tell the powers that be and pack in the childish rant here. You are like a kid who did'nt get picked for the team. ILS should give this a thought too!:mad:

Serious problems here:-

Members of the UK Airprox Board not reporting incidents.

UK Aviation safety being in doubt due to this.

SAFETY doesn't look good to me if these people are in charge.

qcode,

I am sorry but you are just stirring it. There are no facts to back up these ludicrous suggestions

qcode,

What facts do you have to support your "statement / or as W aptly puts it - stirring"?

Are there any facts?

and
Why not contact the relevant authorities with them instead of wittering on this forum?


If this is a "serious problem" - get serious.

I just get the feeling that you find the slander more fun than the facts!

Maybe I'm just too sensitive a chap:yuk:

I have no evidence, and as if the thread suggests because of the non reporting of the incident , then there will not be any. My point is that in a safety concious professional environment, these things should not happen. If nobody says anything then the industry becomes unsafe due to lack of professionalism. If it is true that a member of the UK Airprox Board is not reporting incidents then they should be severely reprimanded. This is not a personal vendetta against any one individual but a statement to keep the aviation industry as safe as possible. Come on guys, if you professionals are not willing to make the industry safe then who is?

For someone who has no evidence and who has based comments questioning the professionalism of my ATC brothers and sisters, you're very lucky I don't tell you to go and get stuffed.

It is outrageous that you feel you can use comments that cast even the slightest dispersion on ANY aviation professional based on the loose premise this thread has begun with. Let alone contine to spread your totally unfounded and quite inflammatory jibes regarding what appears to be an ill informed opinion regarding ATCO's attitude to saftey in our business. I for one am insulted.

I openly challenge you to reveal what you profession is, in an attempt to glean what authority you have to base your accusations on.

And before you decide to come out with "Oh, big words from somebody hiding on an internet forum", quite a few people here do know me, and know I would say that quite happily to your face.

So if I have got this right - you have joined in stirring up sh#t based upon hearsay and little else - certainly NO fact.


"If nobody says anything then the industry becomes unsafe due to lack of professionalism".


Could it just be possible that there is nothing to report?
Could it just be possible that the "professionals" know / knew thier job?
Could it just be possible that you have joined in with pushing unsubstantiated crap?

"I have no evidence, and as if the thread suggests because of the non reporting of the incident , then there will not be any".

= cos nothing wos done it proves there is a cover-up.

Nice logic ace!:\

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean you're not all out to get me!:}

For your information, I am a 30 year old student writing a thesis on "Human Factors In Aviation" for my PHD. I have an ATPL and have 2000 hrs flying experience. I have also studied all the ATC manuals. I have studied and know more of the the Human Factor side of things than many of you. My aim is to become a consultant in Aviation Human Factors in the UK or for ICAO. If you guys and gals cannot see fundamental problems within your business then there is a severe problem. If the thread is true then there is a fundamental problem, which could lead to major accidents. It is up to you to sort it out, not me. If you cannot sort it then there is another major problem. At least I will not be the one in the dock.

Ah, you've read all the books..... I tried that once, read a book on how to play chess, seemed simple enough to me but strangely it didn't make me an expert!

If I were you I'd dip out now before the flack really starts!

You're quite obviously dodging the biggest statement you have made so far, aren't you. You mention you're writing a thesis. One would hope you're not just basing it on conjecture, hearsay and rumour.
"I have no evidence for my thesis, but I overheard this guy who was telling this other guy he heard.........." :rolleyes:

Booksmarts you say. I know more than operational controllers.......give me a break.

Actually, I have changed my mind.

Get stuffed.

Oh well that explains it all then.:yuk:
your mind is made up
you have read a book
pootled about in an aircraft
are a personal friend of Ziggy Freud
and display the ego of a true believer

We are just not worthy. All is forgiven - you are the font of all knowledge. You could make a huge difference in aviation safety - stay away from it

One hopes the PHD has a couple of facts in it or all your efforts will be to no avail, - - just like they have been on this thread really:rolleyes: :\

In my experience, the problem with most self-appointed Human Factors Experts (and we know the definition of "expert", do we not?), apart from their insufferable holier-than-thou attitude, is that they totally overlook the fact that the rest of us are members of the human race and understand the principles they are expounding perfectly well - when they are not wrapped up, that is, in a liberal coating of b*ll!!!!!.

What they are experts in most of the time, as with Sybil Fawlty, is the ability to state the bleeding obvious.

qcode, you mention you are writing your thesis on Human Factors in aviation.I would be very interested to know what have you based your discussion on,have you focused more on any one facet be it pilots, ATC, maintence, management or other?
You also mention you have studied all ATC manuals. May I ask what was the point of that?
Perhaps if and when your findings are published you could provide a copy.

No, flying a G5 around europe into major international airports, but gladly not the one discussed in this thread.

Thank you for your true professional comment. I do not hope that any of your attitude affects your new colleagues in Canada.

The whole thesis includes all the factors you mention. On completition it will be available at all University libraries. The reason for studying ATC Manuals was to understand ATC regulations and any effect they may have on human performance.

qcode,

One suspects that if you read the responses to your CV you may learn a basic fact that could become the only one that you get right in the PHD:

A publically exposed arse just rightly begs to be smacked!
:cool:

:}

My point exactly!

QCode;

If you want to learn a few things about ATC human factors, there is a group at the FAA Tech center that does that sort of thing and they study the heck out of it <G>... I happen to be one of thier studies this week <G>...

But probably one of the most knowledgeable folks is Dr. Kim Cardosi. This lady probably has more experience with controllers than most people on the face of the earth. You would do very good in looking into all that she has published and maybe having a talk with her... She is one of the few Dr's that I have seen that "gets it." from an operational perspective. She looks at it from the eye of reality and not that of purely acadamia...

reagards

Scott