Scott,

Thanks for that information and I will certainly research what she has done. It is nice to see someone trying to support the industry.

Rgds,

Q

Widger,

Sorry this person is not qualified to employ me, nor would I work for such an unprofessional person.

qcode,thank you for answering my initial questions. Of course, with out going into major specifics, could you perhaps expand a little on what you have found regarding procedures and their effect on human performance.
I'll try not to be as blunt as some of the others here, but I personally think the reason you have put a few noses out of joint is that you did admit you have no evidence to support any of the claims, yet you do give the impression of believing there is some "conspiracy" or whatever majorly covering up aviation incidents.
You do seem to be talking cross purposes when you say things like "I have no evidence, and as if the thread suggests because of the non reporting of the incident , then there will not be any". Sorry, but that makes no sense what so ever. What sounds like word of mouth, I think you have heard something, maybe even form this board. Several operational ATCers have given you answers and input that you are ignoring for what ever your reason is. I guess that is why there is the warning at the bottom of the pages regarding agendas. Maybe I will have to be blunt, but do you have another agenda, because questioning the saftey of people in the job on this internet forum isn't going to achieve anything.

Do you have an opinion on the ATCO, who having found out the SATCO was not filing the report, appears not to have carried out his/her own legal duty to file a Mandatory Occurence Report with the CAA ?? The ultimate responsibility to ensure such a report is made does lie with them as previously explained.

Devils advocate mode[/off]

Actually, I have changed my mind again (I can be so fickle at times, just ask Gonzo). Best of luck in you endeavours in achieveing the consultant position you seek.

I would also strongly suggest and encourage you to maintain your ability to make decisions without the slightest bit of factual evidence and purely base it on hearsay.........it will earn you the respect you deserve.

I do not just give my opinion on "hearsay". I am only making a comment on this thread. My future career and the aviation industry will depend on my comments regarding (alledged) incidents such as this. What some of the more blunter replies show to me that there is a certain protection of colleagues. It is not the protection of fellow workmates which is the problem, it is the necessisity to ensure safe aviation practice worldwide. Fortunate or unfortunate my expertise (or lack of, as some of you believe) will be in the Human Factors side. I have flown for 13 years now and studied Aviation for 10 years. I am enthusiastic about the industry and want to contribute more. Human Factors is the side I am mainly interested in. If you want to continue slagging me off then that is up to you, you can't beat professional equality and respect.
Rgds

You've done a bloody good job here :rolleyes:

And "professional equality and respect" is something that has to be earned, and is so easily quashed when you anonymously accuse anyone of being anything other than professional.

Fickle? Well, something like that, Jer! :}

qcode, with all respect, for someone who has self proclaimed expertise in Human Factors (an area in which I am no more than a very interested amateur, I freely admit), you seem to be lacking some understanding of how your comments come across.

Just think for a moment, if I commented on a thread in a G5 pilots' forum, flinging accusations around that G5 pilots are unsafe; that they fail to log air safety reports; that their bosses, who might be on the airprox board, fail to file reports; that there's a big cover up and all round lack of professionalism, what would be the reaction from you and your colleagues? Perhaps then I might back up my accusations with phrases such as: "I have no evidence" and "I'm not a pilot, but I've read all the G5 flight manuals...." What would be the response then?

An interesting HF question, isn't it?

Gonzo,

Good points and thank you, I accept your points with constructive criticism. Another good thing to arise out of this thread is different peoples attitudes towards safety issues.
Regarding the flying, I can assure you that all our reports are filed on our particular a/c and any continuing crews are advised. We only have one boss and he is even more concerned with safety than I, as he is mostly one of the few passengers.

Jerricho,

Again I say to you I am only commenting on this thread. It is only from what I percieve and what I believe to be correct.

Today - the aviation industry will depend on his comments. Tomorrow - the world?

Sheesh. A legend in his own mind.

If you do not have a goal in life then you will never go anywhere. My goal is as stated earlier and I will attain it.

Please qcode, if you have a second would you mind answering my questions.

Qcode,

I'm not sure how many ATCOs you've had the chance to talk to, but the first thing we're all taught on day one, and roughly about every hour on the hour after that is 'safety first'. There is a very obvious safety culture amongst UK ATCOs (I mention UK ATCOs as I only have experience of the training and operational culture in this country) at 'the coal face'. It has to be said that this is sometimes 'despite' rather than 'because of' our management/non-operational/Airport authority support.

No one segment of aviation/industry/life is perfect, and we do have our fair share of those who might not have the same enthusiasm, or order of priorities for safety as do most of us. I myself have sent reports direct to the CAA SRG and CHIRP as well as to my management, rather than just to my superiors.

CRR,

I'm sorry not to have answered your questions. As you are aware a thesis is a very complicated and researched process. Your questions cannot be answered on an individual basis. There are many procedures that effect performance for both pilots and controllers, not forgetting mangement and ground staff. I cannot expand any further. Please send me a PM if you want to discuss.
Let me point out to you all a recent incident which I have benn looking at.
AIRTRANSAT fuel leak, was nearly ditched into the pond. Thank God it never happenned. What was the cause? Failure to fit the wrong part in the engine, what follwed from this? Bad crew management. Luckily they were diverted 60 miles south of the original track which meant that they could, or were enable to, glide enough to reach the Azores and land.
This "incident" was a near catastrophe. It all boils down to human factors, which started at the beginning.

Does that mean they fitted the correct part? I hope your thesis is a bit more accurate than that. Joking aside, Qcode your posts come across as very "holier than though" and give the impression that no-one else on this forum is entitled to a professional opinion. What is this role you will be taking on? Secretary of State? If so then you can expect a whole lot of extra abuse.

The whole story to this forum was Nginear, yet again slurring the good name of someone that I have personally known for over 10 years. I had worked with him in the past and continue to do so. As a friend I felt the need to defend this person.
I totally refute the scurrilous accusations made against him. If there is an issue about personalities, then the people concerned should take the matter up with him direct. He was publically identified by Nginear in a previous forum and there were some other posts, kindly deleted by the Moderator, that directly attacked the individual concerned. I was with him when he received the news of the latter attack on his character and he was understandably hurt and mortified that someone thought of him in this way. By the way..inmate of HMP West Drayton,....we know who you are!

All the previous comments about the controllers concerned filing reports are equally valid. I do not accept that there is a conspiracy to cover up incidents. I feel that there is a very healthy safety culture in the UK, despite commercial pressures that have built up over many years. Many agencies promote this safety culture, from DASC in the military, to GATCO, BALPA, the Unions and even companies like NATS itself.

have a pleasant week!




:ok: :ok:

qcode

There you go -

Widger, a chap / lass (sorry Widger, didn't want to guess) who DOES have a fact or two has bestowed them upon you.

Read, Digest and do us all a favour by stopping your attempts to justify an attack upon a profession, and specifically an individual, which you have no basis in FACT to support.

How, as a self professed "expert", can you justify spouting cr#p and expect not to be challenged? The Aviation profession deals in fact, not supposition!! - its a safety thing! Page one of the book - not the book that starts "Once upon a time.....":mad:

What?

Don't you mean "holier than thou"?

If certain professionals want to go around and make themselves appear as idiots then it is not my problem. If they do not wish to conform to the rules then that is up to them. Fortunately, my initial post is true. I know the names of the controllers involved and even the names of some of the passengers on the second aircraft. My initial question was regarding aviation safety and whether this practice happens elsewhere, and if it does it should be stopped. Do you think that the police pick on criminals and publicly humiliate them by sending them to court for breaking the law?

"not supposition", what a load of bol*o*ks. Of course supposition comes into the equation.

Don't talk sh1te!!

Rumour on the street indicates that confidential reports are waiting to be written if there are any more occurences. People are watching and listening.

Once again nginear avoids the answer about what those actually involved in the 'incident' did.

Your story doesn't make sense. First of all we have the Watch Manager taking control and sorting out the incident. In which case, why didn't he/she file a report direct with the CAA as per the law ?? Then we have the incident being reported to the ATS Manager. Was this by the Tower Controller ?? Someone else ?? Did they file direct with the CAA as per the law ??

No good these people blaming non reporting on the ATS Manager when the legality is that the responsibility for doing so ultimately lies with them. Did you 'hear' why they didn't report things to the CAA then ??

Or is it simply some attempt to sling mud at the ATS Manager ?? Time to put up or shut up on this issue.

ILS 119.5, nginear, qcode

If the 3 of you get together you should be able to write the next blockbuster fiction novel, buy an aiport and then be able to afford to fly safely world-wide whilst making babies.
It is a luvverly thought. Poor old gene pool gets diminished a tad though!!!!!

Go on - just for a laugh - come up with a FACT,
ANY FACT that supports any of this boll#x :yuk:

Feel free to be as abusive to me as you wish - just start off with 1 FACT. Not "I heard", "rumour has it", "my mate said". Go on, 1, just 1 fact, please...............

Or better still pass the fact to the people who should be dealing with the matter :mad:

Sits back and waits, tis only a matter of time............... :E

Stillin1

If you want facts then please read the original post. I would never post anything which is untrue. You seem to have something against certain members of this forum and take any posts personally.
Why don't you tell us all what your so called qualifications are rather than being anonymous. Are you a you sptty faced kid with nothing better to do or (which is more likely) do you actually work at the unit and involved in the cover up.
Please tell us.

Ok, cut the bull!!!! nginear.

Tell us the unit involved, if you have the balls to.

Not the names of those whom you think were involved.......just the unit.

The challenge is down AGAIN. Stop trying to dodge the question.

Put up or shut up. :mad:

Broke rule 1 - NO FACTS
Nothing personal

This is too easy:cool:

Oh! - Answer to your Qs - my choice. No. No

Next!:mad:

Happened at LBA with one of ours. Obviousely logged in the a/c log book. The incident was reported to the Air Traffic Manager by another controller who was not there at the time and therefore could not report himself not knowing the true facts. However it did happen and not reported by the ATCO concerned.

The intercom between tower and approach was something along the lines of:
Approach: My mum and Dad were on that one.
Tower: Yeah, and you nearly fu***ng killed them.

You asked me, so I have told you.

Myself and my colleagues discussed this post before it was originally aired. We all felt strongly, in the interests of aviation safety, that it should be posted.

Rgds.

Playing the game here:

Why didn't the operator report it?

Still smells of bull!!!!! and rumour.

There's those word again. And tell me, just what is being achieved, in the interests of saftey, by posting it here??

LBA controllers out there?

I've flown into LBA many times and maybe the pilot had the first one visual and did not realise how close due to it being night and all the other lights around. Maybe the tcas was not working at such close proximity to the ground. Maybe they were IMC. Regardless of what anyone says if true cannot be allowed to happen again. I'll ask around some of my mates who the skipper was involved and what exactly happenned.

From my point of view the point of posting here indicates that there is a "human factors" element. Either there is a problem with the reporting scheme, there is a problem with the unit management or there is a problem with the people involved. In any case human factors are involved and need to be examined to stop any future problems. This is why reports have to be submitted and examined to stop future incidents and to improve any flaws in the system.

OR

There is the human element of "the boy who cried wolf" :rolleyes:

Still waiting for actual facts, which are glaringly inadequate. You guys could write for the Sun.

Hi, names's Gary; long time listener, first time caller:

What a/c have log books which require entry of ATC incidents? If the aircraft had actually hit each other, then there'd be something to put in the (technical?) log!

Huh?

I would suggest (include it in your thesis if you like) that until aviation is run by robots, who are programmed by robots, then every single thing that ever happens in aviation has a 'human factors element'. You seem quick to forget that every day, every thing that goes right has a 'human factors element' as well. But wannabe human factors 'experts' don't very often point out when things go right, do they? I'll save my respect for the real HF boys in the AAIB, who have operational experience as well as a few books under their belt.

Or: there isn't a problem at all (as people have attempted to suggest) and therefore your ominscent input is not required. What a shame that would be!

For anyone with lots of free time to devote to 'non-reporting of incidents', and how they affect public safety, why don't you take a good look at the medical profession in the UK - lots of subject matter there for your thesis! You might even make a difference - but then, doctors and nurses aren't as exciting as aeroplanes, are they? ;)

I would have to respectfully disagree with you there :D

Wow! Energy, insight, compound sentences, even punctuation! Gary, you sound like Jerricho did before he got all bitter and stuff… :ok:

Just kidding buddy… I know it’s the weight of the world what done this to you…

Correct, they do not, but it is all in the equation. The whole idea is to make all the rights outweigh the wrongs and to ensure any of the wrongs (as we are all Human) are supressed to ensure they do not happen again. I know it all sounds like a load of cr*p, but thats the way it is. At the end of the day it is to ensure Aviation Safety.

Like making an assumption about something that you have no factual information on?:rolleyes:

I`m with Jerricho on this one, we`ve had very little in the way of factual information.

nginear, if all you`ve got to go on is hearsay and a bit of banter between Tower and Approach you and your colleagues should maybe have " discussed this post " for a little longer " before it was originally aired ".
Excuse my cynicism but it is obvious from previous postings that you have a problem with the Satco at your unit as this is the second time you`ve tried to drop him in it

Having bitten my tongue long enough I have a question for nginear . Do you understand the difference between fact and hearsay?

Definition
hearsay [Show phonetics]
noun [U]
information you have heard, although you do not know whether it is true or not:

No facts there just:

And for qcode I assume that you're aware that ATC has its own HF organisation, there are at least 10 HF experts which work for my company, 2 of whom I have worked closely with. They deal in facts not supposition and rumour. I can never recall either of them saying that they'd heard from their mate Bill down the pub that his mate Chalkie had heard about this problem with the ATC screens and you need to get it fixed. :bored: :bored: :bored:

BD

Folks, as we have come to page six of this one, our elustrious Human Factors "expert" and his !!!!! stirring mate aren't interested in facts........they have achieved their goal of casting dispersions on LBA staff. And I think it's just going to keep going round and round, with our little friends ignoring anything that fall outside of their agenda (guess that's whay there's a warning at the bottom of the page here)

I've read back through and every time they are challeneged to provide facts, we receive a piss weak "I have heard" or "I have no evidence, but........." (I still love that on). Yet we keep seeing the "I'm the champion of saftey and justice" nappy being waved.

I honestly hope our little HF friend here changes his "investigation style" if he truely wants to get anywhere in the industry. As BDiONU very rightly states

I'm betting $10 now that if there is a reply, I know what it's going to be :E

Jerricho
£20, and
I know who!:E

If it's that much of a concern, have you CHIRPed it?