NATS to provide at Lulsgate
 

Any truth in the whisper that NATS have made a 'financially attractive' offer to Bristol International for ATC provision?:sad:

If this is true ...and I hope so ..what will poor old Standard Noise do now!! :ok: Working for NATS......EEK

I've heard a similar rumour.....and apparently some HR people from NATS are on their way to have a sniff around...........:confused:

I was chatting to someone who seemed to know a bit about this the other day and apparently NATS are interested in Bristol with a view to basing a combined radar unit there in a couple of years when the West End airspace changes have taken effect in order to provide radar services to Bristol, Cardiff and Filton.

That seems logical and should rationalise the service provided by cutting down on the seemingly unecessary changes of frequency in the climb out of (and descent into) Bristol.

Jumping the gun slightly, should NATS get the Bristol contract there is talk about combining the radar units , however there is no decision as to where it would be based that is a long way off. A brand new building isn't the only consideration.
I doubt if it would make much of a difference to the changes of frequency either, you would still be handed to the Final director when inbound whether or not it was at a combined unit or separate units.

Whilst undeniably sensible to combine the radar provision in the Cradiff/Bristol basin, I doubt if Filton will appreciate being lumped in amongst it. Having said that though, with the proposed West End changes, there may be little choice for them:eek:

Don't Cardiff and Bristol control Filton's airways departures anyway?

That part of the world is getting quite busy these days with the expansion at Bristol International, it's quite usual for aircraft on the sequence to be told that they're number 6 or 7 (or more). More airspace for Bristol couldn't come soon enough.

When I referred to unecessary frequency changes I meant those times when an aircraft is put to another unit to be held on a silent frequency for several minutes with no other instructions passed until passed on. Extra calls and work for the pilot!

Not all, and not always. Northbounds stay with Filton, as can eastbounds if Bristol have nothing to affect. Westbounds tend to stay with Filton until clear of other traffic and then transferred to Cardiff.
Bear in mind there are other airspace users. Much as the Commercial operators want more CAS around that area there's also a heavy training commitment by a lot of the Commercial schools (Oxford etc) to airfields in the area (EGTG/EGBJ mainly). Any CAS allocation will have to take the impact on that into account.

Of course - once it's all sorted it'll all change again when the new ICAO 3 airspace classifications take over ;)

I understand that if NATS get Bristol, a combined unit will definately be there - apparently thats part of the terms of the contract that NATS are discussing with the Bristol management.

Looks like quite a plum posting for NATS ATCOs, a great place to live and work with good access to the holiday spots of the south west!

a combined unit sounds a great idea, in the meantime can I ask if at all possible that we be transferred to the next unit along (London if outbound, Bristol if inbound) if there's no traffic to effect, workload permits and you have radar cover to monitor us. The old system was so much better!

Easy Life, Cardiff is performing a function for London Ie Delegated airspace, thus when talking to Cardiff you are talking to a "London" sector.
Personally as soon as you are clean of other traffic and no longer likely to be a confliction I hand you straight to the next frequency.
A lot of work has gone on of late stream lining the procedures reducing co-ordination between the units, this may not be apparent to the flight crews but it has freed up a considerable amount of workload and increased capacity and reduced flow restrictions on the sector. The "old way" you refer to was not better at all.

As I said do not think for one minute that a combined unit is going to Bristol, the bean counters will decide where it goes and on paper Bristol is certainly not the cheaper option far from it. Of course we are assuming it will go to one or the other but there is also another place it can go to on the South Coast. Having lived in both city's I can also assure you quality of life is infinitely superior West of the Bridge.

This is all jumping the gun, as yet no contract has been announced and although a good proportion of the Lulsgate staff I have talked to are happy with the NATS proposal there are some who are not, to talk about combining the units when an announcement has yet to be made is unfair on those who are currently feeling uncertain of their future.

Easy life,

that's a principle that controllers the world over use. Each aircraft is a hot potato, and if there is nothing to affect, then it will be passed to the next controller along the line (until there is no-one left to pass it to) just in case they happen to call Mayday;)

If you are being kept on a quiet frequency I can assure you that it is not for the controller's benefit.

They warned me about entering the lions den that is ATC!

I understand the principle of being transferred from sector to sector along a route including between approach units and enroute, what I was referring to is that sometimes it seems unecessary for Bristol to transfer aircraft to Cardiff for a short period of time without any further instructions being passed (and seemingly no one else on frequency) only to then be transferred on to London. Why can't Bristol keep hold of the outbound slightly longer and then transfer it directly to London?

Easy,

I know next to nothing aboutthe airspace around Bristol and Cardiff, but here's a basic view:

You usually talk to Bristol, then Cardiff, then London...correct?

Now, for you to go straight from talking to Bristol to talking to London, Bristol ATCO has to phone Cardiff ATCO and ask for permission to go straight to London, and if there is anything to affect. In the meantime, what happens if London want you at a different level?.....They know that they usually get you from Cardiff, so the London ATCO talks to Cardiff, who he assumes you're talking to, to co-ordinate, but Cardiff says that, no, Bristol are still speaking to you. So London ATCO phones Bristol ATCO to co-ordiante.

ATC standing agreements are based on the fact that each ATCO knows to whom all the a/c in neighbouring airspace are talking to, in case he or she needs to co-ordniate.

Three or more phone calls and three-way co-ordination can all get a bit messy when the ATCO is busy (not neccessarily co-incident with the frequency being busy).

Because the airspace that you are transiting through is delegated to Cardiff not Bristol.
The procedures off RWY27 mean you get climbed to FL60 we then do the climb up to the next standing agreed level, procedures off RWY09 allow for you to be climbed up to the next standing agreed level however you are in confliction with multitudes of traffic coming from multiple directions.
You are also only hearing one frequency they are other frequencies operating against which you may have conflicting traffic.Cardiff is integrating traffic from a number of airfields not just Bristol into a stream of traffic spaced for the next sector, A considerable number of Military crossers transit that airspace, we have Filton traffic which is operating on Filtons frequency which we give cleared flight paths too.
What may seem a quiet sector is far from it.
The system works and particularly off RWY 27 works exceptionally well.
Can you imagine yourself asking the same question on one of the London TMA frequencies, stop thinking of it as Cardiff and start thinking of it as the next enroute frequency then it should make more sense to you.

( had to have a bit of a giggle when I discovered that some call us the Cardiff TRACON, all in fun of course but not that far from the truth)

Gonzo,
what you have written is how it used to work and yes it was a nightmare at times, tying down the procedures to the ones we have has increased the flow of traffic through the sector and made it a lot safer.
When the additional delegated function was done it was not produced in isolation, neither were the procedures to which we now adhere.
Bristol ATC management were fully involved at all stages. As a unit we work very closely with them, I personally would be delighted to see them Join NATS.

Easy Life

I'm afraid logic and an easy life is far from the minds of airspace management people and you can forget about the customer (You) having any bearing on the matter. A heavy dose of local politics is also involved in this mix up............. hence the pointless frequent frequency changes. Hopefully this will be cleared up when there is more controlled airspace and a joint radar unit in this area.

Cardiff Tracon Flower?? And how many of you at EGFF hold ATC Area Ratings to provide this function for LACC? :confused:

OK so as a customer perhaps Im not fortunate enough to have any input into air traffic management and there are specialists who must design the procedures to handle increasing traffic levels.

I do agree that some of the frequency changes are pointless as its easy to get a picture of what is going on by just listening to a frequency and as I understand Bristol can 'see' well out beyond Brecon and Exmor so could retain us under there control if required. During the day at some times admittedly there is traffic to effect and we are controlled as required but in the evening this does tail off.

Another question for you, why is the airspace delegated to Cardiff when most of the traffic originates from or terminates at Bristol? Surely it can't be just the geographical proximity of the airway to Cardiff?

Who operates en-rte ATC in the UK? NATS

Who supplies ATC at Cardiff? NATS

Who supplies the infrastructure to allow that delegation (radar, radio etc)? NATS

In addition to which - Cardiff is actually centrally positioned to the delegated airspace, which runs TALGA - Exeter as well as ALVIN - AMMAN

Cardiff TRACON
 

Hey! I like that, has a kind of ring to it.
It is true that in the first few weeks of delegation Cardiff were a bit "iffy"; but they have more than made up for it. Given the airspace geometry they have to work with, they are darned good.....hats off to you chaps/chapesses.
The difference between strictly "approach" or strictly "area" is rightly blurred these days.....we just want to get the job done. An approach based TRACON will always have the upper hand in service delivery, their radars normally update every 4 seconds or so, and their picture hasn't been artificially "mushed" to anything like the modern "area" picture; and if they have 3-mile dispensation.....no contest.
Interestingly Cardiff have more delegated airspace than Manchester Sub-centre had when it first opened, I seem to recall climbing HON outbounds to FL110 and chucking to London.
Although I appreciate the 40-mile limit for "Approach radar" which is a historical radar performance related artificial boundary, I am sure there must be an avenue to allow a greater limit when the traffic is wholly contained in regulated airspace.
AVALON and EASYLIFE....lay off Cardiff and Bristol, they are very good at what they do....if you want an axe to grind why not find out why northbounds to Scotland are level-capped whereas London airfields are not....track distance not much different....and why London-Dublin traffic on a route 35 miles shorter is likewise unrestricted.

I am sorry Easy Life you simply cannot get the full picture from listening to one frequency as I thought I had already explained to you, we also have to plan against traffic coming out of 5 other airfields other than Bristol.

The situation is quite simple, Cardiff has the airspace delegated to it. We are in an area where there are sector overlaps and the airspace above us can get quite complicated regarding transfer of control , climb throughs etc. You require one controlling authority else wise the situation lends itself to utter confusion.
Would you suggest in the London TMA for example that simply because one unit can see beyond a certain point and as at times there is no traffic on that frequency that you should simply forget that frequency and let someone else do the job ?

I can see Birmingham and Southampton and Bournemouth on the radar does that mean i should keep traffic all the way there although other units may have responsibility for a section of airspace between myself and them.

For whatever reason Cardiff has the airspace, that isn't going to change within the foreseeable future. The procedures have been developed to accommodate the increase in traffic flow through the area. They are a vast improvement although you may not see it, sector flow restrictions have all but disappeared because of the procedures we have in place.
The watch I work opposite are excellent, if on RWY 27 and they have no conflictions you as a pilot will generally be transferred ex Tower to us and you get in the majority of the cases Continuous climb and direct routings. Some watches however hold on to the traffic particularly off RWY 09 and only give you to us passing FL130 without any conflicting traffic.

Avalon may think its all political and they are entitled to that view, I would object to anyone saying that you do not get good customer service. We particularly with the new procedures in place now offer a much safer procedure, again something not necessarily that you were previously aware of.
I would suggest you come along to Cardiff Easy Life and come and see what happens, we would make you very welcome.

I would think should the few at Bristol who have a negative view of things will change their mind when they work the airspace eventually should we combine.

Thank you for your kind words 055166K.
Yes when we took on the additional airspace it was a massively steep learning curve for us all, we did it if i remember correctly without all the simulations and trials one would hope to get.

The job we do now is I think possibly one of the most enjoyable and interesting within the UK. With the addition of Bristol and making it a combined approach can only make it better not only for us at Cardiff but also for our Bristol colleagues.
The ability to use 3 miles can really help sort out the myriad of conflictions which from Easy Life\'s post may not be immediately apparent to Air Crew. We work very closely with our London colleagues and i think our relationship with them has improved greatly.

The 40 mile limit is no longer in there but working traffic beyond 40 miles has to be approved by SRG and that can be a hard process, however should we combine then that 40mile limit will have to change but all of that of course has already been thought of.

A lively debate although maybe slightly off topic now! Not sure about NATS at Bristol but the current setup seems extremely professional and well run at the moment.

Flower: I'm guessing that the 5 airfields in the area you refer to are Cardiff, Bristol, Filton Gloucester and ?, I think the point that Easy Life was making is that Bristol contributes more to the number of movements than the others combined and so it would be suggested that they should work most of the traffic (as with Manchester in the Manchester TMA) I happen to know that Bristol have more up to date equipment as well. Good pilots listen to transmissions and get a mental picture of who is where in the sequence and where traffic effecting their flight is and what it's doing.

Chilli Monster: Should one company have a monopoly in the free market that is modern European ATC? Single European Skys and all that... As far as I know the radar and radios at Bristol belong to Bristol International. Cardiff maybe centrally positioned to the delegated airspace but by that hypothesis airways for England and Wales should be controlled from somewhere between Birmingham and Manchester instead of Swanwick. You can do radar from anywhere nowadays.

Easy Life - Go and visit ATC in Bristol and/or Cardiff if you havent done so, Im sure they'd make you welcome and answer your questions. It's always good to see things from the other side.

True, but only if the radar pictures are piped in from remote heads. Cardiff, Bristol, Filton and Exeter (Flowers 5th airfield believe it or not) all have autonomous primary radar heads, with secondary (for FF,GD & TG) piped in from Clee Hill (TE's comes from Burrington). With that in mind Cardiff and their associated primary is still the most central.

As for the other things - hey, if I had my way (and would be better for the customer) I would not have any radar services supplied by any airfield. I'm not saying it happens but what's to stop one airfield which has airspace delegated to it, giving priority to its own traffic against a nearby airfields that has to join that delegated airspace. A far better solution would have been to have one provider, from various 'mini centres' supplying radar service on an equal basis in a re-sector'd country (and I'm referring to civil and military here) rather than the divide between the sctorised en-rte and the fragmented terminal services we have in the UK at the moment. Seems to work in the US - why can't we manage it here?

So would a NATS takeover of Bristol ATC be a good or bad thing for either the end user (pilots/airlines), airport company or the ATCOs that work there?

What has been the experience of ATCOs at the few airfields that have been taken over by NATS? What do the members of Bristol ATC think.

My experience has been local authority/quasi-military and transport companies fancying their chances at a bit of transport integration before changing their minds, has NATS yet shaken off the civil service type bureaucracy?

I have it on excellent authority that NATS wish to take over Bristol ATC because they would like a combined radar unit for that part of the world to be there, why are they going down the subcentre route there when they seem to have done a U-turn at Manchester?

Floating harbour, yes pilots pick up a mental picture of traffic on their frequency but there is more than one frequency operating within the same airspace by co located controllers.

Bristol were the ones who said they couldn't work the traffic that we do in the delegated function, thus should we experience Radar failure the airspace reverts to LACC and Bristol doesn't take the traffic on.

It is very simplistic to say well Bristol has the majority of aircraft movements thus it should have the airspace, Bristol however hasn't always had the majority of traffic and what if that situation should change.
The airspace provider and who it is delegated to isn't going to change so why even debate the point. We also work traffic currently well outside the Bristol 40 mile limit but as Chilli said we are centrally located within the airways system.

Bristol do not suffer because NATS manage the airspace in that area, I wish people would stop thinking of it as Cardiff doing the traffic and consider exactly what it is a delegated function ie London airspace.
As for Bristol having more up to date equipment, well they have just had a new tower and radar room so yes it is more up to date but our equipment is hardly out of the ark ( except for our headsets but that will changing we are assured soon) We also have the benefit of Cardiff radar which has excellent low level coverage in that area, something which Clee Hill doesn't.

This is not about one unit being better than the other, this is about hopefully Bristol coming under the NATS mantle

I forgot about Exeter, thought the area in question would be more centralised around the Severn Estuary but they certainly are a lot more busier than they used to be. Would a combined unit cover the whole south west area? What about the military users?

Chilli Monster: Are you suggesting Swanwick should do ALL the radar services for the whole UK including approach at the various airfields - that would be rather ambitious, remember how long it's taken to get things to where they are now!

Slotbuster: NATS are a big organisation and are bound to have more bureaucracy than a single regional airport but then that isn't a bad thing if it actually works. I would stick my neck out and say that the controllers at Bristol are actually in an excellent position to improve their lot, they just have to realise that change can be difficult - try and get involved as much as possible in the process to get your preferred result.

Quite nice to let people have a brief glimpse at what we do.

We have at Cardiff a UHF frequency, this means we work quite a few Military aircraft not least the fact we are the approach unit to a Military Airfield RAF ST Athan.
Military crossers of the airways have increased quite considerably since the increased delegated function.
At the moment we are centred on 40 miles and are unable to offer a radar service outside of that, Exeter is on the edge of the 40 miles. The increase in traffic out of their has certainly increased the workload and as is always the way there are always inbound or outbound aircraft at the same time as inbounds and outbounds out of Cardiff Bristol and Filton :)

In a stylised way - yes.

Before Swanwick was built the entire ATC map and idea behind service should have been re-written on a clean sheet of paper. Don't think in terms of what we have now (Swanwick) - more like 2, 3 or 4 facilities like it for the whole country.

It works overseas - why not here? (Especially considering the sheer physical size, or lack of it, of the UK).

Look at the trend of how NATS is going - if they get the contract, the chances are that the present controllers will be moving to the South coast (or Prestwick!?) to become TC Bristol (or TC Severn etc) .
Now.. if we could only get the airspace in and around EGDM from the military.....

WMD

I take it such centralisation is perceived as a bad thing? I'm sure for a start that the staff concerned wouldn't want to relocate. I'd imagine there would be much more of a requirement for increased areas of controlled airspace which would have much opposition.

Off topic, but isn't what chilli monster advocates similar to the environment that existed in ATC a few years back, with Eastern Radar, Penine Radar, Northern Radar etc? The authorities that be did away with that system under the auspices of improvement and modernisation.

Back on subject, it's bad news for those of us outside NATS as an acceptance decision by Bristol will deny us a chance at another decent job at a regional airfield. Where's my chance of an improved job now :ugh: I'm not likely to get taken on by NATS externally am I :(

be interesting to know what the terms are for Bristol, provision of service by NATS is normally reckoned to be much more expensive than 'inhouse' either NATS really want the deal and think costs can be cut enough to keep the cost to Bristol within reasonable bounds or Bristol reason its the only way to guarantee continous supply of suitably qualified ATCO's
would not be suprised at all to find NATS more aggresive in applying to take on ATC at other units!

Razor's edge....why not?

Oh to be away for a day and miss the fun..

Eastern me old mucker, yep it appears I've walked out of the frying pan into the fire. Maybe I'll get a set of keys for the asylum after all!! ;)

From rumours I've heard, it seems that NATS are a bit desperate to bring Brizzel into the fold. Certainly dropping the contract price by that much:ooh: would seem to indicate so.
Certain people make it sound like Cardiff is a shoe in to get a combined radar function for both units, but I'm not so sure. Let's just say I wouldn't rush down to Willy Hill's for the latest SP. There are arguments for and against both units taking the function and I'd prefer it to be here, natch. But some people make it sound as if just because Bristol is non-NATS now, that we couldn't handle a combined "doing area function as London, vectoring all the traffic in the west of Engerland and parts of the western darklands as well as Exeter etc etc blah blah......." Well I know there is a culture in NATS of "if they're non NATS then they wouldn't be able to cope", but quite frankly, most of the best ATCO's I've worked with have been non-NATS, either through choice or because they weren't very good at chatting up their OJTI's. Some of us work quieter non-NATS units and some of us work at very busy non-NATS units, but that doesn't neccessarily mean we couldn't work a very busy NATS workload. Especially for very big NATS wages!:ok:

from what I've read it seems that NATS is quite desperate to get Bristol, all this talk of dropping the contract price. Either they're now leaving something out of the deal, treating the whole thing as a loss-leader or just want to show to the world that they're able to get contracts at slightly larger units. Look out Newcastle and East Mids! (Bournemouth and Norwich in the bag yet?)

I'm sure that our colleagues at Bristol could handle the traffic, they're doing a great job at the moment. ....and for our Cardiff colleagues - you do a great job as well but you have to acknowledge you owe a lot to your busy neighbour accross the Severn otherwise you'd be twiddling your thumbs most of the time!

Further consideration I'm sure for Bristol is the upcoming requirements for ATS providers when 'European Single Sky' gets underway:uhoh: Big headaches all round :* Bl**dy Europeans:rolleyes: ATC provision contracted out = pain removal without paracetamol:D

Ah Standard back to the warm bossom of your beloved Nats. What a lovely warm feeling and you always spoke so highly of them!!
Maybe Ferrovial could do a " Buy one Get One Free " for them and we could both sort out our pensions!!

TR - I'm not as close to my pension as you, so I'm not just as worried about my advancing years.:ok:
As for NAZI, sorry, I mean NATS, I'm not sure they want me back after the last time, I did use some colourful expressions in my time there. Still, if they give jobs to eastern & co then there may be hope for me yet.:p
I thought BOGOF deals were only available in Tesco, but if it helps you get to Muckamore quicker then it might not be a bad idea.

This gave me a big laugh as well, thanks for that!
:O

Shouldn't it be Cardiff TAFCON

Or even - TAFFY TRACON!:p