as featured in the film "Pushing Sheep"!!:D

Was that the movie about Air Taffic?

Our employers have been looking at the possibility of contracting out ATC for several years now, and whilst they haven't dismissed the idea once and for all, they are very much of the mind that they would like to keep it "in - house";
They see advantages and disadvantages of contracting out as follows;
Disadvantages:
1 - NATS would charge significantly more for provision of the service than it currently costs.
2 - NATS would also want to take on the Tel's engineers as part of the contract, thereby increasing overall costs.
3 - Ultimately, NATS would want to remote the approach control function, leaving just tower atcos at the airport, and SSR and primary cover from the local NATS radar head is sufficiant for provision of a fully remoted service, and therefore there's no requirement for our own radar head and equipment at the airport. But, if for any reason, after 5 years the airport want to get rid of NATS, they have to remploy a substantial number of approach and tower rated atco's and reinstate all the equipment at significant cost. NATS would have us by the balls.
Advantages:
1 - We will have up to 5 retirements in the next 4 years, we don't train our own atco's, additionally, anyone can fall over at a medical. Only NATS can guarantee to make cover immediately available to cover at short notice.
2 - NATS can make new technology and equipment available as part of new developments and research, ultimately there would be a cost to the airport company, but this would be significantly less than if it was bought off the shelf, and staff would be trained on the equipment for more or less "nil cost".
3 - NATS have the in - house infrastructure and experience to manage and provide future installation and other projects which the airport would otherwise have to farm out to several different suppliers with the inherent delays and problems this may incur.

No doubt Serco would say that they could also provide all the advantages, but they wouldn't commit themselves in writing, NATS did.

When it comes down to it, money talks, and employing a contractor is always going to be more expensive than doing it yourself.
The only reason that NATS will not lose any of their current larger BAA contracts is because the airports would incur significant cost in employing their own ATC staff.
However, the service cost at Luton, Southampton, Farnborough and also when Manchester ATCC moves to McNerk, will be constantly under the sharp eye of the bean counters.

Yes, NATS definately are under instruction to aggressively market themselves as an ATC provider, but they are not going to do this for anyone if they won't make a profit, and Bristol won't employ them unless they see it to be a significant financial benefit to the airport company.

Cardiff has its own Secondary head, its a god send when the primary goes down I imagine, the clee cover is pretty poor. Maybe even a burrington feed would be better?? Exeter have it.

As far as people might not be up for relocation. All NATS Members that shoot through the forums will more than likely be aware that anything that is moved to Swanwick also attracts a band 5 pay, rather than a lower band. Who knows what Bristol would be banded. Based on Tower movements i'm guessing three ( Thats assuming NATS WIN the contract ). Thats a fairly hefty increase. Probably even more for any bristol guys and girls that moved to NATS and then subsequently to Swanwick.

I cant see the move to the south coast happening in the short term ( 5 or 6 years ) but longer than that, surely NATS would be foolish not too? Especially with the new course streaming?

Only ideas - what u recon??

TIO

P.S. - Cardiff TRACON???? shocking

Why not Gonzo? Because once Bristol goes with NATS, all ATCO recruitement will be done internally. No hope for outsiders like me:{

Can't see some of (if not most of) the Bristol controllers being too happy about moving to Cardiff or indeed Swanwick if NATS co-locate the Radar Room.

A bit like Turkeys voting for Christmas isn't it.

Take the Queen's sovereign and then choose between better pay but relocation to a radar room somewhere else or stay where you are, lose a skill by becoming Tower only and get payed less.

Hmm:hmm: Choices choices:rolleyes:

I can understand not wanting to move from Bristol, but NATS recruit externally too, you know!

Any truth in the rumour that the Spanish firm AENA are bidding for / buying Bristol and Cardiff airports?

AENA and Abertis have already successfully bid for the three TBI airports, Cardiff, Belfast and Luton.

This rumour is news to me, Vintage ATCO, but I did hear a Rumour that BRS's owners were taking a look at CWL some months ago, which raised a few interesting questions:confused:

Ranger 1

This may help

http://www.abertis.com/ing/index.htm

and this

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=153323


Do keep up! :D

This has all been very interesting, has a decision been made by Lulsgate yet? There's been no official news yet has there?

There might be more news on Friday...I believe that NATS are visiting for (in)formal chats with the staff........

Would that be via Filton then?...:p :E

Bristol Beware!
 

Careful buddies...NATS will want to peg your salaries and keep you under-the-heel whilst promising wonderful things. They will post in several layers of lap-dog managers and you'll wonder what hit you.
Agree to NOTHING without good union representation from Day One. Transitional union arrangements during transfer of Employer leave you at your weakest in negotiating.....whereas in reality your "agreement" is the strongest hand.
Remember that you are about to be hit by a slick glossy-brochure package from an organisation eager to profit from all the hard work of the last few years and Bristol's phenomenal expansion....why not ask them why you have no Regulated Airspace even though you have over 50,000 ATM's a year....Oh Sorry....they won't know?

"Remember that you are about to be hit by a slick glossy brochure package from an organisation eager to profit from all the hard work of the last few years....."
..........or maybe they've just come to their senses and realised we're just a fab bunch of guys who will be able to show the rest of the airports group a trick or two!

Roll on Friday 16:00, then we'll see the whites of their eyes!
:E

Oh to be back in the asylum!:}

Well 1600's been and gone. I wonder what was said, was it convincing?:hmm:

So it has, my goodness look at the time. Lots was said and I'm convinced by every bit of it.;)

Oh and a nice slick glossy brochure each as well, my aren't we the lucky ones. Didn't bring us any frisbees though.:hmm:

You must have got a free nats pen - Surely there are 21 pens, all exciting new destinations ........................

Merry Christmas?
 

An early Christmas present for 500 lads and lasses at Southampton; the current NATS boss of barely six months came to us from ALSTOM as you know, together with several of his henchmen to fill non-advertised posts. In their wake is a trail of destruction of company-wide proportion.
The new NATS HQ at Whitely was strategically placed between Swanwick and Southampton.....did I say strategically or co-incidentally?....can't remember......anyway with hindsight it was not necessary because the "500" refers to the number of brother workers thrown on the scrapheap a week before Christmas with the closure of the ALSTOM Rail engineering base at Eastleigh.
This week it is "aviation" and your jobs are safe because ATCO's are in short supply.......but think ahead brothers and sisters......the British Government does not have the same bale-out policy as our French cousins, who rescued ALSTOM to the tune of several £billion.
Down at Swanwick we just work and work, and absolutely nothing else....every common-sense recommendation for liaison visits and Fam flights is completely ignored.....we are just blobs on a staff graph on some-one's wall.
Welcome to NATS West Country buddies.

Whoa Neddy, we ain't been sectioned just yet!
Wait a few days before rolling out the welcome whip.

Seriously though Standard ...you always see the "bad" side of Nats ...did they offer ANYTHING to you guys at Bristol to change your mind? ...or will you be saddling up and moving elsewhere?

Of course they could always make room for a Filton console too!:uhoh:

eastern,

believe it or not, I don't think joining Nats is such a bad thing, but if that had been my only plan in the first place, I'd have latched on to you guys more when I was at the City. You'll just have to excuse my cynicism when I say that having been royally screwed by a half-witted and short sighted Nats management back in 1995 (albeit, one of many who were in the same boat), I'm not entirely convinced that this time they'll at least ask for a kiss first if they're planning to **** me again

But here's the thing, Bristol is the first unit/employer that I've worked for that I enjoy working for. They actually seem to care about their staff, rather than seeing Air Traffic as just a huge expense and legal encumbrance. Your ideas and input are asked for and appreciated, not stolen and used by a greasy pole climber. By and large we as a section are left to get on with it as the airport management realise that the ATCO's know more about Air Traffic than the management do. I'm afraid I can't apply all of that to all of my former employers. The unit is fairly well run, and unlike my past units, everyone pretty much gets on with everyone else.

Do I see the benefits of Nats, yes I do, but I also see downside which I can't go into here and now. Long term, as I said, it's not a bad idea but only if the status quo is retained, however circumstances can change and it could in 10 years time, prove to be a bad move. I wouldn't exactly say they said anything to change my mind because I know the organisation more than some at Bristol, but I just can't forgive Nats 100% for the treatment they meted out to me at a very low point in my personal life. Still, I picked myself up and over the last 9 years I've worked hard to get into the position where I am working at what I see as one of the top two best and busiest non-Nats units in the UK. At least in 2005, I would be joining as a valid ATCO rather than the latest in a long line of cannon fodder.

One or two of the others who have only ever worked here have asked if I think it is a good move and I have answered honestly.

As for me moving elsewhere, no, I'm going to stand and fight this time. Besides, Mrs Noise has told me that if I want to move again, it'll be via the divorce court. She's very happy here and jnr is at a fairly good school (I mean it's not on a par with Bangor Grammar but it's good as english comps go). Anyway, I like it here. Every town in England should have a resident Ulsterman to soak up the black stuff and terrorise the locals with his erratic driving. It didn't take me long to scare one of my workmates half to death on a liason visit. He didn't realise a Beemer could reach those speeds on Somerset's twisty roads! :E

Legs 11 - wash your mouth out with carbolic, you evil fool. what a horrid suggestion!:}

Eh Standard?
" ideas and input are asked for and appreciated, " that brings back memories, though as you know from first hand experience not very recent ones.
So is it a done deal then??

More news after tomorrow's management meeting I would think...:ok:

T R - Gypsy Queen seems to be as well informed as I am. No doubt I will be the last to know since I'm not back in until Wed morning.

Are they still not listening to you TR? Why not come over here and be listened to instead. You too could be in the warm and cosy Nats bosom before long. Talking of which, how is the honourable member for Muckamore these days?

Any ideas how this is going??

All has gone quiet since xmas - The office bods must be back at it by now??

TIO

I think you'll find, the major stumbling block at the moment is pensions. Not so much for joining the NATS one though, more for what they'll get on leaving a very good Bristol Airport one. Plus with 40 odd people leaving what is after all a small pension scheme, how will that scheme manage to support itself in the future - there's more than justATC to be considered there:uhoh:

Is the contract all sorted out now chaps? Rumour around the River Hamble is that your new boss is temporarily housed here until July when(s)he starts at EGGD. Our loss etc etc etc.

A I :} :} :} :} :}

A1
 

No vacancy notice then? Nod Nod Wink Wink!
When the music stops you can have....er....."Bristol".
Blast.....running out of seats.......write a memo....must take over more airports.

And there was me thinking that Cardiff's new lord and master was going to spread his wings and make Brizzy his main base of operations!:ok:

We hear the lawyers are poring through the contract at the moment. Ah well, nice idea while it lasted.:rolleyes:

Us come over to Bristol , Nah we have just bought this enormous new fridge so we can accommodate all the food for when all the Staff from Bristol move over to us at Cardiff :p

This contract thing is going on and on, apparently a new legal team started with NATS and view and deal with contracts very differently from how they were done in the past, about time it was sorted one way or the other though.

Maybe I should have said 'the lawyers are boring (us) over the contract. At this rate I'll be retired before I rejoin the fold.:zzz: :zzz:

flower - I can eat for Ireland, make sure it\'s a BIG fridge!:} Oh, and move it eastwards a bit...............about 20 miles eastwards.;)

Politics ahoy
 

Don't worry Cardiff buddies, do you think the Welsh Assembly will permit the control of traffic in Welsh airspace, and particularly in and out of Wales' premier airport, to be controlled from over the water?
I'd get the e-mail off double quick!!! [just in case they don't know]
Some-one mentioned a new legal team....check out the relevant CV's......a long history of....well.....involvement with the rail industry.....more rail buddies to the rescue.....were we that bad before?
Where are Owain Glyn Dwr and Twm Sion Cati when you need them?

Oi, stop it you lot, or I'll get the Witch of Wookey Hole onto you!:p

Hey Standard, That's a bit forward when talking of your new General Manager. She's taking flying lessons at the moment.

A I :\ :\ :\ :E :ok:

Ohmygod! Not on the new 'Nimbus 2005' ?:}

Hey Guys,

Has the contract been finalised yet?


A I

Now that's just a silly question, isn't it?:rolleyes: :p

NEXT!

And before you ask, the delay has been mainly down to the fact that the NATS solicitor was sick, apparently. I mean, how big is that bloody organisation and they only have one bloody solicitor!?
Something tells me we're about to be sucked into a farcical world.
Re-arrange these words............piss, brewery, organise, up etc etc:zzz:

That's NATS for you!! Any more news?

An interesting thread. As a NATS Area atco, yes you may get the feeling that NATS controllers think you couldn't hack it because you are non NATS blah blah blah. But to be honest, we only have to see what goes on at East Mids, Liverpool, Newcastle and Leeds to know that it's not the case ( I am sure the same can be said of Bristol). We have a good relationship with the non NATS airports we deal with ( I hope ), and I guess you are always going to get some pillock who thinks that he/she is superior because they are NATS. I can assure you though that the majority of us do not think that - or is it just me?