Height Issue
 

Hello,

I was wondering if any of the current NATS employees would be able to help me. I applied to NATS on the 2nd August 2002 and passed through the selection process, medical and security checks. On 3rd February 2003 I was offered a place on the course starting on 6th September 2004.

After waiting almost 3 years, NATS contacted two weeks ago I was asked down to attend a health and safety assessment at LATC and the collage.

This week I received a letter from HR saying they are withdrawing me from the training course and terminating my offer of employment as I’m too tall (I’m 6ft 10).

I was wondering if there were any other NATS employers that would be kind enough to let me know if there are any other tall people within NATS via email or PM.

Has this Heath and safety assessment been carried out on anyone else? Or has anyone else experienced the same problem?

Also does anyone know of any good private training courses?

Thank You for you time.

Ben

I can't offer any practical help, being a mere 6'2", but I'm absolutely disgusted that you can be excluded for such a rediculous reason. If you're capable of holding a Class One medical certificate, that should be all that matters on the health front.
NATS had a wheelchair-bound trainee while I was a student ATCO and while it's absolutely right that he shouldn't be discriminated against, a tall person is much less of a H&S risk than a tall person.
My advice is get a good lawyer and fight like crazy for your rights.
All of I sudden, I'm very glad that as of yesterday I don't work for NATS!

My jaw drops in shock...

I agree with the previous post... take them to court...

It's blatent discrimination... I can't believe it, I really can't.

I hope you've got this in writing...

I can't think of a single reason why they would refuse you, even on H&S grounds...

Unbelieveable.

bri.

Hi Ben,

I heard this news from seperate channels and I am a bit shocked to hear about it espicially as you were actually geared up for a college postion.

I hope you can get this resolved to your satisfaction.

Regards

Craig

I have been to lawyers, solicitors etc and currently there is nothing in UK or European law to say that this is wrong. So the long and short of it is that I have no legal case against them.

After waiting three years doing temping jobs etc I have no legal leg to stand on.

The best they can come up with is sexual discrimination based on the fact that men are generally taller than women and therefore I have been discriminated against. Buts it’s a very very very weak case and the costs to fight it will probably be more than I can claim.

Current discrimination law only covers, sexual orientation, gender, race and disabilities.

Ben

Ben,

This is utterly appalling. You have my full support as you know.. but it does no harm to put it on here either.

I'm clutching at straws at the moment but what about the Equal Opportunities Commission... and the European Court of Human Rights... (the latter is probably a bit extreme).

Many years ago the police used to have a height restriction. In later years it was considered to be discriminatory to smaller people and as such the height rule was abolished.

I can see no reason why this should not be applied in the reverse. You ARE being discriminated against and their handling of your case shows total incompetence. How tall were you when you went for the interviews and selection.. ? I would figure probably about what you are now.. in which case they knew then.. so why does it take until now for them to start making excuses.

Good luck.. and IF this is what you really set your heart on doing... don't give up. Stand up and fight for it :ok:

Well, this certainly is a new crowning achievement for NATS recruiting.

Maybe Gonzo et al will correct me, but we had a guy on our course who was easily over 6 foot 6 (Mr P, you're not floating round here are you?) Have you asked NATS what their official cut off height is? And ask them to point the policy out in black and white.

I suggest you get a second legal opinion as that doesnt seem correct.

The British legal system is called "reasonable".
ie; "reasonable" grounds for rejection, beyond "reasonable" doubt, etc, etc. And if its not already gone through the courts, then going through them sets whats called a "prescedence".

It seems that the police height issue may have already set that prescedence - so if you want this career - and believe me, its the best career ever, get this sorted.

This is by far a very unreasonable basis for cancelling your employment.

And just a thought... [quick laugh to end on]

You'd probably be going to Swannick, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but Swannick's ceilings are about 50ft up in the air.

Its not like your going to be a pilot in a finite about of space.

Anyhoo. Enjoy the weekend as best you can.

Any help I can offer, please PM me.
[I'm sure that goes for lots of us on PPRuNe.]


Bri

Ben

I am sure I am right in saying that you have the support and sympathy of all of us. I am disgusted to read of your experience.

Another angle might be breach of contract on the part of NATS. How can they offer you employment and then susequently withdraw it? What is their precise reason? How is it that you passed a medical and no "problem" was noticed - apart, perhaps from you banging your head on the ceiling?

Precendent - there is a bloke on a current course who, I think, is of very similar height. If he is out there, perhaps he will respond, either here or privately.

Another thought - although, presumably, you are not a member already, could the NATS ATCOs' union, Prospect, take up the case?

We are all with you - this is disgraceful.

Best wishes

2 sheds

Hi guys,

Thank you for your kind words.

I asked a friend to ring HR three days afterwards and ask about applying for an Air Traffic post. He said he was over 7ft and was told that wouldn't be a problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NATS HR really do leave a lot to be desired!!!! There’s nothing in there application forms, like there is if you wanted be a pilot etc....

Would anyone be able to give me some contact details for Prospect?

Oh and Bri when I went to Swanick I caught my head on the bit that slopes down!!!!!!

Cheers.

Ben

There may be some units where the desk furniture would make it difficult for you to work without straining something or ending up with a bad back, but I don't see that as an excuse for not hiring you in the first place. Some units will be more ideal than others for someone of your stature and this could be taken in to account surely.

I would certainly fight the decision all the way.

Good luck.

If they have cited "health and safety" I'm guessing that it is a furniture issue.... constantly bending to see radar... But I'm only guessing. We do have a Human factors department, so it will probably be a decision from that dept.... I don't know the current student that someone mentioned, but I can't remember any exceptionally tall students at LTCC over the years....

Mr Chips

If you are as tall as you say you are then I can see ergonomic problems. However if NATS have offerred you a job then I think legally they have to comply. If you were applying to fly as a pilot then you would be too tall. The only problem that I can see is that you're height would make you too tall to see the radar screen, i.e. you're head would be too high. This is not your problem, it is a problem for NATS and you should not be discriminated for your height.
Where is the Flying Lawyer for advice.
If you do get the course then please do area control as we still need control towers.

Further to last and to the latest contributions, if some Jobsworth is worried about you sueing NATS when you strain your back or bump your head, surely you signing a simple disclaimer would nail that one. Either way, if it has been handled in the way you describe, it seems despicable.

Ben,

I didn't realise you were supposed to be starting in Sept, that's even worse than I thought initially.

I received your email and will do my best to find out the info. I had heard from someone that the college was having to change certain fixtures to accomodate the person we were talking about, I wonder if that caused the sudden change of decision?

All the best.

hc003540
 

Was there a height qualification on the original job description?
I can't believe what I'm reading, is this some kind of wind-up? NATS had better be very careful, I know of at least three major H&S violations at Swanwick concerning disabled access and similar. What was the sloping bit you refer to?
Send a copy file of all communication to your MP, and if no reply within 14 days send to a Daily Paper; tell your MP that is what you intend to do.

I was thinking "Disability Discrimination Act", but a quick look did not reveal whether overly tall people could be considered as suffering from a disability within the meaning of the Act.

Flying Lawyer, where are you?

Further comment from me is unnecessary - it has mostly been said already.

Ben - however, clearly someone in NATS has decided that your height is a disability. Follow the logic from there....!

You could always try appearing in a wheelchair (to effectively lower your height) and demand to be accommodated.

Anyone out there able to contact Flying Lawyer direct? (Ben, for your info that is not just his handle).

Disability Discrimination Act 1995 may be worth a read, and indeed, may be of interest to others.

hc003540,

I did respond in the Medical Section but, to reiterate, Health & Safety and Disability Access / Discrimination is my field.

There are some questions / answers to be raised but at this stage I can only do so through PMs.

Drop me a PM and I'll get back to you.

Best Regards,

2close

hey mate
you should forget nats..they obviously arent a company that will respect you even if you did get taken in for training...why dont you apply to eurocontrol,they offer testing every month and are activly seeking new trainees twice a year..it would do no harm to apply anyway..its an absolute disgrace how you have been treated and you should not take it lightly..
best of luck
dan

Hi,

Have you tried talking to Guild of Air Traffic Controllers www.gatco.og ? You may not be a member, but I'm sure they would be very interested in your case and may be able to help.

Why not sue NATS on 2 counts?

Firstly go after them for discrimination because of your height.

Secondly, im sure it was very painful when you hit your head. I assume that as you managed to hit your head that there was no 'Mind your Head sign'. No sign, they are legally liable for your personal Injury - Same principle as slipping when there is no ' Wet floor' sign.

Was the Job offer worded as being "Subject to the outcome of the HSE assesment"?

Refusing you for their reasons appears to me as being the 'height' of incredulousness! :D :D :D

TIO

Just to update you guys I have taken it to a laywer and we are currently looking very closely at all aspects of the thoughts and comments that where made in this thread.

If anyone has had any joy in contacting any other tall employees within NATS then that would really help at this stage.

And could anyone PM a contact for Prospect that would also help greatly.

Cheers guys for all your support.

Ben

Website is WWW.prospect.org.uk

Hope thats some help, am sure there is a contact us link somewhere.

TIO

This is all looking very encouraging.. keep at it Ben :ok:

Let me guess, the guy who made this decision was a twisted looking runty guy, peeved you could see his bald spot? Or did he spot you copping an eyefull of his missus's cleavage (best asset of being tall)?

I can't see why ATC would not be open to Robert Wadlow. Except he's dead, so would require a fairly quiet posting...

I've worked with immensely tall people and fair dinkum midgets here and don't see any distinction between these and 'normal' people in the job. If they can use the bog and reach the buttons they're in.

Sue the barstards, you wouldn't be the first to win.

You'd be an asset on the basketball team too.

Hi Ben;

I was appalled to read about your situation. I would guess (like the others) it's some sort of willful misreading of the H&S at work act and its possible implications.

I was with the HF unit in Bournemouth and I would be surprised if they had anything to do with it.

I would probably go as high with the issue as possible - this is probably just something that someone's got on their mind at the moment and they might be open to some pressure from elsewhere in the company.

If NATS is going to go that way, I still have permanent scars on my knees from the old horizontal radar displays at LATCC and must have slammed my forehead into the top of the door frames at Bournemouth at least 3 times (I can't remember any others) and I'm only 6'5"! Are they going to ban people over 6'4" from working down at the College?

ah.. so thats why there are dents in the door frame at the entrance to the B block corridor by reception :} :ouch:

I can't believe I got told off by the forum code because all I wanted to reply to you was:

:ok:

:8

Just spoke to a friend who used to deal with discrimation as part of his work, and this would actually be covered by the disability discrimination act, however, Guess wat lovely company is included under the list of exempt companies - U guessed NATS. Might make ure situation a bit more tricky but let us Know!

TIO

I am sat in my office in the tower right now and i have a nice comfy chair. This chair has a lever on the right hand side which when sat on can be pulled to lower the chair, and when unoccupied, can be pulled to make the chair raise. As i am only 5"8 i have the chair on full height. There is 12cm between fully extended and fully "sunk" (as such) which is round about 5 inches, do NATS not have chairs like these!?! If they did it would bring you down to a good 6"5 which im sure is the height of many ATCO's working for NATS. I feel sick at the thought of the situation that you are in, its utterly disgraceful, especially having been through the entire recruitment process.

Hope all works out for you

Too tall??
 

Heard last night that the tallest student at the college is no longer employed by NATS as of yesterday. Could this be linked??:confused:

That doesn't bode well for the next tallest person...........

height
 

isnt the head of training tall!!!!:ooh:

It may also be possible that they didn't make the required standard. :confused:

I don't think we should allow people more of a chance to pass just because of gender, race, disability, or whatever. Set the standard (which comes ultimately from the Regulator) and then all individuals are given the same target. Everyone has an equal chance to let their ability demonstrate whether they can make the grade or not.

This is unrelated to hc003540's specific case since he has unfortunately not got to that stage of the game yet. But in terms of ATC examinations I would expect to see him being given no preference, and conversly no prejudice, because of his height.

Ben, very sorry to hear what's happened. It's an absolute crock. Makes me wonder what exactly they were thinking, and where they got this Health & Safety rubbish from? Especially when I know of at least 2 Rated ATCO's in the IAA who are over 6'8" tall, one of whom I trained with and know personally!!

Too Tall ??
 

I can't believe that NATS aren't jumping at the chance to employ tall guys. Think of the cost saving benefits - give them all tower jobs - but don't worry about building a tower :)

The tall guy at the college was sacked for being too tall. He didn't fail any of the assesments as far as I'm aware. Unofficially, he had a big arguement with one of the instructors in the middle of a class about vortex wake. From what I heard he wasn't really keeping his head down (excuse the pun). He'd already had a written warning. I only found out about this today, and thought the excuse that he was too tall was a bit of a get out clause, but now I'm not so sure.

So, will tall people be the next addition to the vortex wake table?

If so, what category will they come under?

I know a few atco's who are approaching 17000kg, but none who've actually achieved or surpassed it.... :E :p