Is there really a shortage.......
 

Reading all the posts about who is going where and why it occurs to me that I am confused as to wheather there is an ATCO shortage or not.
If there is can anyone offer advice on how to get the employers to acknowlege the fact and be forthcomming with reasonable,grown up, terms and conditions.
We all like a winge but I would be intrested on the learned companies view on the future with regards to pay, or should we all just keep our heads down incase we are seen as a disruptive influence and the free tea is removed.

AAK 10

Do a search on Google under air traffic controller shortage and you might get some firm data. Found this Eurocontrol survey from 1998, but I am sure with more time and diligence you could find a more up to date survey ....

Eurocontrol Survey

Last I heard shortages at
EGMC, EGMH, EGHH, EGBE, EGHD, EGKB
Then if Finingley gets going approx 6 plus 6 for the radar at EGGP.
Contoller shortage naaaaaaa

<<<Last I heard shortages at EGMC, EGMH, EGHH, EGBE, EGHD, EGKB>>>

LTCC??

It could be that the full effect of a 'shortage' will become apparent in time. At the moment there is no surplus, thats for sure.

I have found that employers will admit within managerial circles that a shortage exists but will play down the potential problem at staff level. Obviously that is because any admission on their behalf provides a catalyst for higher salary demands and staff loss to higher paid units. If I were allowed to raise salaries significantly then I am sure I could poach staff from other units. However, that will be the last course of action that most managements will take.

The crunch will come when some units have to start restricting traffic flow.

Regards

I reckon around 16 or so vacancies that I know of around the non-state airfields.. particularly whe Finningly kicks in..

oh.. and see Prestwick have just advertised.. 17 then..

Look closely at the Prestwick ad - they didn't specify numbers, they just said Controllers (plural)

How many vacancies?

I've heard that there has already been a deluge of cvs for the FNY posts?

Heathrow Director



<<<Last I heard shortages at EGMC, EGMH, EGHH, EGBE, EGHD, EGKB>>>

LTCC??


Didn't mention NATS ,thought it was just about non state, Nats are always short!

SATCO Biggin Hill start poaching everyone else is, ( well maybe )

Question for all, How many years ago was it that units were offering a substantial sum of cash to stay put? Could units be heading that way again? If these Airports want to play with the BIG boys then management are going to have to recognise an ATCOs worth, if not in salary a decent package etc

Nite flite 01 CVs don't mean good ATCO's

Of course you should be disruptive dont let the b:mad: rds grind you down anarchy is the only way forward. Management will screw us for every penny they can get away with.

In the US there is a controller shortage (the govt. says otherwise of course.) but as usual, there is NO shortage of applicants. We have them waiting in droves to get hired. The govt. is just saving money and not hiring anyone right now. We hope to see about 600 to 800 get hired in the October time frame, but I am not holding my breath.

regards

Scott

Anyone heard rumours about Coventry handing out bonuses to keep their staff ?

Looks like the rot is setting in already.

I watch this scenario with deep interest and a wry smile. Welcome to the non state world.

SB

EGBE " Bonus" believed to be 1k. Take tax off that and what have you got- an insult.

These posts are all good stuff but the main question is still unanswered - how is effective negotiation possible when Airport Managers are still in denial over a shortage and will not consider reasonable terms and conditions?
AAK10

Yellow Plane.

Make that 20 then I believe PK are after two and check out Flight Int next week for two more.

Ocean Wun Z

Effective negotiation is destroyed by inexperienced or part rated Atco`s so desperate for jobs or positions close to home that they will take whatever they are offered competitive or not. Things aren`t helped by some old timers who don`t give a damn about pay or conditions for new starts as long as they`re unaffected.

Again, the same arguement crops up. Airlines/Airports are run by Accountants who have no idea about operational matters, nor do they have the foresight to budget for future staffing. I forsee within the next couple of years that some airports will have to either spend loads of money training staff as there will not be any controllers around or they will have to limit the services provided to the airlines. The latter is the favourite due to the inept management policies. Another way around the staff shortage would be for the government to step in and say "hang on, what's going on with our aviation industry. Why do we have such a shortage of qualified staff". Unfortunately this will not happen and the industry will still be run by financial idiots and any shortage will be dealt with on reaction rather than prediction.

Tower Ranger-your argument about 'old timers' sounds familiar, and I will say the same as I say to those at my unit complaining-what are the existing staff supposed to do to prevent new comers from accepting a contract on less pay and leave?-go on strike to stop someone from taking the job?-its not an ideal situation, but while managment can fill those positions it will not change
people that take those jobs knowing the score, get trained up and then spend all their time complaining grate just a little!

Missioncontrol if you read unable to PM or e-mail. address please
AAK10

Add at least one more to that list....
 

After much debate, I have just about convinced my Board of our need to recruit 1 extra ATCO with effect from April next year.

I'll need a fully rated ATCO, but with a salary currently under £40K on offer, I don't expect to be innundated with CV's....

Almost Prof

I agree with you entirely,if you and I were looking to get a start on the ladder we`d have to take whatever was offered. My point is that some people forget that they started at the bottom and are all too willing to bargain away holiday entitlement, salary and conditions for those further down the food chain just to maintain their own status quo.

Personally I will never forget how I got here and I do my best to improve things for those that follow on. It frustrates me that some people still have the attitude that "I had to do that therefore everyone after me will have to do the same" as it shows not only a lack of respect for fellow controllers but a lack of understanding for the way not only our industry but society has changed.

Mats3 - I hope you`re not looking for a radar rating sub 40k next April!!

Didnt seem to be much of a shortage when I was ADC unvalidated...................

Think MC have recently recruited. Wouldnt bother unless you have APR.

There seems to be a shortage at some units requiring APR or in some cases APC, but unfortunately few with ADC tickets.

... and now Teeside and Belfast ...

...and Liverpool! Finningley now officially too.. how many vacancies does that make I wonder?:hmm:

I believe inverness are advertising as well at the mo....
:D

Maybe more of us should apply and when offered a new position, go to management and ask "what are you going to do to keep me?"

Just a thought. I know of people who've jumped ship simply because they felt they weren't valued as staff members. Personally, I'd prefer a wad of folding.

Hey Chrisf
Where is the Inverness vacancy advertised? Looked in the usual places and can't find it.
Ta

with so many vacancies about just what is an acceptable salary for a fully rated adc/apr controller (non nats).

ATCO shortage?
 

Guess the word "acceptable" is infinitely dependent upon circumstances. What is acceptable to one job applicant may not be to another. Similarly, the ability of all airports to pay ATCOs big dosh should never be taken as a given: they don't all have the same amount of revenue coming in. It's oh so easy to bash accountants and airport managers but they too have to make sure their airports stay in business, keeping shareholders, customers and staff happy.

There are fully qualified ATCOs out there who are actively looking to switch jobs and locations, for sure, but it's up to ATS managers to ensure they get the right people. Simply having a current licence with ticks in the appropriate boxes is absolutely no guarantee of getting that vacant post:
"attitude", "enthusiasm", "effort" and "background/cred." count for plenty these days, I assure you.

Ab-initio training costs may be prohibitively high too for many non-NATS units, especially if they "take a punt" on a candidate, rather than having them screened professionally. That said, as an industry, we've got to bite the bullet and invest in new starters. We can't go on poaching off each other for much longer, I suspect.

According to the FAA Administrator Blakely over 5,000 U.S. controllers will be eligeble to retire in 2005, and this number increases drastically up to 2010 which is when the controllers that were hired after the 81 strike reach mandatory retirement.

Mike
NATCA FWA

Available, Mike. Don't start that " only US citizens" crap, again.

And Australia Is different in what way...
 

Ferris I would suggest you have more chance of winning a green card in the lottery than getting citizenship downunder.

Not that I'm complaining .......

I disagree. There are lots of imports in oz. Certainly easier than the US process. How do you keep current for 3 years? Or do you just pick it up again? I wouldn't like to try that at my age.;)

Any jobs going there?

Airport to Close???????
 

Have read and heard from several sources that due to lack of ATCOs airports in the UK face closing for periods next year. When you consider Finningley/Liverpool are struggling to find controllers and are poaching from other units yet still face problems in validating these before the projected start time next year, is it wise for companies to be investing in Finningley, is it wise for customers to even consider using Finningley.

This isn't just a problem at Finningley but is happening all over. Especially at a unit on the south coast which could be forced to close for an extended period.

Finningley/Liverpool are struggling to find controllers ( says who ):} :}

I would definately do an ADC rating if the CAA allowed the self study route (as they used to). It's a huge financial risk for people to leave a job, spend c£20k and not to be guaranteed a job at the end of it - especially with a young family.
The shortage of ATCOs at non NATS units is likely to get far worse as NATS closes the door on issuing ADC ratings to those chopped during the Appr/Radar course.
I've suggested via GATCO that FISOs, (perhaps with several years experience), should be able to either self study, or do a shorterned ADC course. This would provide a new route into the ATC world, provide new ATCOs and attract people to the FISO role - what do others think?

This is this thread part 2.

I agree there is certainly no surplus now but do you want that to be the case? Over the past 20 years or so ATCO salaries at most units have increased by much more than the rate of inflation, solely due to market forces in retaining and recruiting staff. The one sure way to enable managers to drive down wages and cut benefits is to have a pool of qualified guys down the local job centre.
I'm not saying it is desireable for a unit to be seriously undermanned, but it is a double edged sword.

When Liverpool took on their last two ATCO's I believe only one of them had Radar. Maybe it was planned that way or maybe there arent enough radar ATCO's. Then again maybe only one applied as the t&c's arent that great.

Ferris
 

Just out of interest what imports are you talking about? Apart from the ones from about 8 Years ago - which were sponsored by the CAA or DofA I dont know a whole lot of recent imports...

Of course I could be wrong - was once before ;)

TT

Ferris,

I didn't set the rules, the Bush's cronies did. Management has this pipe dream of being able to do more with fewer controllers, the staffing situation at many facilities is preventing controllers from being able to transfer to busier faciliities, and with no one in the pipe line the situation isn't going to get any better.

Mike
NATCA FWA

and I see that Real Time Consultants have advertised for ATCOs for several clients? Wonder where they are?

So, how many vacancies now I wonder? 25? Any advances on 25?