Class G airspace info.
 

Was looking at ICAO rules for classes of airspace and for G couldnt see anything about DTI (directed traffic info).
Is this provided or not provided usually ?

Not sure what you mean by DTI - not a term I've seen? What part of the world are you using it? Is it locally defined?

In Oz, we generally have class G up to A085 or F125 in the more remote areas.
if IFR in that airspace the ANSP provides DTI (but not seperarion) with other IFR. It is mandated this be provided, it is not on a workload permitting basis.
Sometimes with the aid of surveillance coverage and sometimes without.
Is this DTI service to IFR in G provided in most countries ?

Never heard of it in NZ. Mutual traffic information is provided outside controlled airspace, and that's all.

OK, confirming in NZ in G airspace traffic information IFR to IFR must be provided, it is mandatory ?
How high does G go in NZ ?

I think in the UK this would simply be referred to as traffic info. In class G there is no requirement to pass traffic information but the rulebooks also says 'Notwithstanding the minimum service requirements associated with each airspace classification, the primary objective of air traffic services is to prevent collisions between aircraft (SERA.7001(a)). In support of this objective, on any occasion a controller considers it necessary in the interests of safety, traffic information and, where appropriate traffic avoidance advice, shall be provided. Pilots are responsible for collision avoidance (SERA.3201) and should be aware of the existence of factors that might adversely affect the ability of a controller to detect a collision hazard and provide timely and accurate traffic information, and when surveillance-based ATS is being provided, traffic avoidance advice'.

There is no Class G in oz. It is Class F (look at the services provided) and merely called Class G.

So, no, in ICAO compliant places (such as where I work in the middle east) there is no DTI in Class G.

Take a look at ICAO Doc 4444 para 8.11 entitled 'The use of Radar in the Flight Information Service'..
Not officially done in the UK since about 1977 but several European countries eg France still provide this service.

Somewhere in Section 8 of PANS-ATM and also the GM to SERA.7002 (in Europe) traffic information and advice on avoiding action shall be provided to IFR flights in uncontrolled airspace.

So does that mean that class G in the sandpit is quite a low upper limit with another class of cta above it (E,C,A) ?

Is it because Class G in Oz is not compliant with ICAO in that it provides DTI and is actually a more serviced airspace block the reason why it goes as high as A085 or F125 ?

There is a lot of talk currently about Oz having to adopt worlds best practice (USA style with E down to 1500agl !), but this appears to disregard the fact the Oz G is not like other countries and hence the argument doesn't really stack up in my mind on that basis.

Why don't they call the Oz G by the F nomenclature if it is that ?

To anyone familiar with the US FAA NAS rules, could you advise if there are any mandated requirements on what is provided to IFR flights in Class G airspace ?

Don't know if you've been reading this column much but there isn't a lot of Class G in the USA ; I understand it's mostly at least Class E with a base of either 800ft agl ot 1200ft agl and where there is Class G, no ATS is available, the much vaunted 'VFR Flight Following' only being provided in Class E.

No ATS in G provided in U.S. ? which I guess is why there is only a very narrow vertical band of that airspace ?

So the question is, if there was a DTI provided in G as in Oz how high could it go to ?

Is it possible the Oz variation on G with IFR provided DTI on other IFR and VFR when practicable is in fact already worlds best practice given its traffic levels ?

Curious, do you have a link to the Oz AIP regarding this? Or other sources.

Sounds like an amalgamation of ICAO Class F and G classifications.

“Class F. IFR and VFR flights are permitted, all participating IFR flights receive an air traffic advisory service and all flights receive flight information service if requested.
Note.— Where air traffic advisory service is implemented, this is considered normally as a temporary measure only until such time as it can be replaced by air traffic control. (See also PANS-ATM, Chapter 9.)
Class G. IFR and VFR flights are permitted and receive flight information service if requested.”

http://skyrise.aero/wp-content/uploa...c-services.pdf

From Oz AIP GEN.........


3.3.7.2 In Class G airspace, a traffic information service is provided to
IFR flights about other conflicting IFR and observed VFR flights
except:
a. An IFR flight reporting taxiing or airborne at a non-controlled
aerodrome will be advised of conflicting IFR traffic that is not
on the CTAF; and
b. An IFR flight inbound to a non-controlled aerodrome will be
advised of conflicting IFR traffic until the pilot reports
changing to the CTAF.

There are services available specific to UK Class G airspace; as I said above, the UK complied with ICAO procedures before about 1977 but this has now evolved into the following known generically as Flight Information Services (just a precis to avoid boring you):-
Basic Service - No requirement for the aircraft to be identified on radar; may be provided by ATC or by Flight Information Service Officers (FISOs) at airfields or ATCCs by passing details of known conflicting traffic; in many cases this information may be generic eg warning the pilot of notified intense air activity on his planned route.
Traffic Service - Aircraft is identified and is passed information about conflicting traffic seen on radar both known and unknown which may pass within 5nm horizontally or 3000ft or less vertically if showing an altitude readout.
De-confliction Service - pilot is warned about conflicting traffic as above and is offered avoiding action via a change of heading.
That as I said is just a precis; there are detailed 'ifs' and 'buts' in UK national instructions published by the UK CAA.

Thanks Chevvron.

How does a pilot in UK G know which of the services they are getting , (basic,traffic,deconfliction) ? Is it marked on maps what is avbl where ? or is it up to the pilot to request what is wanted ?

Pilot request and controller agreement/confirmation (requested service will usually be provided subject to workload and one or two other things) - sometimes called the contract between aircraft and ATS.

In the context of the original post, that is rather misleading. The (UK-specific) requirement is..
, but, apart from permitting generic information on known aerial activity, also specifies...
2 s

In Japan Class G, IFR traffic are not permitted. Having said that, Class G exists only at relatively low altitudes.

Not only Japan, I understand IFR in Class G is not permitted in many countries.
In the UK, a lot (possibly even 'the majority') of IFR training is carried out in Class G especially by military aircraft.

Judging by the responses there doesn't appear to be many (if any) jurisdictions where IFR in Class G are provided a mandated DTI (directed traffic information) service.
Would it therefore be correct to say that the Class G Oz rules provide one of the highest Class G service levels currently in operation in the world ?

I've been looking at the concept for "directed traffic information", and correct me if I'm wrong, it's traffic information provided by the ATS unit handling the G airspace?

In that case, Greenland has class G below FL195, IFR is allowed but has to be on flightplan and in contact with the ATS unit, a Flight Information Centre, can be on VHF or HF outside VHF coverage. FIC will then provide traffic information between IFR flights according to set minima, less than 1000FT, 20 minutes crossing track, 20 minutes same track, 15 minutes opposite track etc.... it's a non surveillance airspace, though there is work on ADS-B satellite coverage. Pilots are ofcourse obligated to advise changes to flightpath, position reports etc. IFR flights are also required to file flight plans.

Only thing, there is no traffic information between IFR and VFR, simply because you can fly VFR without flightplan and radio contact with the unit. Though it will be given if known.

Thanks "jm", yes that Greenland set-up sounds similar to Oz Class G, but in Oz the upper level of G is A085 over the high population areas and F125 in the sparsely populated areas.
Also what may be a difference is that the Class G services are provided by ATC who also have other airspace Classes to manage and be responsible for within their volumes, is Greenland the same ?

No, Greenland has only the Flight Information Centre handling all traffic below FL195. Above FL195 traffic is handled by Reykjavík ACC from Iceland, and is ofcourse controlled.

There is always the option of setting up a flight information service "sector" in an area control centre, so one staffing is the ATCO's handling controlled airspace, and another is flight information service officers handling the class G.

Tks jm,

In Oz we disbanded the seperate Flight Service functions about 20 years ago and the Class G is now done by the ATC who also has the airspace above.

The handful of staff still linked to that previous function now run the 3rd party HF (International & Domestic) comms and a SARTIMEs system with no airspace responsibilities.

Am wondering if anybody knows of a country where the ATCs managing all or any of Classes A to E airspace also manage the underlying G airspace ?
Does this only happen in Oz ?

I wonder how many other countries work without planners/coordinator positions regularly.

Not to mention how many countries use the Air Traffic Specialist/Assistant roles to perform planner/coord type roles.

10JQKA (interesting username, like a vehicle plate with lots of interpretations...), what is the point of this thread? Are you simply seeking a few pieces of info as to how Class G is applied in different jurisdictions or is this all leading somewhere specific?

Relates to the pros and cons of some airspace classification change proposals doing the rounds currently in Oz as discussed on this thread on another forum.

https://www.pprune.org/pacific-gener...e-changes.html

Is anyone aware of an ICAO airspace specification which covers the rules applying to an "AFIS" (Aerodrome Flight Information Service) or an "SFIS" (Surveillance Aerodrome Flight Information Service) in G airspace ?

You might find something in the ATS Planning Manual, although I don't think it's been updated recently, and IIRC there was a Circular on AFIS although, again, I think the information is a touch dated.

There was work being done on an ICAO Manual of AFIS (that would include information on the use of surveillance) to replace Circular 211. Unfortunately, it's been stalled for a few years now. The UK CAA is also doing some work on the use of surveillance in AFIS, based on the use of cooperative sources.

What's your specific question(s)?