Kids controlling at JFK
 

Lead story on NBC Today is two controllers at JFK in the sh1t for allowing a little child to give take-off clearance etc to departing flights.

;) Possibly the clearest instructions given at JFK in the whole day ;)

Hi Guys,

I was wondering when there would be a post about this sooner!

Am a fan of the dude who brought the kid up and gave him a "taste" of the action.

I am sure it inspired him. Good on him too!

Read what the rest have to say on this post here:

Child directs airplanes over radio transmissions at JFK airport

Now please tell me he didn't get fired over this.

Regards,
JFK.

also on R&N

to be fair it was one kid and seems to be under close supervision

Too bad that the kid is going to cost the loss of his dad's career.

happenesd last month

JFK Airport: Boy Directs Air Traffic Control, Caught on Tape - ABC News

In R&N it seems to be developing into a controller bashing session:ugh:

:eek: I was only 19 when I validated in Mil Area Radar - does that classify me as a kid controlling :E

Not the cleverest thing to do, iMO.

It makes you wonder what Management disciplines are in force. I know it's "sort of cute" but it's staggeringly unprofessional. Or at least it would have been in my day.

I think it may be fairer to say the chap has cost himself his own career. I doubt the child was acting on his own volition.

Oh, I think it still is. Amusing, but also astonishing!

I'm sure I'll get some responses to this from over the pond, but isn't this just a rather poorly judged extension of the Americans' penchant for folksy, non-standard, and non-ICAO compliant RT? When I've flown there it's been really hard to make the switch from the folksy to the
properly professional (when that happens). Little things like the US habit of always saying "twelve sixty four" instead of the ICAO standard "one two six four" are a perennial irritation over here (Europe) too.

Having said that, the US has the best ATC system in the world in terms of the incident rate per 10,000 hrs.

I am reminded of the TV documentary some years ago where a bearded, lumberjack-shirted ground controller at JFK was interviewed on camera WHILE CONTROLLING IN LVPs, speaking to camera in between instructing taxi-ing aircraft which were lost in the fog and didn't know where they were. Amazing! Sacking offence in the UK for sure.
NS

N/S
 

"Twelve sixty four" is perfectly acceptable in the US. US still uses FAA Order 7110.65S, 2-4-20a and not the ICAO doc. you mentioned. It is a habit as it's a requirement.

Vector 361 - good news for the "FAA Order 7110.65S, 2-4-20a and not the ICAO doc".

International has never been a strong point for you guys, has it? How is the Rest of the Planet supposed to cope when they fly into US airspace?

At the end of the day, when a trainee first turns up and knows nothing about what they do, they plug in with an instructor and the instructor tells them everything to say. Aside from an age gap, what's the difference?
If you know about how ATC and ATC training works, then you know there is no difference. If you don't know this, then you are not qualified to comment on this subject. I can assure you that some brand new trainees are just as green as this kid, so it was not an issue. :cool:

Politically, it may seem a less-than-great idea (if nothing else other than knowing how ignorant and dramatic the media are) but in terms of pure fact, it's a non-event. That should be the end of discussion. :hmm:

- you seriously need to ask that? As far as the UK is concerned, no Trainee talks on the r/t until they've successfully completed a period of rating training involving simulator work & r/t training, amongst a whole host of other objectives; that simulated r/t time can be anywhere up to 100 hours. That is followed by what ever is encompassed in the UTP. This may, if required, include an additional period of simulator training - that depends on the unit requirement, but can be another 100 hours. Only then will they go live with an OJTI - hardly the same as here.
But, you already know that, don't you?:ugh:

Well, at least this had a happier ending than the pilot who let his kid fly the plane. Aeroflot Flight 593 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe the ATC kid was playing with this.....
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL194.../383661589.jpg
....then started pestering dad about having a go at the "real thing"?

The solution is simple: no more toys. It gives the little buggars ideas. :}

Looks like a previous post sums it up quite nicely.

100's of hours of training, loads of certificates before someone on the ground can speak to a skygod over a radio. And that's under the close personal supervision of a dedicated experienced professional personal trainer.

Persoanlly I like the other comment about the lowest incident rates from NorthSouth. Gurucube sums it up as well.:ok:

Anyway didn't those amerrycans invent aviation anyway?:=

JFK ATC
 

It has been reported that a dad (JFK ATC controller) took his kid into control and allowed him/her to pass instructions to ac. Crime of the century according to informed US sources.

Is it any different to CO/headmaster for a day or not. The pilots seemed pretty cool about the situation but is this a fuss about nothing (my call) or a serious breach of flight safety?

Nothing in the least bit wrong :ok:

Listen to tape. Kid enjoyed it. Pilots definitely enjoyed it.

In a perfect world, FAA would tell him 'don't do it again without permission" and then go off to worry about things like young adults commuting from California to NJ to fly in the winter with a pilot who flunked several checkrides and didn't know stall recovery.

Too bad we live SO far from a perfect world.

I am perfectly aware of what the UK regulations are. I didn't say anything to the contrary. That doesn't mean I agree with them.*Aww, bless you! It was a rhetorical question.Be careful doing that, you may lose your medical... :}

*(In fact, I actually think they are a load of nonsense and do nothing except restrict people unnecessarily because of some previously poor OJTI skills. Yet another example of reducing our procedures to the lowest common denominator, rather than addressing the problem directly, but we digress....)

And now back on subject....

There have been reports that a few kids (at different times) have been controlling at JFK. Also, 1 or 2 controllers have now been suspended. << I wonder if that last part is fact or fiction.

If he is supervised by a licensed air trafficer, and the readbacks are correct is there really a problem? How different is that from someone undergoing training? I couldnt hear any issues in the audio on the bbc site, flash in a pan methinks...

MPN11
 

International or domestic US, - What came first the chicken or the egg? Both have their strengths & weaknesses. And the rest of the world copes just fine when they fly in US airspace. Most aviation people are quite adaptable, but we all have our pet peeves.

I didn´t think it was a BIG deal, like all the media is playing it to be. Its so sad to see we have become so paranoid. Its obvious the kid is with his dad...c´mon a bit of humour does not kill us. I even heard the pilots having a laugh, understanding the whole thing. Is this worth losing a great controller?
TAIR

Hmmmmm....[thinks] what protection is there against some kid with a handheld VHF pretending to the the Tower?

You won't see this happening at Aeroflot.....:(

Very little, and none whatsoever if he does it so far away that the aeroplanes can hear him but the tower can't. Anecdotally, it has happened!

Alas....some guy is going to lose his hind end over this.....and for no good reason! Some folks in the media and the FAA management need to get their heads out of their butts!

I think it was a hoot....the kid learned something...Dad got to show his young one what he does for a living....no harm....no foul!

I think someone ought to offer that kid a job! His phraseology was pretty good.

i think there is just too much fuzz around it.most of us done things like that. not kids but girlfriends yes.we sing christmas carrol tell jokes, football results and lots of other stuff.my mate once asked 2 b2 pilots if they can make a low pass at lkpr while they were crusing at 390.we had to stop dep. for 5 mins but it was fun. no harm done like at jfk.you cant be ALWAYS serious.

One of the best photos I took whilst at EGLL was of a Spitfire doing a SE-NW flyby of the VCR. I somehow clicked the shutter just as it was passing over a Lufthansa A300 parked on (the old) stand Golf12.....

But then again, those were the days when you could drive an unmarked white van straight through the British Airways maintenance area and onto the Airside area.

Happier days, when the only Elfs were fuel bowsers and those placed around the windsock. Nowadays it's all Elf and Safety.

<<what protection is there against some kid with a handheld VHF pretending to the the Tower?>>

None and, in the UK, no restrictions on buying such equipment. I was involved in a loss of separation when someone with, presumably, a handheld transceiver issued "instructions" to traffic I was controlling. It is not funny. When one of my sons was young I took him into a control tower while I was working and he had strict instructions to keep well out of the way and not to touch anything. As for letting a kid talk on a busy ATC frequency - it's lunacy and I don't think it does anything for "professionalism". Would pilots be happy to let a kid sit in and fly their aeroplane? Ooooooppps.. sorry; it did happen once, didn't it? And a lot of people got dead all of a sudden.

Next time you have a surgical operation, think to yourself: "Wonder if it's the surgeon's kid doing it?"

Down in the Falkland Islands in the days of the F4 I often used to hear children on the ATC frequencies – none from the tower though!

I can't believe some of the totally irresponsible comments on here. You're dealing with peoples' lives, or have you all forgotten that small fact?

Unless the person is properly authorised it is illegal to use ATC radio equipment. Do pilots allow their kids to fly their aeroplane? Oh yes, so one did.... and what happened? Everyone ended up dead.

I am amazed at the people siding with the controller who let his kid get on the radio, maybe they should let their brain operations done by the 8 year old son of their local neurosurgeon. As long as daddy supervises the operation its ok I guess??

Talk about professionalism.................:ugh:

its not the same is it. you dont have to train to say what youve been told to say like the kid did and comparing it to brain operation by kid under supervision is simply stupid.:yuk:

I'm definately with the controller on this one.

As controllers we undergo countless hours of training (200h + in sim, 600h+ OJT) and gain tons of experience when working... A bucketload of "SAFETY" is molded to our backbones, and while working this is REALLY the number one priority.

Every single day we take lots of operational decisions, and every single one is passed by our "safety filter" before it's put into action. I am certain that the ATCO in question did exactly this before letting the kid "parrot" for a few moments.

I've listened to the audio-clip and it does not appear to be a busy situation. Regarding the juridical aspect I have no clue, but I am 100% certain that it was 100 % SAFE all the way. The instructions from the kid could not be misunderstood in any way, and the ATCO in question had him on a short leash, being able to take over in an instant if anything out of the ordinary happened.

my 2 c.

So where ARE you going to draw the line, boys & girls?

12 year-old, or younger, sat on mum/dad's lap 'driving' a 40-tonne artic/bus?

Or the 12.30 London to Glasgow non-stop train?

How about the space shuttle?

As an ADULT, you are examined, trained and tested repeatedly because you
have demonstrated the ability to cope from the time you said, 'I'd like to be
a ...... (whatever your job interest is)', until retirement.

Take youngsters to work, subject management agreement, show them what you do. It's what fires their interest, keeps them keen.

But also show them the adult world of responsibilities, don't let them grow up too fast, too soon.

To do so is irresponsible and you are failing them.

As I pointed out in the thread up in the R&N section, even if you're properly authorized, it's "illegal" to add "Good day", or any other pleasentry to the end of a transmission. Not essential communication you know. Where do you draw the line? Shall we fire them all?