Air Traffic Control Assistants
 

We were told today that a number of Air traffic units around the country were cutting back on assistants is this information correct??
We were also informaed today all the assistants when our air traffic move to there new centre there will be no requirment for any assistants at all.
Is this good for the controllers??:ugh:
The reason for cutting back on the assistants is due to the new automated equipments going in including electronic flight progress strips is all this asking for trouble??
So what next?? No controllers and all the aircraft do there own air traffic.
After all a good assistant can be worth they wait in gold when things are busy and a less than half there salary.
So could we have been sold down the air waves?? :sad:

GBALU53...Who are "we"?

It is no secret that the assistant grade is becoming less relevant or viable. (Cue injured sensibilities about how they saved various backsides.) Unfortunately the world we live in now requires EVERYONE to contribute to the collective profit. ATSA's earning top of the scale for a diminishing amount of work just aren't part of the master plan.


p.s your spelling is dreadful.

Yes....and thats only a little bit of work making up for a plethora of tasks no longer carried out.(Aerodrome ATSA's only)

I was married to one of those and SHE worked hard ...for a lot less money. Whats your experience?....None is my guess.

Now Now girls you are getting off the topic

IF you mean MACC moving to NPC, then the "information" that you? were given is incorrect.
ATSAs are moving "up North" [not all, admittedly]...OOI, where are you stationed?

The centre concerned is down south and I believe it will be the first Area/Approach centre in Britain to have electronic strips.

No it won't - Oceanic Control at Prestwick dispensed with paper strips for routine ATC in 1987.

Interesting comments about the lack of work coming from the ATSA's. At my unit they are happy to take on the jobs that the ATCO's don't want to do.

If the company gets rid of them, who will take on all the work they currently do. Very few ATCO's are prepared to do it unless they are paid more, well thats what they keep saying.

NSL's goal is to rid themselves of the ATSA grade.

They fully expect the ATCO's to bend over and carry out old ATSA duties, Met being one, as certain aerodromes doon sooth do this anyway. They are trying to bring this in slowly by using the old 'contingency' ploy. We all know if we do this then it will become normal OPS and we will be sold down the river by the Union. The only reason I believe that we are not doing these duties as a matter of course now is that we (the union) have not been offered enough money to carry out these duties. However you can bet that when proposed it will be put to the vote and seeing as it only affects NSL then the majority of the union (NERL) will take the extra % on offer as it doesn't affect them.

From my point of view money isn't the issue, I would sooner have an assistant and for instance object to having to undertake 1/2 hourly met obs on a night shift whilst on a break.

I am sure that I am being old fashioned here in this brave new world of nats,but isnt there another view that atcos should refuse that extra few pounds to save the jobs of colleagues who have families, mortgages, school fees etc to pay. I consider it reprehensible that the unions are negotiating colleagues livelihoods away in such a cavalier manner

DC10 ,

You are SOOOO old fashioned!;)

Controllers Views
 

What are controllers views, can a unit like this one as being down can a unit operate without and assistance be it an ATCA or ATSA??
A quote from a NATS colleague ( A good assistant can be worth there wait in gold when things get very busy)
A number of units handle differant types of movements most NATS or nearly all handle very limited light and VFR aircraft. Now a days with restrictions executive jets have been known to go VFR, working London Information yesterday a Executive Jet was crossing the Channel Low level, all be it these types of flights are at a reduced speed burning lots of fuel but they happen for a number of reason possible due over weight for landing so you burn fuel and need to fly low level.
The unit concerned is it an ATSU??? if so are they not required to proved some flight planning facility??, if so should they not assist with flight plans as and when required??
Last question is automation one hundered percent?? as I understand that is why the ATCAs are being fassed out.

<<What are controllers views, can a unit like this one as being down can a unit operate without and assistance be it an ATCA or ATSA??>>

Very sorry but I cannot understand this. "Can a unit like this one as being down can a unit...." What does that mean, please?

<<A quote from a NATS colleague (A good assistant can be worth there wait in gold when things get very busy)>>

I think you mean "worth their weight in gold"? The ATCAs I worked with in NATS were worth their weight in gold ALL the time, not just when it was busy and I held them all in very high regard.

Problem is that technology is taking over many tasks so humans are not needed in such numbers. When I started at Heathrow the Approach Room had 8 operational positions for ATCOs. I believe at Swanwick they now get away with 3 or 4 and shift almost twice the amount of traffic.

'technology' will not help you when 'technology' falls flat on its 'fk me, they told us that would never happen' face.

and one day, it will.

Wow it's like the Luddites all over again! :\

It is the job of TUs to try to protect jobs... but they can only do so if they have valid grounds. Wanting to ignore progress and do things "the old way" in order to keep people in jobs is not valid grounds.

Change should always be challenged to make sure it actually is better - generally it is!

(he replied via a touch-screen, multi-media handset whilst waiting in line at the sandwich shop........ bring back typing pools!! :ok: )

Me Me Me

I do not disagree with progress and/or change. I would suggest that a lot of these "improvements" are money/bonuses/management career driven with safety coming a poor second or third. I just do not see that the respective unions should encourage their members to cooperate with it.

With the current technology EFD will not work on TMA/N andTMA/S. It will probably work on some of the 'feed' sectors and the approach positions but with the absense of some kind of E&S (ATSA to do the input perhaps?) the workload in busy sessions is to great.

GBALU53
I say again......what unit do you work at?
Or are you a Troll? Or a Walt? With your spelling and grammar, I suspect the latter.

Hi Chiglet.. Good number of them on PPRuNe I'm afraid.

Couple of abbreviations that are passing me by here. Am I showing my age?

Middles: can you help me with E&S please.

Chiglet: what on earth is a Walt???!

Eggs

Walt - abbreviation for 'Walter Mitty' - a character masquerading as something he was not. Most often 'Walt' is used in military circles, but has found its way more and more into civvy street.

Based on the lead character in James Thurbers' short story 'The Secret Life of Walter Mitty' in which Walter fantasises about situations he is in

Each of the fantasies is inspired by some detail of Mitty's mundane surroundings:

• The powering up of the "Navy hydroplane” in the opening scene is followed by Mrs. Mitty's complaint that Mitty is "driving too fast", which suggests that his driving was what led to the daydream.
• Mitty's turn as a brilliant surgeon immediately follows his taking off and putting on his gloves (as a surgeon dons surgical gloves) and driving past a hospital.
• The courtroom dram cliché "Perhaps this will refresh your memory", which begins the third fantasy, follows Mitty's attempt to remember what (besides overshoes) his wife told him to buy; and also a newspaper vendor using news of a trial to sell his papers. (Thurber once used the same line to caption a cartoon in which a prosecutor shows the defendant akangaroo.)
• Mitty's romanticized version of British pilots in the early days of WW1 is inspired from his looking at "an old copy of Liberty’, which contains images of a war in which the United States was not yet involved at the time of the story's publication.

The closing firing-squad scene comes when Mitty is standing against a wall, smoking.

me me,

Luddites we are not. Part of the NATS operational staff trying to be logical about the workload impact/safety aspect of new technology on service provision, yes. Trying to save some of our jobs is something which anybody in our position would do - even you. Unions? dont even go there. The only thing which would ever have a real impact on this part of the dilemma is for those who readily speak of ATSAs being 'worth their weight in gold' and having 'utmost admiration' for us to actually get up of their ar*es, state this to the Mgmt who are trying their best to remove us and the service we can provide, and genuinely offer more than just moral support. If you think that ATSAs genuinely can be/are of benefit to the operation, then tell Mgmt so! :mad:

The alternative is for the tasks being relinquished by many of us to be foisted onto ATCO shoulders. Automation is not always what it seems. Many of the tasks are not going away - just being redeployed. If you're happy with sitting there doing your own job and somebody else's on top (especially during a systems outage), then no amount of reasoning is going to change your mind.

Eggs, E&S=Executive and support

Chiglet

My spelling was not on the top list at school, being of mature years I am unable to find the computer spell check.

A number of people on this forum know where I am talking about, I am not going to shoot myself down the airwaves and tell the world which unit we are talking about.

I might even be one of the ATCA,s or ATSA,s that is already down the airwaves awiting a P45 to go to the labour exchange with.

Anotherthing: thankyou, I've learned something. Might even have to watch the film too now.

Middles: do you mean a Planner? Has there been a re-naming exercise? Excuse my ignorance as an APR controller.

The point is that the role is changing like it or not. Technology is replacing many of the tasks that ATSA's had to do, especially in Twr/App units of recent time, (a side not here NSL assistants generally for many years have worked harder, more hours with more tasks than NERL ones, yet get paid far less!) Assistants are worth their weight in gold, in more ways than just when it gets busy or something unusual, but it is a fact that when this isnt the case, their tasks are more limited now than before. EFPS, Full automated Met, CDM tools which perform autologging, FIDS updates etc. Even in some cases the way ATCO postions are now manned such as planners, co-ordinators, or use of Radar1 Radar2 are all reducing the continuous need for ATSA's. They are a great asset, when you consider them being another pair of eyes, to handle that strange time consuming telephone call from some nutter, sorting out some flightplan cockup etc. But very hard to quantify that all the time.

What frustrates though, is that all this arguing about ATSA's isnt going to save them their jobs. What becomes totally mad, is that when you see opportunites for ATSA's to become involved in other tasks to re-generate their wort, the response you can often be faced with is that isnt "in the WP" or " The union wont allow that" or "What will I get paid for that?" So their jobs are at risk because what they do is being replaced by technology, yet sometimes when given the chance to replace their lost tasks with new ones to help secure their future and make them that much needed part of the team again, the Union! Again actually just help them out of the door that much quicker.

Change is happening....ATSA's need to be apart of it, not become a victim of it, in order that they keep their at the end of the day very well paid jobs. If you are asked to help out on the simulator, be involved in a project, take on another task do it....becasue then you will have a reason to argue why the company shouldnt get rid of you, other than our cries of you being worth your weight in gold.

Buzz Worrds
 

The two BUZZ words at the moment,

Safety Management and Risk assesment.:suspect:

I take it both of these have been fully looked into in this case??::suspect:

With no assistant in two years time and new equipment not fully tested in an area like the one the subject is on, what happens when all goes pear shape with the new equipment failsing???

The airport which I understand is on an Island along with a number of other Islands all comes to a grinding halt and closes for a number of days???

Good for trade????:(:(:(:ugh::ugh:

GBALU53

I get the feeling that you are somewhat new to the "NATS" experience?

are in no way new Buzz Words. It will be within the realms of these that assistants can be phased out, a Unit Safety Case, which all units are legally bound to have under both european and CAA law as its part of the Safety Manual. Have a read of CAP670 to see that it isnt specific to NATS. But basically an ATSA and also any new systems so example EFPS will all be risk assessed and the assistants have published safety accountabilities....hence my view that if they make sure they do more then there is less option to have them replaced! Then the value that we put in ATSA's that cant be documented in a Safety Case, wont be lost.

As I say Change is happening....they need to be part of it i order to secure their future. Its a fact some are going....we/they need to make sure it isnt all of them!

3miles:

<<What becomes totally mad, is that when you see opportunites for ATSA's to become involved in other tasks to re-generate their wort, the response you can often be faced with is that isnt "in the WP" or " The union wont allow that" or "What will I get paid for that?" So their jobs are at risk because what they do is being replaced by technology, yet sometimes when given the chance to replace their lost tasks with new ones to help secure their future and make them that much needed part of the team again, the Union! Again actually just help them out of the door that much quicker.

Change is happening....ATSA's need to be apart of it, not become a victim of it, in order that they keep their at the end of the day very well paid jobs. If you are asked to help out on the simulator, be involved in a project, take on another task do it....becasue then you will have a reason to argue why the company shouldnt get rid of you, other than our cries of you being worth your weight in gold.>>

If you are happy to take on the work, project or tasks that were originally done by either several people or somebody of a higher grade until they became victims of the cost savings, then more power to you and I respect your reasons why.

However, if it is in the mistaken belief that it will make your position more secure then you could not be more wrong. When it comes to judgement day for you, management will show you exactly how they value your worth by asking you to bend over the desk and whilst having a good old rumage will pass the P45 around with the other hand, in the same way they have/will do with others.

I think I would rather jump before being pushed and leave with my dignity in tact before I fell into the smeagol way of thinking, which seems to be getting championed by management and union alike.

3miles
From what I understand those buzz words are new to the centre which the topic relates to??

Well if the centre that the poster is reffering to is within the UK, or even in fact europe, then they are most certainaly not new, whether it be a TWR/APP unit or a Centre...they all require to have a Safety Management System in place by law, its not a NATS idea, its Aviation Law. and has been for some time. How that SMS gets put together has strict guidance, and is required to be audited and approved by SRG/CAA and European legislation.

Along with Job accountabilites and Safety Accountabilites for each role....which is what links to the ATSA's. Read there Safety Accountabilites, and when you read, provide Met observations, input flight data, etc...and see that they dont exist anymore because they have been replaced by technology, then it becomes a difficult fight for the ATSA's not to lose their job, Their Weight in Gold is difficult to put on a Saftey Accountability, along with fielding Phone calls, sorting out bad flightplans, running to get you a support controller, being another valuable pair of eyes. But some of the other tasks that could be taken up by assistants, to replace the tasks that they dont do anymore, would ensure when you read their safety Accountabilities, make them a lot harder to get rid of then. As the other cynical poster points out, management and the Unions are not here to be nice and think of peoples mortgages, they deal in how much money they can safe, and yes they will look to loading other peoples jobs together, but then lets face it there an awfull lot of dross in NATS, doing jobs with massive teams that could be done by fewer individuals. But perhaps the reason VN's keep coming up for these positions, is because the staff we have wont do it! at the end of the day its far cheaper for NATS to keep the ATSA, not employ a load of others if the ATSA's took on some of these roles, and quite honestly I'd have thought especially some of the younger ATSA's they would relish the task of getting an opportunity to develop a career and not see their job become mundane because of the amount of technology thats taken away a lot of their work.

RVR600 makes perfect sense to me :ok:

Oddly enough, the unit isn't part of the UK and in fact not part of Europe although some would try to disagree. So SMS and QMS are relatively new terms.

It would be interesting to read the risk assessment that says it is safer to run without ATCAs!!:ugh:

It doesn't need to be safer, just no less safe