Aberdeen Runway Occupancy
 

Folks,

Dunno if you can help with this - flew to Aberdeen the other day in a 738 in windy and rainy conditions. The runway isn't particularly long, and as we were relatively heavy, the decision made was the slam on the anchors to make sure we stopped then roll to the end. As it happens, we got stopped pretty quickly and then continued to roll, yet we were heavily chastised by the controller for making such an action.

How closely spaced are the arrivals at ABZ? We had an Eastern Airways prop behind us which isn't particularly fast on approach, and it didn't seem that busy on the ground. I wasn't impressed with the tone ATC took with us after that!

One of the things that came to mind is what is written in our airfield briefs, do they get shown to ATC? Do they have input in the way it's written? The brief for ABZ makes note of the short runway and the need to avoid floating/delaying brake application. Feedback appreciated.

Horgy

I'm curious about the term heavily chastised? If you were told to expedite vacating,then that is standard R/T.Anything else then you have a point,and perhaps a phone call to the watch manager might have been in order.

There is a "standard gap" procedure at Aberdeen which gives spacing of 8nm between fixed wings and a speed limit of 160kt from 8nm from touchdown. Helicopters are spaced at 6nm from whatever is in front as it crosses the threshold.

The tower controller can suspend this procedure when traffic permits and allow radar to pack them in. In this case the turboprop would have been 4nm behind you if it was a Saab 2000 or 6nm if it was a Jetstream 41. In a nil headwind condition, it could have got tasty if you stopped completely on the runway and then rolled gently to the end.

BTW, don't believe that turboprops are not particularly fast on approach. I've seen them do 220kts to 4nm. Try that in your 738 with our titchy runway! :)

738 into ABZ.Kind of narrows the operators down a bit....To be sure.:ok:
I've seen Eastern do 250 kts to 4nm with the Saab 2000.Even some of the new EC225 helis will do 160kts to well inside 4nm.
On 16 there is no high or low speed turn off for a 738.It's to the end always.On 34 it's slightly better with W4,but we still see aircraft more often than not go to the end.
The 8 mile gap is to provide vortex spacing after helis with a light following.Applies to landing on the same and crossing runway,and to departures from certain holding points.
We quite often will pack traffic to help the inbounds and radar.If we have to operate standard gaps ,there will he holding.Often the first to complain is a certain 738 operator.:hmm::hmm:
We don't see what airlines brief about ABZ,but we are very aware of the short runway.That's why we try to avoid operating will a tailwind component as much as possible.Also we are aware that 737 have automatic brake selection,and can come to a grinding halt.But then we have 460 movements a day,and it would be nice if aircraft didn't occupy the runway too long.

The mighty Jetstream 31/32 will quite happily sit at 230knts (VMO) until 4d and you will be fully configured and stable by 2.5D and if brought back to 160knts there is no rush to bring the speed back after that. I won't bother telling you what she can do empty with a 15knt headwind on a visual. I suspect the Gama Kingair would be similar if not faster.

At 160 you will be flap 10. At 3D gear down flap 20 speed will have washed off to 145knts 2D flap 35 and then 135knts to 200ft. The 135 until 200ft is a BAe limitation not a company limit. Over the fence at 101-109knots. Touchdown into beta not rev no need to touch the brakes unless heavy and you will easy make the heli runway to backtrack.

Sometimes especially if the TP is coming in from the south the area controllers stitch the app controller up a treat by trying to get a Jet in front of a TP below 10k. It never works and always ends up with the approach controller working 10 to the dozen and the TP with an extra 5-10 mins of flight.

Although I do feel for the controllers the couple of times they have arranged things so we can nip in on a visual down the Don valley first. The amount of grumping and moaning off the shuttle was comical, I can see why the can't be bothered. They weren't even on tower by the time we went to ground.

ATC
 

i have haerd a couple of people say that ABZ ATC have got a bit 'shirty on occassion'.

Very very occasionally I have heard the odd strongly said word.

But they are not in the the same league as the three witches at BHX.

James T,
Hmmm

Let's see why.An airfield the size of a postage stamp,with not enough stands.Some of the most varied traffic in the world.Constant bitching from certain operators why they are number 2 instead of number 1.Helis training thinking they are top priority and complaining when they are last.S:mad:ite pay for Nats.Pension going down the toilet.I could say more.
OK sometimes people might get a bit shirty,but I bet they have been provoked.I just say any complaints to the watch manager on the phone,and let them bite your head off.

Should've heard what they called a DanAir once, or is that just an urban myth?

Sounds like a fun place to work. Life's too short you know...

I know the Eastern taxiway was occupied for a time by a E195 today.

I was on duty that day and can testify that it isn't an urban myth. DA082 called up north of Perth and said "Good morning Aberdeen it's the fu:eek:ing Dan Air 082 descending FL90".

This took the controller somewhat by surprise but he was even more shocked when the pilot kept referring to his flight as "fu:eek:ing Dan Air 082".

When he finally plucked up courage to ask the pilot why he was using a non-standard callsign, he was asked to listen to the ATIS. There in the background, but as clear as a bell was another controller saying "Where is the fu:eek:ing Dan Air 082"!

throw a dyce
 

Not a criticism from me. I have never had a problem. I used to instruct at a VERY busy airfield and can sympathise what a headache you controllers can get from us.

Yes but it's preferable to vacant via a taxiway rather than go off the end at 20/30 kts just to keep others happy. Do I believe in minimum runway occupancy - yes of course! But it's just a fact of life that even at the best organised airports there's going to be the occasional go-around because the runway is still occupied. You should try landing something like a B738 on a wet limiting runway even with all the autobrake and reverse thrust and you will know what I mean. Also big brother is watching us - there are maximum limits for taxiing/vacating depending on the geometry of the runway/taxiways and if we exceed them it might be tea and biscuits with the Chief Pilot. We do try our best. Finally, yes as a pilot it makes me cringe when I hear some of my professional colleagues berating ATC as to why they are number 2 etc. It's all part of life's rich tapestry!

As letMfly says, its true- I heard the story from one of the people involved... If memory serves me right, the DAN081 was the last flight of the day, and once landed the Radar Controller could go home (leaving the TWR Controller there until official close time). The Assistant was recording the ATIS and that was when the Controller uttered the words (not thinking that the ATIS was being recorded and might pick them up!).
Thats the gist of it, as remembered through an alcoholic fog :\

The biggest shock of the story is that the DAN AIR could actually get the ATIS from as far away as Perth.

Many a time over St Abbs after giving up on the VOR ATIS wondering how the hell is Manchester Ground clear as a bell here when I can't hear them on stand 1. Yes I know its only a departure ATIS and we shouldn't be using it,

A very helpful insight, that's for your comments.

Indeed, I think it might have been a pack it in moment. Your right with the 737 we have autobrake 2,3 or max. Max is never normally used unless it's somewhere like ABZ, and especially in the wet weather. We did infact stop where we could have vacated by the heli runway but were instructed to keep rolling - I appreciate that could have irked the controller, but his tone was what put me off. I wasn't going to "dob him in" because we all have bad days.

I'll forward what you guys have mentioned to the CP and maybe he can bung some in the Aberdeen brief for us, it's certainly useful information. I didn't know props could rocket around like that!

Horgy

Mr Horgy,
I'm still curious about this thing about the tone of the controller.If you landed on 16 and could have vacated down 32/A4,it causes real problems for Ground getting you into Stand 1-5 against the flow.Also there is a major confliction with the helis.Tower are trying to help you.
If you landed on 34 and could make 23/D2,it isn't always possible.There could be a heli holding at C3,and Tower must co-ordinate that with GMC.If they say no then forget it.Also you come into conflict with helis landing on 32.
In any case Tower told you to continue rolling.Standard R/T.Vacate at whatever taxiway.Unless you say what chastising you got,I can only presume that the controller used standard R/T to get you off the runway ASAP.If that was the case,then there is no case to answer.
I'll try an get a EC225 heli to chase the 738 down the ILS.Probably catch up inside 5nm.:)

It was for runway 16. We were at taxiing speed by the intersection with 14/32. The conversation went along the lines of:

"Cont: RYRXXX Keep rolling please, I have traffic close on finals BREAK Eastern XXX reduce to minimum app speed"
"Eastern XXX: We're bringing it back"
"Cont: RYRXXX That's really not where i'd expect you to stop, I have traffic behind you close in, and it'll screw things up. Keep the speed up"
"RYRXXX: Wilco"

I can see his justification for behind irate, but the tone he used was how i'd assume you'd address your problem child. Condescending, and sarcastic. I didn't report it as I don't think it would have achieved anything.

Horgy

MrHorgy, Trust me - we aren't all as bad as the individual who displayed a less than professional attitude to the job at Aberdeen. There are about twenty-five of us valid on tower and, after reading your recollection of events, I am pretty certain on who it was. More importantly, I think that he will recognise himself on PPRUNE and hopefully be shamed into modifying his attitude.

There is NO EXCUSE for lecturing, bollocking, being sarcastic or shouting at pilots on the R/T, no matter how experienced or otherwise that pilot is. All that achieves is to display to others on frequency what an insecure/poor controller you are. It can also be detrimental to safety, by distracting pilots and breaking their concentration.

I would encourage any pilot to phone in and discuss poor ATCO behaviour with the Watch Manager/Supervisor as it provides valuable "ammunition" to help address that behaviour.

letMfly

Well i'll certainly consider it in future, our 25minute turn arounds don't allow much time for such matters!

I'm sure it was an isolated incident. I've been to Swanwick, Manchester, and various towers across the UK and always been impressed, and pleased to meet the guys on the other side of the scope. The Highland and Island guys were especially friendly (probably because they only dealt with 2 movements per day :E)

Didn't realise Aberdeen was so busy though, with all that Heli traffic, hats off to you!

Horgy

Aberdeen ATC are in my opinion very good. There is however one individual that can, on occasion, come across shirty and direct. Can't take it too personally as its obviously just their nature. No issues with his controlling though.
Not aiming this at you MrHorgy, but I often wonder what visiting crews are expecting when they come to Aberdeen. I get the impresion that many crews don't realise how busy Aberdeen actually is. Couple the traffic with the fact that every aircraft wants to fly at different speeds (ranging from 90kts-250kts), I reckon ABZ ATC do a very good job.
In the last year the two go-arounds that I've done are at ABZ on 16 and both due to runway occupancy. If you have slowed abeam 32 it's still a fair distance (uphill) & time to vacate at the end. Lots of sweaty moments for the controllers I would think.
ps Major creep But whats the score with the airfield DME? Any idea when it's due back?

As someone who flies helis in and out of Aberdeen, I must say that ATC do good for both us and our FW brethren. Last week was a bit of a nightmare coming back from offshore when told to hold out at 30D from EGPD, due to SNOCLO initially, and then just waiting our turn to land. We were told we were No 8 and that was just RW traffic - there were FW in between.

After about 45 minutes of holding at various points we eventually went to Approach and then Director for our sequencing on to the ILS. It was all handled very well by courteous, professional controllers. On landing we saw about 3 FW waiting to go plus another 2 RW. They all had to be fitted in somewhere between all of the arrivals.

With regard to the individual on Tower as mentioned on the thread starter, there is only one that I have heard that can be like that. Usually it is when the pressure increases due to more than a couple of aircraft on frequency at the same time. I have heard that individual give a crew (unfortunately an operator no longer here) a real sharp talking to about their company ops and filing plans. Not sure it was necessary especially as it was a weekend and there is no GC, only TWR. It was difficult for everyone else to get their normal calls in. When this person had finished their rant, others got sharp replies as they tried to get their calls in for taxi, initial tower calls, etc, just because the controller was then trying to catch up with where everyone was!

Aberdeen ATC in general are a great bunch and will try their utmost when they can to speed every one on their way. Thanks everyone.

I've been in/out ABZ for years B757 and now A319/320...

ABZ has no overruns to speak of, is frequently wet, in fact, worse than that, "wet wet wet!". There are no High Speed turnoffs, and despite the intersection turnoff on 34, you cannot really plan on it since when you do there's a helo there or something.

Braking actions on a runway often vary - and of course are much reduced when you try to turn, and when someone decides to paint numbers and piano keys on them ;)

I have never been adminished by ATC there - I find them great, but it is not somewhere where minimum runway occupancy even crosses my mind :ooh: You land, get speed WELL under control, and then creep to the end. Anyone who has experienced the antiskid denying you braking will know the feeling ;)

NoD

I believe they are planning on mounting it on a longer pole in it's current position as an interim fix until it is re-sited following the runway extension. When this is going to happen is anybodys guess.

In the meantime we are being careful that aircraft are getting range checks on final approach.Got to be careful after the crash of a Korean 747 at Guam.They thought an offset DME was on the airfield,and flew it into the ground.

I sympathise with the first poster. There are two regular voices on ABZ frequencies who use a stern, sarcastic tone. Some years ago I had a SATCO from another airport jump-seating for familiarisation who couldn't believe the confrontational tone he heard from an ABZ controller to another aircraft.

I have suffered sarcastic or stern rebuke for:

Maintaining a previously assigned and declared high speed (>250kts) by the previous sector, because as is so often usual the ABZ approach controller ignored or forgot about the speed assigned on check-in. Not worth arguing about on the R/T.

Exiting 16 at the far end at 10kts; the maximum a 55 ton aeroplane will cope with on an even damp runway. And though we try to keep it rolling, aeroplanes are not cars......we can't go hoofing round the corner like your Ranger Shoguns. We have to get the aeroplane down to a reasonable pace on the runway and then continue to the end. From the tower this looks painfully slow, but is often around 30kts. It's foolhardy for a pilot to use almost the whole distance and then decelerate harder approaching the stop-end.

Daring to check in on departure with the radar controller with a passing FL for a cleared FL and being immediately chastised for not giving a passing altitude (lesson learned but this is not the way to go about it).

Frankly in the 6 years I have been operating at Aberdeen I am sick to death of these pathetic bullies. I would hazard a guess they would not be so aggressive face to face. The old yawn about "don't you know we are the xxx busiest airport in the UK" no longer bears any impression on me as my experience of similar volumes at other airports doesn't come close to comparing with ABZ's hard-acts.

I'm happy to say 90% of the controllers at ABZ are no different to any other busy UK controller; calm and efficient. I must qualify this post by emphasising it's only two of the voices in my opinion that are guilty of shouting down pilots. It's not often I get wound up on Pprune but it's about time something was done about these characters.

And yes, when it happens again I'll contact the Watch Manager. And yes, pilots who ask why they are a certain number in sequence get on my t*ts too.

Limpopo.........I remember that controller yelling to pilots about the flight plan re-filing. Totally out of order. A simple "you'll have to contact your company" standard reply would have worked.

Same in my experience. As an aside, I'll give meself away, everyone knows who I am anyway, but it was us this morning who caused the go around due to a technical issue (stall warner allergic to de icing fluid and cold, apparently), and apologies to the aircraft arriving behind us. Many thanks to ALL in Air Traffic, handled thoroughly professionally, we were sure it was spurious but I still couldn't keep down the adrenalin (you ask yourself a million panicky questions about frozen pitots, speed, then tell yourself to grow up because there's nothing really killing you. I think it's the noise that does it, and we can't cancel it!). Cheers for organising a new flight plan (beyond the call of duty), and to the Fire Crew for being on the ball also.


Everyone here seems to agree that is true, and it looks like the thread author has met with his wrath. Recently he was heard in long discussions (better kept for the telephone) regarding an aircraft authorised to depart with transponder inop. Little was resolved and the distraction was palpable. However, as an ABZ regular, the norm is a very high standard of service, and the rest being described here, is the exception.

FlatBroke -

Yeah that's something I plan on communicating to our flight ops about the field, I am more than willing to accept I had no idea it was so busy, the airport diagram had me stumped for a while because I couldn't work out why you'd have little runways like that heh..

NigelonDraft sums it up pretty well, we both trying to do out jobs as efficiently as possible but I guess sometimes weather makes it a bit gritty that's all.

Horgy

Kiltie,
It would be interesting to know where the SATCO was from.
I have noticed over the last few years a change in the standard at ABZ.Perhaps there are one or two who are at their operating limit,both on tower and radar.
There are a huge amount of extra tasks we have to do,especially in the tower which can make a difficult job almost impossible.However the tower has been loaded up beyond the limit with training,to keep the customers happy.The co-ordination that the tower is required to do is ridiculous.The amount of vehicles that the tower has to speak to is too much.You get bombarded from all directions,and have to integrate all this on to 3 runways.I have worked elsewhere in the world,and if you can do ABZ tower,then you could validate in a hell of a lot of other places.
I personally hate doing the tower now,although I try not to let it get to the level of the individuals that have been mentioned in dispatches.Perhaps it is time to do something about it,(get out somehow),before my health suffers again.
There is also disquiet that the airport side gets a raw deal from unions and management,who really have little idea what goes on there.I'm sure Nats down south haven't got a clue about the operation.It's just done as it has always been,on the cheap.
Perhaps we are getting sick and tired of always having to provide this first class service :ok:,with 3rd class conditions.We give services outside CAS,to operators taking shortcuts,when they are surrounded by military.We give services to heli training school,inside CAS,which increases the workload vastly.This is not our core task.We talk to 80% of outbounds unlike many units.The airspace to the south of ABZ is a total war zone,but lots of operators bimble along in there,oblivious to everything.We are not paid for any of this.
Anyway keep smiling and open another tinny.Wait for tomorrows bombardment.:hmm:

I'm sure I'll get a beating for saying this, but all units have their own crap to deal with. Not just Aberdeen. ;)

Traffic Is... I'm with you on this - we're always in it - only the depth varies !
:D

throwadyce

I sympathise with your working conditions, which are well known as diverse and arguably undermanned. However, pilots have their own "pushed to the limit" sh*t to deal with in their own operation. It is not least helped by MATS and its own local procedures differing from the publications that pilots have access to.

What is unforgiveable is aggression demonstrated behind the "safehouse" of the microphone. It's cowardly.

I, and I doubt the thread starter, had or ever practice the disregard of everyone else by manoeuvering our aeroplanes at a pace that suits their own whim on the day. I fly 160kts to 4 dme as standard for the hell of it every day unless otherwise instructed, but inside 4 dme my concentration on an 1829m runway without fast exits is focussed on stopping a large aeroplane safely; the stress of which is compounded with the knowledge that there is someone up my chuff waiting on a landing clearance.

I think the ideal, but unachievable scenario, is to put your two aggressive colleagues in the aeroplane driver's seat and see just how their ringpiece twitches with their feet on the pedals and trying to turn the nose gear tiller to the sound of the tyres parting company with the rims on the turnoff. It looks damned slow from your tower; I've seen it for myself up there.:E

PS Some operators that fly in the warzone are not "oblivious to everything" as you describe. The one operator I know you have concerns over before has a robust Class G briefing to pilots, and conditions of operating therein (ie mandatory RAS, mustn't downgrade to RIS intentionally) than operators of heavier, faster types, including mine!

Tinnies cracked open in the spirit of good comms :)

Kiltie,
We introduced standard gaps to stop this sort of thing happening.On 16 you need a minimum7 miles gap to get an outbound away,without having to resort to the handbrake turn at the end.It took a lot to convince the powers that be of the need,and the process is still ongoing.Actually it took an incident as usual.
I can't speak for the two people you mention,but I know what it is like to land a jet at ABZ.As part of out training many moons ago,we got to fly the Trident 3 sim at Heathrow.I landed it at ABZ.That was interesting,just getting it to stop was the major issue,so I can understand where you are coming from.
Regarding the 2 individuals,then I have had issues with a few there,and they are quite capable of being just as aggressive with their fellow controllers.I'm sure that the powers that be are taking note.
As far as ATSOCAS goes.Ok you may get a RAS,but that isn't really going to save you from the military banging out of low level,straight up.You may get some warning from us,but we could be busy doing our primary tasks.If you see that airspace from our side,then it's taking a real gamble sometimes to go in Class G,even though you know the difference between RAS and RIS.

Mr Horgy,

Thanks for your thread, it has hopefully shown the 1 or 2 'stroppy' individuals how they come across on the R/T. (Public humiliation always works I find!!) There are approx 50 controllers at Aberdeen and to have 1 maybe 2 sarccy ones is probably a pretty fair ratio. I agree with all the previous posters that in a professional and dynamic environment 'having it out' or being sarcastic on the radio is unprofessional, petty and probably egotistical. (Surely that's what humour is for?!)

ABZ is a fairly unusual operation with its fair share of unusual scenarios but having a large aircraft stop asap on a short, wet runway cannot be called unusual. Even the Air France Embraers do it regularly so it is not exactly unheard of!

TAD,

Still disagree with you over the risks in Class G to the South of Aberdeen. I've only ever given 1 avoiding action to that airline and that was because the crew missed my first RAS call. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the issue!

Limpopo,

Thanks for your kind words. Last week was testing for both sides of the R/T.

Regards, ADIS

ADIS,
I have seen a lot of avoiding actions down there.Even seen two near collisions.But I respect your opinion on that.On the airport side there are only 25-30,and how many of them are fully valid?

TAD,

I can highly recommend being part-valid, all of the money and only 50% of the grief!!

Regards, ADIS

MrHorgy: If you have trouble getting a 738 to stop at Aberdeen (LDA 1829m) what on earth do you do at Belfast City (LDA 1737 and 1767m)?
NS

How do you know ADIS? You were soooo late because of a bit of snow, that you missed most of the fun! :E

PS Enjoy your leave

letM,

I was only 7 hours late for an 8 hour shift, don't see the problem myself! After all, thats why the Company employs you, to cover for when the professionals can't get in! :E :E

Regards ADIS

NS:

We don't, infact we stopped in some 1400m or less. The problem was WHERE we stopped, and the "issue" we caused to a certain member of staff at ABZ who had stacked his cards in such a way so that our actions nearly brought everything crashing down. 738 is a great airplane, we could have stopped even shorter had we not cancelled reverse early on - stamping on the brakes at Max Auto isn't good for passenger comfort!

Horgy