Latest Pay Round
 

ANYBODY GOT ANY INFO ON THE CURRENT PAY NEGOTIATIONS,

IT'S ALL GONE A BIT QUIET

WHO ARE GOING TO BE THE MAIN BENEFICIARIES?

What company and where?

Well, for once, NATS pensioners should get 5% - not bad, eh?

HD

Sounds good, where did you get that from?

Don't think so HD. This year's pension increase will be based on the RPI for February 2009 which is published in March. Perhaps you are thinking of state pension increases which are payable in April 2009 but are based on the RPI for September 2008 which would be around 5%.

UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
 

This is a Rumour Network after all, so has anyone else heard the following...

1. The details of the sale of the old Heathrow tower (realising £45 million) were kept quiet until after pension negotiations were completed - i.e. the profit although known, was not divulged to all parties.

2. The (not for profit investing) Airline Group are going to receive a £19 million dividend.

3. Management are playing hardball and are not negotiating over pay deal. They are whingeing about the fact that we are using the Aug 08 RPI as a base figure, although in the past they have insisted on using the Aug RPI for pay deals (when it was believed the following years RPI would rise, not fall). This is despite the fact they still use it as a basis to charge their customers.

4. The Union has even tried to suggest a middleground which has been dismissed out of hand.

5. Our powder is dry.

OK, I know number 5 is a bit of a stretch, even for a rumour network.

Anyone else been privy to rumours or able to substantiate those above??

Who doesnt love a rumour...
 

well who doesnt love a good rumour... so:
1) I believe this to be fact... And totally dont put it past the powers that be
2) Also believe the airline group will get some variety of dividend this year... Not sure about the figure, but I cant see how they wont. As for not for profit, maybe as well be written on a sheet of tesco value toilet paper, for all its worth
3) Also heard this one, and well believe it too! In previous years, it was Aug RPI, we got it shoved down our throats, why arent the union doing the same?
4) Middleground has been offered, and from what i heard turned down. Heard the company say Pay Freeze, end of discussion.
5) 5 is a big stretch, even for this rumour mill... It was as dry as a desert for me on the pension talks, but if we wont take action over pension, will we really take action over a few quid of a pay rise...

Also heard a nastier rumour this week, but it really is totally totally unsubstantiated... Even for a rumour network, its not that a great an idea... Lets see what our union get for us, i'm not planning what i'm gonna spend my rise on, put it that way

Let's face it though, we've rolled over and had our tummies tickled over pensions - the thing we said we'd never even contemplate compromising on. Now, management have us pretty much over a barrel regarding pay, WP's and anything else they want to alter/shaft us on. And we can hardly complain.....

Also, perhaps it's time we "joined the real world" once and for all. After all, I don't think anyone, in any trade, job or profession, is having an easy time at the moment. Perhaps we should be glad our jobs are safe and take the hits as they come.

Unless you're an ATSA/T&S grade that is. Or an engineer.....or anyone moving up to Scotland from Manchester.

Oh.

The YES voters also voted a NO pay rise without realising it!

Prospect and its membership have been rolled over a barrel and shafted BIG TIME.

The Bloody Red Barron has shot yet another group of employees down in flames.

No pay rise in 2009 means that I am earning less compared to last year if you add inflation from Jan 1st 2009.

What next, Prospect advocating a pay freeze?

Vote YES to save NATS.

Vote NO to upset Barron.

NATS and its senior managers ............ :mad: s

Well...voting yes has left management laughing and out to test the water thinking they can roll over the union as its members will just vote yes......well if the union recommend no then members will likely vote no...so management be warned! Biggest problem we got at the moment is they will look at the economic climate and how the public will view us with so many losing their jobs, and jump on this to force our hand. Also.....biggest issue is they are discussing redundancies........across the company, numbers to be announced very soon......nice way to maximise profits!! and s@#*# the workforce:=

Today's info from CRCO (just to cheer you up).
 

The Total Service Units in the EUROCONTROL region are forecast to grow by 2.1% (UK 1.4%) in 2008 (vs. 2007 actual). This forecast is 1.4% (UK 3.2%) below the previous 2008 forecast issued in September 2008.
The Total Service Units in the EUROCONTROL region are forecast to decrease by 3.4% (UK 6.2%) in 2009 (vs. revised 2008 forecast). This forecast is 5.8% (UK 9.2%) below the previous 2009 forecast issued in September 2008.

total service unit is a french owned garage that does fuel and maintenance...

RB can get stuffed, we should get a pay rise (even if only RPI). Most - maybe all? - units are short staffed. The reduction in traffic thats forecast is not enough to warrant reducing staff numbers (certainly operationally required staff), so we are still short staffed. Demand outweighs supply, and we are also in demand from other ATS providers, ergo, management should not be trying to have their cake and eat it, or the candle might lead to the powder!!

I would even work an hour for free too (but it will be the night of the clocks going forward)

I cant see our esteemed leaders getting much sympathy if there was a strike given that they have cut trainee pay, cut pensions, yet given themselves unnecessary cars and bonuses.

A "Service Unit" is what ANSPs in Europe get paid for (the square root of the result obtained by dividing the maximum take-off weight (in metric tons) of the aircraft by 50, multiplied by the distance flown in 100s of km)
AND
a "Total" is a sum, an amount obtained by the addition of smaller amounts
see EUROCONTROL - Frequently Asked Questions

The formula for route charges is contrived but enshrined in International agreement. Its the same for all Eurocontrol ANSPS but each country sets its own unit rate to feed into the formula. There are a number of reasons why those rates differ. The UK recovers other costs as well as the pure NATS costs through its route charges which others don't but the main difference is because the actual cost of provision isn't reflected in the charging formula. It costs far more to provide Air Traffic Control in a complex busy environment than it does to provide service to large aircraft in the cruise and Air Traffic Control has a large element of fixed costs which are driven by the peak demand rather than the average load.

The problem for any ANSP in this and any other recession is that when routes are cut and frequencies reduced it immediately affects income because there are less flights but those cuts are usually off peak and you still need just as many staff and just the same infrastructure in the peak periods so the opportunities for cost saving are limited.

As eglnyt has hinted, the formula is a means of sharing out each ANSP's total costs between all of its users. The square root formula seems a bit odd, I agree. It has been in place since the early 1970s (total cost recovery from en-route charges was, however, only achieved in the late 70s as it was phased in from 1974 on). I always assumed that the square root formula gives an approximation to the potential passenger payload of an aircraft, although I've never tried to do any analysis to confirm this.

ps I think that NATS is remarkably cheap, given that it is the only ANSP which has been established as a separate trading entity for long enough for any implicit state subsidy to have worked its way out of the system.

Not looking good, any truth in the rumour that not only a pay freeze, but a hold on all increments/spine points as well, the income into the company is falling at an "alarming rate"

Expect many 'rumours' such as this. I think in PR it is referred to as 'kite flying' (?)...make people expect something awful, then when something ****e but not actually anyway near that bad is offered, they think ts a great deal and they are lucky.

I heard were not doing to bad thanks to the euro?

RPI is a figure obtained from historical data: i.e prices have already gone up by that amount.

Any payrise at RPI will simply bring pay back up to the level prior to the rise in the cost of living. We are all currently, in real terms, getting paid less than what we were last year, notwithstanding any spine point increases.

So please Prospect et al don't let management screw us over using the current economic climate as an excuse. We're still sore from the shafting we received over the pension scheme. NATS have "controlled" one of their biggests costs, now they can give us what's fair.

Plus, the Euro is doing great vs sterling, so drop in revenue is more than compensated by exchange rate changes.

You could always, y'know, tell them where to stick it, or else you won't be at work on Monday? Guess who has more to lose from that scenario?

Not sure where you were when we discussed this on a previous thread but not the case I'm afraid. Eurocontrol adjust the unit rate each month to ensure that what they charge the customers in euros is roughly right in sterling. There will be a small gain because the rate lags the actual exchange rate but it won't be that much.

DAL208

Kite flying or sh!t stirring - I never can tell the difference!

For management to stop the annual pay spine award it would need to re-write our contracts... I can't see that happening.

Prospect have already told management that they have historically insisted on using the Aug RPI as a basis for negotiation, therefore they cannot change procedure just to suit them.

Upon hearing managements offer of a pay freeze, they also informed them that as far as they (Prospect) were concerned, a pay freeze equated to a pay (standard of living) cut and an RPI rise equates to a pay freeze.

Whether that statement is backed up or is just Prospect posturing for the benefit of the crowds remains to be seen.

The fact of the matter is, if management continue to play hardball over the next couple of weeks, Prospect need to stop fannying about and start taking action.

However, this will probably drag on for ages, just like the pension. Prospect have indicated that there were lessons to be learned from the Pension issue (namely communication to the members), lets hope that we get informed officially, and promptly, of what is going on after this weeks BEC.

We will not get a spine point freeze!
Having spoken with my union rep who is on the negotiating team for the pay deal, we will get some sort of payrise.... not sure how much though and he also stated that prospect WERE prepared to play hardball against the company if they continued to push a 0% rise.
Lets hope they communicate well, keep us informed and involved of ALL developments unlike the pension saga.
My personal view would be to give management a date, eg 10th Feb. If they havent come back with a respectable offer that can then open negotiations, the union ballot right away for strike action. No fannying around, straight to the point..... or something to that effect.
I sincerely hope the union can gain back a lot of the lost confidence they have lost over the pension deal. Again, management are chancing their arm and seeing what they can get away with, ala pension deal... please can we learn from this and the union can prove they represent us with strength and confidence.

As a outsider looking in , i see some (i say again some)of you still have no grip on reality and whats happening in the real world of business whilst sat inside your NATS cocoon. You remind me of the the old British Rail Guards who when told by management that they would be losing the danger money allowance ,which was in place as the guards had to physically light the old oil lamps. Replied "but we have always had the allowance " (even though they had gone to electric 10 years previous)
Wake up guys smell coffee, its a whole new world out there now.

(puts on hard helmet and body armour);)

It really isnt, and it's sentiments like that which any company will always say no matter the circumstance.

That argument always makes me think about the bitter (not aimed at you) people who always argue that footballers get paid too much. Actually, no...they dont at all...in fact they do not ever get paid what they are worth. A friend of mine who works high up for one of the biggest companies in the country told me once 'employees can never, in a capitalist system get paid what they are worth to the company...because once they do get paid that amount, they are not worth that amount to the company'. What he meant was no company in the history of the world would ever pay any employee more than he/she is worth to that compamy. Take the footballer example...Mr D Beckham when he was at Man U for example asked for 100k a week. Now Utd would not pay him 100k a week if he and his name and talent did not bring in greater than 100k a week...and he knew that. Footballers get paid how much they are worth to a football team, every employee does.
ATCO's and ATSA's will always simply demand that we get paid what we deserve and are worth to the company, and NATS will never pay us more than that. Its simple...but its true!
Now, its easy to say something like 'oh well the credit crunch changes everything'...well that is an nelievably simplistic viewpoint and i urge fellow prooners not to bite because if people truly believe that, then they will never be pursuaded otherwise!
One thing trafficnotsighted said about the analogy with rail workes could be poignent. I admit im really not conversant with previous pay negotiations etc, but from what i could see, the last pay negotiations went VERY well for ATCO's...at expense of trainees :8 so one could argue to expect an increase on TOP of what was (arguably) a very good pay deal in the first place is unrealistic. Arguably :\

trafficnotsighted.

As an outsider can i assume you know nothing if not very little of our current pension changes of recent?
We have just bailed out NATS to a princely some of tens of millions a year when certain high end figures still receieve a 13% pay rise.
We have always, on insistence of the company taken the previous years RPI as the base of the following years pay deal. Historically that has not been high, now it is and the company doesnt like it.... they cant have it both ways!!!
We fully expect the pay deal in a years time to be bugger all as it will be based on this Augusts RPI.
We do not live in a cocoon, but we all worked our nuts off last summer and this pay deal should reflect that.
Then take into account the recent pension changes, the sectors that us area ATCO's do that is above MUR... to you that means that we do extra work for FREE and above what our contract states (if we were to give these up, which we are perfectly entitled to do NATS would be screwed) and, the fact that NATS continues to post record profits on its intranet for all us to read then you may be able to see why we will fight for a respectable pay rise.

NATS love to use scaremonger tactics. It worked during the pension deal and they are simply trying it all over again.

If the profits are so bloody great, how about rewarding your workforce?

what a croc.......
 

Ive been sitting on the sidelines for some time now but i cant hold it in any longer.........

the harsh reality is that the people that voted yes to the pension deal (for which i wasnt one!!) were duped and conned by a scare mongering company which was very quick to tell you about the company going bust and everyone worse off if you didnt say yes but strangely not too quick to mention......where should we start.....heathrow tower 45 milliion......120 million to the spanish as compensation......record profits.....paying off the airlines............the list goes on.

unfortunatly NATS as we knew it has changed, it is now a business as we keep getting told.

well its a two way street, you wanna be a business thats ok with me.

NATS employee's need to now treat their employer as a business. so i want a pay rise for the work i do, i know the economies in the real world arnt great but thats not my problem and while my business, sorry company, can afford to give the fat cats 13% and million pound handshakes it can afford to give me a fair pay deal!!!

furthermore.....after being screwed on the pension i will in future years be looking to make up my pension shortfall.....

NATS in the recent pension briefings said that they werent allowed to pay into pension etc something to do with non profit making crap. well, were a business so lets act like it. lets actually grow some balls and say to those who need to be told....."instead of spending money on this really expensive project that has cost millions that probably wont work if it gets to fruition, why cant we spend it on looking after our professional hard working staff!!!"

AMAN.......oops typo ment amen - do you think praying is more or less effective than AMAN

rant over and feel better now..thanks

Hardball...
 

....long time employee,first time poster.

Regarding the pension vote; after attending two briefings,talking at length to union reps and fighting my way through the paperwork I came to the conclusion that yes was the way to go.Albeit with a shorter time to serve than many it was not only for selfish reasons.I would be interested to know how many of the more strongly opinionated of us (I include myself in that) particularly those who have voiced pretty strident criticisms of the part the union has played in negotiations both past and present are continuing to take AAVAs....and also act as OJTIs and LCEs.

I have never done an AAVA as a point of principle though I do not criticise those who do,it is after all agreed by the union (ie.you and I).I have also withdrawn from training.

If you guys really want to play hardball and protest about the pension vote but more particularly about the pay rise or lack thereof I would suggest that far from sitting back and letting our reps take all the flak it is time to use your own dry powder and refrain from taking the thirty pieces of silver (overtime) that mask the true state of the staffing situation.

We all know that this would send a greater signal to management about the feeling on the shop floor than anything else...but is a few hundred quid here and there too much of a price to ask?

Gapster.

I am with you on the withdrawl of AAVA's.
Unfortunately though, untill the union lead the charge and we as a collective stop doing AAVA's there will always be someone to pick up the slack and do it.
If a handful of people stop doing them then that isn't really going to make much of a difference. This is why we have a union.
Personally, I am waiting to see where these pay talks go and what result we get before I do anything rash such as giving up my 2nd sector, training etc, etc... Although I must admit I have slowly started to withdraw from anything 'extra curricular' since the pension result. But I am biding my time for giving up the 'big' things.....

People on here saying they will stop doing AAVAs, give up the 3rd sector etc etc, will not make a blind bit of difference to the grand scheme of things. It must be a very small percentage of ATCOs who use these forums, as according to PPRUNES unofficial ballot, the pension was a definate NO vote. Ones person refusing to do an AAVA is an extra AAVA for someone else. One person giving up a 3rd sector, is another person not getting an EG. Refusing to train a TATC, well have they not been screwed enough over the years by ATCOs.
Bottom line is, we are like every other work force in the UK . Management are the enemy. We can moan all we like and threaten to do this and that. All this and that will achieve though is we will end up shooting ourselves in the foot (early gos ETC). We probably had our chance on the pensions and we blew it big time. I believe we had management rattled for a while, CEO special visits, extra pension briefs,CEO responding on the intra net. We wont get that chance again.

AAVAs
 

Dead right KL...especially re collective will to stop doing overtime.

Regarding training,LCE,second sectors etc. I don't necessarily see those as the first line of attack/defence (depending on ones point of view).

My real beef lies with AAVAs and unfortunately I can't see the union being able to fight that one as the agreement lasts until 2011 (as you have probably worked out I am a bit fed up with all the union bashing going on but this I didn't agree with or see the sense in) although they can withdraw from that agreement I understand with some amount of notice.This would most definitely be seen as an extremely hostile stance and I don't think the time is right for that so back to us as individuals.

I have been around long enough to know that there are always those willing to take the cash but if we really feel as unhappy with - let's be honest - not just the pension/pay issues but the direction this company has headed ever since PPP now more than ever we should be standing up for ourselves.

Oh jeez!.....first post today and starting to feel like one of those mad ranters on Talk Radio but if you really think that EGs are the issue here well let's give up the fight right now to ensure a 21.00 hrs go.

Last one for today,thanks for listening.

Getting an EG is not an issue for me. All I am saying is that no matter what we do, we wont all do together. I dont do AAVAs, but one person giving them up will not be noticed as others will step in.. Not everyone will give up that 3rd sector and others will begin training on a 3rd sector, so the only effect of one or two giving up a 3rd sector is less EG and less breaks, and that wont really hurt management. We had one chance to do something together as one and 60 percent went one way, and 40% went the other.

According to the Prospect January newsletter which is floating around various OPs rooms, there is a huge gulf between management and the Union with regards to pay.

It goes on to say that talks are scheduled for Feb and March. If management do not look like budging from their hard nosed stance, I as a Union member would like to think that things were progressed (whatever way) quicker than March :=

It seems an awful long way off to me. It's obviously not going to happen this year, but just once in my career, I'd like to see a pay rise come in on time instead of always being months late... it's not as if the pay negotiations come as a surprise when they are due :ugh:

GAPSTER

You say you voted 'Yes' for the pension (as is your right), but then you go on to say you have given up training, and the way it is written, it comes across as though you have done so as some sort of stance. Surely the two actions are at odds with each other?

If not, and you have merely given up training because you no longer wish to do it then is it not a little hypocritical of you to say what you have??

Especially as you voted 'yes'!

Good question. We asked that of senior NSL management, and the answer was that they were investigating various options, all of which seemed to end in the phrase "to try and stop people leaving", rather than "to try and tempt/entice/persuade people to stay"

Might well backfire; some who have never seriously thought about leaving are doing so now, and others might well decide to definitely get out while the door is still ajar.... :eek:

Gonzo...I wouldn't be surprised if the company tried going down the road many airlines do with their pilots, bonding ATCO's for a specific period of time. It will not stop the current situation...but will stem the flow.......or they could bring salaries in line:E:E:E i know what my money would be on:(