I did say that Voting No could cost jobs and I stand by that. At it's most extreme failing to address the pension costs could cause the company to go bust and as I've said before I think a lot of non ATCO jobs wouldn't survive that. Even without going bust an increase in pension costs would only add to the apparent shortfall in the CP2 budget and if the current shortfall could only be addressed by job losses it seems reasonable to conclude that a bigger shortfall would need more job losses.

I didn't say there would be no job losses if we voted yes but I do believe that voting yes has meant less job losses than if we had voted no.

Hhhmmm, I think you underestimate other peoples opinion of me if you believe they'd listen to my telling them how to vote (as well as inflating my opinion of myself in thinking they'd listen).
I'm not a union member for a variety of reasons but negotiation (or working together) between union representatives and management is the only way the workforce's views etc. are presented and responded to (or not as the case may be). Because I do not wish to join a union it effectively closes the door to my being heard and I don't feel thats right. That leaves open the option of trying to influence (not tell) other people who are union members. I very much doubt I managed that on here as this site is mainly populated by the very vociferous, vocal minority of nay sayers and negative minded people. Hence my 'absence' of late, I'm bored with reading moans and whinges in here when I'm working in the real world with a lot of very positive people who have a "can do" not a "can't do" attitude.

BD

Radarspod

And writing it :}

But seriously, NATS can well afford to keep its full time staff, why did they employ them in the first place? If their business plan was wrong,it's their managers who need to go, and some are going soon with a shed load of money! How many millions do you think NATS have wasted over the last few years? Perhaps some "expert" on here can tell us? :)

MACC staff should have received their voluntary redundancy acceptance letters this morning. 30 posts or thereabouts.

BD

The majority of the negative comments on here are posted by operational staff who have to put up with things that those with can do attitudes have brought in...

AMAN, N601, TC SE LOW changes etc.

Sometimes letting off steam is the best way for these operational staff who have to get on and do their jobs with badly implemented tools, or poorly thought out airspace redesigns. Unfortunately comments books etc are not heeded.

So people will let of steam here, and tell it like they see it - it's often a good way of getting frank and open discussions between different sets of staff.

I'd even go as far as to state that some of the threads on PPRuNe (more the ones of a technical nature, not the pay or pension ones), have probably resulted in some benefit.

Unfortunately these people don't talk to the people who "have to do". I'm not against change and try not to whinge as much as i can, but i do get fed up of people with a "can do" attitude foisting stuff on us without talking to us in the first place. And then saying well you'll just have to make it work! :ugh:

Careful 1985, that's teetering on the verge of common sense, and we all know what that leads to....

Is that across the board or just a specific group ?

You illustrate my point beautifully thank you. Pointing out only the very few things which haven't gone well and not the majority of things which have gone well. For some people the glass is always going to be half empty.

BD

The majority of "things" that go well must go so well that we don't even realise they exist on the shop floor. My experience has been somewhat different with the majority of new technology implemented since we (TC) graced the southern shores with our presence having been implemented in a rather half arsed manner. CAIT is the only thing that springs to mind as being introuced in a reasonably efficient manner.

How was the move down from WD? Pretty good I thought from the very minor part I played. However I'm sure I'm wrong and it was absolutely atrocious, really badly handled, appalling and rubbish, why did we ever move from the excellent ops room we had at WD etc. etc.
No one likes change but some people seem to handle it better than others :ok:

BD

Manch and Scottish, 45 ATSA's offered VR, 15 by Nov 2009, 30 by Nov 2010

BD

the three things I mentioned just happened to be the latest 3 things to hit the Ops room, it was by no means an exhaustive list.

The two new airspace changes have not even happened yet, but they do not enhance the operation (N601 from a TC perspective - it has merits from an AC one). In fact N601 actually makes the TC Mids controllers job more difficult!

As for the move from WD - lets see:

VCCS, only just recently became stable after 14 months - but we still cannot cross couple more than 2 frequencies. As the very fiorst person on the day of opening to get hit by a VCCS failure, it's a pretty sore subject with me.

Radar screens - BARCO displays regularly flickering (not nice to witness when controlling) - according to engineers they are not allowed to purchase the expensive digital graphics cards that would solve the problem because of cost, therefore instead they are going to try other inferior cards.

Headsets - poorly designed, expensive flimsy rubbish.

Even down to the nitty gritty of domestic issues...

Carpet tiles that don't stay stuck down - may sound silly but a health hazard and looks a mess.

Still no colour screens for stack displays.

Seats that are uncomfotable, but again was the most expensive choice - despite feedback prior to the move that they were not ideal.

The WD move was a sucess in that we moved and we stayed, but it's far from perfect.

Do I prefer the working environment I now find myself in - of course - by miles, but I don't walk round with rose tinted glasses. If something is good, I acknowledge the fact, if something could be better, I make a noise about it.

NATS is first and foremost about air traffic CONTROL. Safety is paramount. Since when was good enough, good enough??

The move in itself was seamless and very well handled and I congratulate those involved. It's a pity about the VCCS though. It was atrocious and still is although to a slightly lesser degree now. I also believe it is dangerous but that's another thread for another day. There's also the carpet, AMAN, SAM arrivals airspace and many others which fall under the umbrella of the farcical.

EFD is an up and coming event which I feel will top all of the others by a country mile as far as cock ups go. I really do sympathise with the engineers involved with it.

I agree that some people do blow these things out of proportion but turning a blind eye and declaring failed or flawed projects a success gives them plenty of fuel for their fire.

I'm sure I could tat for your tit and vice versa until the cows come home but this is a thread about pay negotiations and we're straying off track.

I think AC will hold the title for biggest cock-ups when iFACTS eventually raises it's head.

Anyway back to the thread, any news on what happened at the pay meeting on Friday? I hope we let them know exasperated we are!:rolleyes:

ROFL! You guys crack me up :ok:

BD

the last good thing to come in was mode s, that is brilliant. since then everything that has been brought it is balls.

Shortfall? We've been making 50 million profits for each of the last 5 years. I can't wait until this year's financial results are published.

And how much did NATS get from the sale of heathrow tower?