Expect many 'rumours' such as this. I think in PR it is referred to as 'kite flying' (?)...make people expect something awful, then when something ****e but not actually anyway near that bad is offered, they think ts a great deal and they are lucky.

I heard were not doing to bad thanks to the euro?

RPI is a figure obtained from historical data: i.e prices have already gone up by that amount.

Any payrise at RPI will simply bring pay back up to the level prior to the rise in the cost of living. We are all currently, in real terms, getting paid less than what we were last year, notwithstanding any spine point increases.

So please Prospect et al don't let management screw us over using the current economic climate as an excuse. We're still sore from the shafting we received over the pension scheme. NATS have "controlled" one of their biggests costs, now they can give us what's fair.

Plus, the Euro is doing great vs sterling, so drop in revenue is more than compensated by exchange rate changes.

You could always, y'know, tell them where to stick it, or else you won't be at work on Monday? Guess who has more to lose from that scenario?

Not sure where you were when we discussed this on a previous thread but not the case I'm afraid. Eurocontrol adjust the unit rate each month to ensure that what they charge the customers in euros is roughly right in sterling. There will be a small gain because the rate lags the actual exchange rate but it won't be that much.

DAL208

Kite flying or sh!t stirring - I never can tell the difference!

For management to stop the annual pay spine award it would need to re-write our contracts... I can't see that happening.

Prospect have already told management that they have historically insisted on using the Aug RPI as a basis for negotiation, therefore they cannot change procedure just to suit them.

Upon hearing managements offer of a pay freeze, they also informed them that as far as they (Prospect) were concerned, a pay freeze equated to a pay (standard of living) cut and an RPI rise equates to a pay freeze.

Whether that statement is backed up or is just Prospect posturing for the benefit of the crowds remains to be seen.

The fact of the matter is, if management continue to play hardball over the next couple of weeks, Prospect need to stop fannying about and start taking action.

However, this will probably drag on for ages, just like the pension. Prospect have indicated that there were lessons to be learned from the Pension issue (namely communication to the members), lets hope that we get informed officially, and promptly, of what is going on after this weeks BEC.

We will not get a spine point freeze!
Having spoken with my union rep who is on the negotiating team for the pay deal, we will get some sort of payrise.... not sure how much though and he also stated that prospect WERE prepared to play hardball against the company if they continued to push a 0% rise.
Lets hope they communicate well, keep us informed and involved of ALL developments unlike the pension saga.
My personal view would be to give management a date, eg 10th Feb. If they havent come back with a respectable offer that can then open negotiations, the union ballot right away for strike action. No fannying around, straight to the point..... or something to that effect.
I sincerely hope the union can gain back a lot of the lost confidence they have lost over the pension deal. Again, management are chancing their arm and seeing what they can get away with, ala pension deal... please can we learn from this and the union can prove they represent us with strength and confidence.

As a outsider looking in , i see some (i say again some)of you still have no grip on reality and whats happening in the real world of business whilst sat inside your NATS cocoon. You remind me of the the old British Rail Guards who when told by management that they would be losing the danger money allowance ,which was in place as the guards had to physically light the old oil lamps. Replied "but we have always had the allowance " (even though they had gone to electric 10 years previous)
Wake up guys smell coffee, its a whole new world out there now.

(puts on hard helmet and body armour);)

It really isnt, and it's sentiments like that which any company will always say no matter the circumstance.

That argument always makes me think about the bitter (not aimed at you) people who always argue that footballers get paid too much. Actually, no...they dont at all...in fact they do not ever get paid what they are worth. A friend of mine who works high up for one of the biggest companies in the country told me once 'employees can never, in a capitalist system get paid what they are worth to the company...because once they do get paid that amount, they are not worth that amount to the company'. What he meant was no company in the history of the world would ever pay any employee more than he/she is worth to that compamy. Take the footballer example...Mr D Beckham when he was at Man U for example asked for 100k a week. Now Utd would not pay him 100k a week if he and his name and talent did not bring in greater than 100k a week...and he knew that. Footballers get paid how much they are worth to a football team, every employee does.
ATCO's and ATSA's will always simply demand that we get paid what we deserve and are worth to the company, and NATS will never pay us more than that. Its simple...but its true!
Now, its easy to say something like 'oh well the credit crunch changes everything'...well that is an nelievably simplistic viewpoint and i urge fellow prooners not to bite because if people truly believe that, then they will never be pursuaded otherwise!
One thing trafficnotsighted said about the analogy with rail workes could be poignent. I admit im really not conversant with previous pay negotiations etc, but from what i could see, the last pay negotiations went VERY well for ATCO's...at expense of trainees :8 so one could argue to expect an increase on TOP of what was (arguably) a very good pay deal in the first place is unrealistic. Arguably :\

trafficnotsighted.

As an outsider can i assume you know nothing if not very little of our current pension changes of recent?
We have just bailed out NATS to a princely some of tens of millions a year when certain high end figures still receieve a 13% pay rise.
We have always, on insistence of the company taken the previous years RPI as the base of the following years pay deal. Historically that has not been high, now it is and the company doesnt like it.... they cant have it both ways!!!
We fully expect the pay deal in a years time to be bugger all as it will be based on this Augusts RPI.
We do not live in a cocoon, but we all worked our nuts off last summer and this pay deal should reflect that.
Then take into account the recent pension changes, the sectors that us area ATCO's do that is above MUR... to you that means that we do extra work for FREE and above what our contract states (if we were to give these up, which we are perfectly entitled to do NATS would be screwed) and, the fact that NATS continues to post record profits on its intranet for all us to read then you may be able to see why we will fight for a respectable pay rise.

NATS love to use scaremonger tactics. It worked during the pension deal and they are simply trying it all over again.

If the profits are so bloody great, how about rewarding your workforce?

what a croc.......
 

Ive been sitting on the sidelines for some time now but i cant hold it in any longer.........

the harsh reality is that the people that voted yes to the pension deal (for which i wasnt one!!) were duped and conned by a scare mongering company which was very quick to tell you about the company going bust and everyone worse off if you didnt say yes but strangely not too quick to mention......where should we start.....heathrow tower 45 milliion......120 million to the spanish as compensation......record profits.....paying off the airlines............the list goes on.

unfortunatly NATS as we knew it has changed, it is now a business as we keep getting told.

well its a two way street, you wanna be a business thats ok with me.

NATS employee's need to now treat their employer as a business. so i want a pay rise for the work i do, i know the economies in the real world arnt great but thats not my problem and while my business, sorry company, can afford to give the fat cats 13% and million pound handshakes it can afford to give me a fair pay deal!!!

furthermore.....after being screwed on the pension i will in future years be looking to make up my pension shortfall.....

NATS in the recent pension briefings said that they werent allowed to pay into pension etc something to do with non profit making crap. well, were a business so lets act like it. lets actually grow some balls and say to those who need to be told....."instead of spending money on this really expensive project that has cost millions that probably wont work if it gets to fruition, why cant we spend it on looking after our professional hard working staff!!!"

AMAN.......oops typo ment amen - do you think praying is more or less effective than AMAN

rant over and feel better now..thanks

Hardball...
 

....long time employee,first time poster.

Regarding the pension vote; after attending two briefings,talking at length to union reps and fighting my way through the paperwork I came to the conclusion that yes was the way to go.Albeit with a shorter time to serve than many it was not only for selfish reasons.I would be interested to know how many of the more strongly opinionated of us (I include myself in that) particularly those who have voiced pretty strident criticisms of the part the union has played in negotiations both past and present are continuing to take AAVAs....and also act as OJTIs and LCEs.

I have never done an AAVA as a point of principle though I do not criticise those who do,it is after all agreed by the union (ie.you and I).I have also withdrawn from training.

If you guys really want to play hardball and protest about the pension vote but more particularly about the pay rise or lack thereof I would suggest that far from sitting back and letting our reps take all the flak it is time to use your own dry powder and refrain from taking the thirty pieces of silver (overtime) that mask the true state of the staffing situation.

We all know that this would send a greater signal to management about the feeling on the shop floor than anything else...but is a few hundred quid here and there too much of a price to ask?

Gapster.

I am with you on the withdrawl of AAVA's.
Unfortunately though, untill the union lead the charge and we as a collective stop doing AAVA's there will always be someone to pick up the slack and do it.
If a handful of people stop doing them then that isn't really going to make much of a difference. This is why we have a union.
Personally, I am waiting to see where these pay talks go and what result we get before I do anything rash such as giving up my 2nd sector, training etc, etc... Although I must admit I have slowly started to withdraw from anything 'extra curricular' since the pension result. But I am biding my time for giving up the 'big' things.....

People on here saying they will stop doing AAVAs, give up the 3rd sector etc etc, will not make a blind bit of difference to the grand scheme of things. It must be a very small percentage of ATCOs who use these forums, as according to PPRUNES unofficial ballot, the pension was a definate NO vote. Ones person refusing to do an AAVA is an extra AAVA for someone else. One person giving up a 3rd sector, is another person not getting an EG. Refusing to train a TATC, well have they not been screwed enough over the years by ATCOs.
Bottom line is, we are like every other work force in the UK . Management are the enemy. We can moan all we like and threaten to do this and that. All this and that will achieve though is we will end up shooting ourselves in the foot (early gos ETC). We probably had our chance on the pensions and we blew it big time. I believe we had management rattled for a while, CEO special visits, extra pension briefs,CEO responding on the intra net. We wont get that chance again.

AAVAs
 

Dead right KL...especially re collective will to stop doing overtime.

Regarding training,LCE,second sectors etc. I don't necessarily see those as the first line of attack/defence (depending on ones point of view).

My real beef lies with AAVAs and unfortunately I can't see the union being able to fight that one as the agreement lasts until 2011 (as you have probably worked out I am a bit fed up with all the union bashing going on but this I didn't agree with or see the sense in) although they can withdraw from that agreement I understand with some amount of notice.This would most definitely be seen as an extremely hostile stance and I don't think the time is right for that so back to us as individuals.

I have been around long enough to know that there are always those willing to take the cash but if we really feel as unhappy with - let's be honest - not just the pension/pay issues but the direction this company has headed ever since PPP now more than ever we should be standing up for ourselves.

Oh jeez!.....first post today and starting to feel like one of those mad ranters on Talk Radio but if you really think that EGs are the issue here well let's give up the fight right now to ensure a 21.00 hrs go.

Last one for today,thanks for listening.

Getting an EG is not an issue for me. All I am saying is that no matter what we do, we wont all do together. I dont do AAVAs, but one person giving them up will not be noticed as others will step in.. Not everyone will give up that 3rd sector and others will begin training on a 3rd sector, so the only effect of one or two giving up a 3rd sector is less EG and less breaks, and that wont really hurt management. We had one chance to do something together as one and 60 percent went one way, and 40% went the other.

According to the Prospect January newsletter which is floating around various OPs rooms, there is a huge gulf between management and the Union with regards to pay.

It goes on to say that talks are scheduled for Feb and March. If management do not look like budging from their hard nosed stance, I as a Union member would like to think that things were progressed (whatever way) quicker than March :=

It seems an awful long way off to me. It's obviously not going to happen this year, but just once in my career, I'd like to see a pay rise come in on time instead of always being months late... it's not as if the pay negotiations come as a surprise when they are due :ugh:

GAPSTER

You say you voted 'Yes' for the pension (as is your right), but then you go on to say you have given up training, and the way it is written, it comes across as though you have done so as some sort of stance. Surely the two actions are at odds with each other?

If not, and you have merely given up training because you no longer wish to do it then is it not a little hypocritical of you to say what you have??

Especially as you voted 'yes'!

Good question. We asked that of senior NSL management, and the answer was that they were investigating various options, all of which seemed to end in the phrase "to try and stop people leaving", rather than "to try and tempt/entice/persuade people to stay"

Might well backfire; some who have never seriously thought about leaving are doing so now, and others might well decide to definitely get out while the door is still ajar.... :eek:

Gonzo...I wouldn't be surprised if the company tried going down the road many airlines do with their pilots, bonding ATCO's for a specific period of time. It will not stop the current situation...but will stem the flow.......or they could bring salaries in line:E:E:E i know what my money would be on:(