1. Transit of class E prior to entering class D. Standard initial call of remain outside controlled airspace fails to recognise that for VFR flight, Class E is controlled but no clearance is required.

2. As can happen in the UK - one unit says remain outside controlled airspace but other unit being worked says cleared to join at xxx FL xxx.

3. Remain outside controlled airspace rom a unit that provides FIS only and ignoring the fact that there is an airway in my 12 O'Clock 5nm that is class E.

If the argument goes that pilot could enter unless specifically told not to then why is the call limited to controlled airspace. Does entering Restricted, Prohibited Danger and Temporary Notamed airspace not have similar risks to the flight being talked to?

--------------

throw a dyce,

Perhaps you should read the class E airspace controlled airspace requirements in that big heavy book. ;)

Regards,

DFC

DFC.....

I have to correct you, every, and I repeat every, response from a controller or pilot requires the use of "CALLSIGN" and not just affirm. Something that is sadly lacking from the supposed sharp end in this part of the world.:sad::ugh:

Someone should print this thread out and take it to the next TRM session!

Name your airport Left Bass we will see who gets fed up first :ok: ;)

Cheers louby :) and your forgivenfor putting us through the localiser so often :p

I still remember telling that Captain what was so special about Tuesdays and you confirming it.

control...that was too close for our confort

:O

This thread is a real eye opener.

I always hear controllers on the air and they seem very pleasant, and even seem to be having a good time with the occasional back and forth banter. Now I am wondering if they are all constantly secretly annoyed with my R/T, and the moment the mike is un-keyed they roll their eyes with their co-workers.

Almost seems that at some point, once we are all at 100% standard phraseology that too much voice inflection will be discouraged, and we will be listening to a monotone voice reading a clearance.

Honestly not trying to be a troll, just the amount of annoyance shown here by controllers really has been eye opening.

(If it makes a difference I am a PPL, but I do almost always fly IFR so I can play along in the SoCal system)

You cheeky menace Mad Jock! :p
Coz - we mostly are all pleasant types - to be honest - most of these "gripes" are about professional pilots - not the GA guys.

louby

I did not specify callsign because as far as I am concerned it should be a given that the callsign would be used appropriately in all transmissions. I do agree that many people at the pointy end need assistance with this important issue.

However, if you want to be 100% correct you will see in the rules that once an R/T conversation has been established between two stations the two stations concerned can drop their callsigns. :D

Regards,

DFC

Today at Leeds the TWR guy took an extensive briefing of all the options to a certain A/C about flying through their filed IFR flightplan or take a more direct routing with FIS. On which the A/C replied "say again" whereafter TWR gave an even more extensive brief on the options, eventually stating "do you wish to proceed controlled or uncontrolled". Which finally made the point.
The last 4 mins of the transmission we where standing with engines running waiting to taxi...
If the TWR guy had just started with that final sentence it would have saved 5 mins of blattering around on TWR frequency, or just invite the guy to the tower for a cup of coffee.

Also annoying the terrible quality of transmission of most UK controllers compared to german/scandinavian/dutch. Especially when you can hear other aircraft replying very crisp and clear (and much louder...)

Shy torque,
Not all countries are the same, in the land of touques and poteen just establishing two way comms allows aircraft to enter controlled airspace.

DFC,
How would you like me to put it then, "Remain clear of controlled airspace that you require a clearance to enter." or "standby, I'll get back to you but don't just continue on into the zone I'm controlling without a specific clearance from me." But I do take your point on board and will bear it in mind when talking to a/c in the vicinity of class E. Oh, I think Ferris was referring to certain airlines who always say 'confirm' in response to anything and sometimes with both crew members trying to speak at once!!

FT

Bittertwisted,

Here are the two relevant parts from ICAO Annex 10;

5.2.1.7.3.3.2 After contact has been established, continuous
two-way communication shall be permitted without further
identification or call until termination of the contact.

5.2.1.7.3.3.3 In order to avoid any possible confusion,
when issuing ATC clearances and reading back such clearances,
controllers and pilots shall always add the call sign of
the aircraft to which the clearance applies.

The above means that when a clearance is issued, the callsign must be included. However, the first paragraph says that the following conversation is perfectly correct;

ABC123 Seaton Control Cleared direct ZZZ FL350

Cleared direct ZZZ FL350 ABC123

Can you accept FL390

Is direct YYY available at FL390

Afirm

Roger we can accept FL390

ABC123 maintain FL350 expect further higher in 5 minutes

Maintain FL350 ABC123

--------------

I see that some on here have a pet hate of;

London ABC123 request

ABC123 pass your message


I think that while the word "request" may be incorrect, the use of "London ABC123" is perfectly correct when it is desired to confirm that the station the message is directed to is ready to receive the message;

ICAO Annex 10;

5.2.1.7.3.2.5 Communications shall commence with a call
and a reply when it is desired to establish contact, except that,
when it is certain that the station called will receive the call,
the calling station may transmit the message, without waiting
for a reply from the station called.

So if I want to say something and do not want the "Sorry I was on the telephone" response I think that "London ABC123" is very appropriate.

Since the UK publishes no difference to the above ICAO standards there is nothing wrong with their use.

Regards,

DFC

DFC, your knowledge of ICAO Annex 10 makes me horny.

Agree 100% and you will probably agree that in practice the callsign is used more often than ICAO say it is necessary. There are a few notables who use it less also!

However, one can not complain when people do what the book says.

Regards,

DFC

NATS 'Best Practice' in the UK is not to include the actual Flight Level if using the phrase 'Maintain'. This is because there is a chance the wrong level might be mentioned (human error is always a possibility) and in some States the pilot can take the 'Maintain' to be a clearance to change level.

Plug the Swiss Cheese holes :ok:

As one in the 'pointy end', my pet hate is pilots asking "any chance of.....?". The reply ,of course, should always be "No f*****g chance whatsoever!" But naturally, you chaps/esses are much too polite.
Off topic, there was a soccer team some years ago apparently called "Norfolk Enchants"!
Best not to be too anal-retentive with R/T -humour is what the world turns on.

"Over and out!!!"

self explanatory.

But i heard this only once from a professional,i reckon it was maybe jetlag.:E

But hear it on many occasions from non-professionals.

Sorry chaps and chapettes of LHR & LGW but you may be hearing a few more 'fully ready' calls and a lack of ATIS letters. The quote above is taken from our briefing matter and shows why BAW may be guilty of the aforementioned sins.

As for me, most of my pet hates have already been mentioned:
'London, ABC123 Request'....you know the rest
'If available'
US carriers and their constant whining about ride reports and freakin' 'light chop'....NOBODY CARES
XPDR codes 'coming down' or 'with a flash'....give me strength
Australians are always 'on climb' or 'on descent'. Why is everybody else in the World 'climbing' or 'descending'?

Okay, back to my chanting exercises before braving US airspace again later ;)

"Zis is the guard frequency!"
"You're on guard."
"Can't you do this on another frequency!?"

All from commercial pilots during GA practise Pans on 121.5................which is permitted in the UK.

If you don't like it, lobby NATS to provide a VHF frequency for practise Pans - the military have a UHF one.

NATS don't provide the Distress and Diversion service, the UK MoD does. You'd be better lobbying them or the CAA.

NATS only provides the D&D equipment and facilities under contract to the MoD.

Whoever you lobby, don't do it on 121.5!
:ok: