i got in on my second attempt, after i wasn't "assertive enough" in the group exercise the first time (i was being polite). anyways, long story short, i was training in tully this year and found the training and management exceptionally poor. nepotism is rife, and the company culture quite disgusting. DMCman, you dodged a bullet.

DMCman - I strongly encourage you follow your dreams and apply again. You will always be wondering "what if" otherwise.
I've been doing the job for 6yrs now after having a previous professional occupation and it seriously is the best thing I have ever done. I have amazing managers in the centre and my colleagues make every single day an absolute joy, not to mention the job is so satisfying and rewarding. Yes the hours can be tough, but a lot of my friends have great working hours yet can't stand their jobs/bosses. So it's a small trade off.

You get out of the training what you put in. ATTITUDE is huge! Put in extra hours after class each day, have study sessions on weekends with colleagues, go to the instructors and ask if one would be happy to stay back an hour after the shift to go over some things. So many trainees used to blame all their struggles on everyone else other than themselves and ATC is all about taking ownership for your own mistakes and being able to immediately put your hand up when you're at fault (or not!!).

Go for it. It's so worth it.

September 2016 Assessment center
 

Hi everyone,

I attended the assessment centre in Sydney mid September with 5 more guys. I got an email yesterday with an 'update your referees' message. I wonder what happened with the rest of you guys, I can only hope you all get good news, you were a nice bunch. Btw, I was the foreigner.

Good luck everyone.

M

Testing
 

Hey Guys, wanting to hear from anyone who has recently completed the process from online test and compare it to the assessment day

Is the online test a reflection of what is to come in the assessment day testing or is it more of a general IQ test to cull a large number of applications?

Can you recommend any way to practice or prepare for this so you know what type of test questions you may be faced with?

I researched this forum and came across this post from 2008, is this the same format they currently use for the assessment days?

Thanks in advance :)


The Numerical Reasoning Test was 60 multiple choice questions to be completed in 40 minutes. They were all questions about speed, distance and time and they got harder towards the end of the test. Using aircraft speed, so the km/h numbers were quite large.

While were doing this test, there was another test running simultaneously. This was the Interrupt Test. A cassette tape was playing in the background the entire time and every now and then a voice would say "Pens Down - Listen". Then it would say a set of instructions for us to complete on a separate answer sheet in front of us. There were 25 questions and the question sheet included various sets of patterns, numbers, letters, shapes, etc. The instructions got more complicated as time went on. They were not repeated so you had to get them right first time.

An easy example - "Put a circle in the 2nd box from the left and a cross in the last box"

A hard exampe - "Circle all the vowels in the list that follow a consonant, but if that consonant is W or J then underline the consonant following the vowel."

Obviously designed to see how well we coped when interrupted.

Next - the SORT Test. Two shapes would appear side-by-side on the screen for about 2-3 seconds. If they were identical we pressed the F2 key on the keyboard. If they weren't, then we had to sort the left pattern depending on certain categories. There were about 9 phases of this test. And they rotated between having to sort by colour (Red / Green / Blue), by shape (Square / Circle / Triangle / Diamond) or by number (0-250 / 251-500, etc)

Apart from the speed of the test, it was complicated by presenting over-riding rules that were presented at the top of the screen. These rules varied from "Sort all green triangles as blue shapes" to "If the digits add up to more than 10, then pretend the number is 555". Sorting by colour and shape wasn't terribly difficult, but everyone had a lot of trouble with the number sorting. Given the short space of time they flashed on the screen, it was incredibly had to read the number (which was in smallish print), add up the digits, remember where the cutoff points for the sorting categories were, etc.

The rules sometimes would be vaild for a number of turns, sometimes for 1 turn, and sometimes none at all.

It was testing for reaction speed as well as accuracy.

The 3rd test was another 2-in-1 test.

There was a line on the right-side of the screen and a small square on the left. The square would move towards the line at various speeds each time. About halfway along the screen, the square would disappear and we had to press a button when we thought it had reached the line. That was the Time Estimation part. Scores were based on how far before or after the line we got the square.

To complicate matters was the Pattern Recognition Test. While the square was invisible and moving towards the line, up would appear 2 patterns we had to identify as either "Same" or "Different". Again, the score was based on speed and accuracy. It was like comparing the dots on two dice, except that instead of a square they were in a blue circle and instead of 6 dots, there were 13 positions the dots could be in. Not easy to do quickly when you're trying to remember how quickly the square was moving in the background, but I managed OK there.

The last test was some Practice ATC. We were given a simple square are of airspace and we had to guide planes around to their correct destinations safely and with minimal delay. The were 2 air strips we had to land planes on and 4 small gates we had to fly planes out of (N, S, E, W). As each plane appeared on the radar, we had to click on it to recognise it was there, and then guide it through one of the gates or to an airstrip depending on it's destination. We had to make sure they were at the right speeds, direction and altitude. This was over a period of about 20 minutes. At most there were about 12 planes on the screen at once. It's really just a computer game.

Travel Discount? Standby Travel?
 

Hi there. Just wondering if Airservices ATC are offered any air discounts or stand-by status with any of the airlines?

You get 90% off all flights.. 80% off all hotels. 45% off new Ferrari's and when you do an overtime shift Management will try and take 25% off your hours so they can meet their KPI's for their pay rises.

re: "You get out of the training what you put in. ATTITUDE is huge! Put in extra hours after class each day, have study sessions on weekends with colleagues, go to the instructors and ask if one would be happy to stay back an hour after the shift to go over some things. So many trainees used to blame all their struggles on everyone else other than themselves and ATC is all about taking ownership for your own mistakes and being able to immediately put your hand up when you're at fault (or not!!). " (Gemmy)

this is not actually true for everyone. if you don't live up to the macho masculine culture, get sick, or fall out of arbitrary favour, or are just unlucky, the instructors will completely give up on you, and no matter how much you try to get their support, they will brush you aside, or even go so far as to sabotage your success. i have seen it happen.

they will indeed bend over backwards for you, but only if they like you, and that is entirely arbitrary, and has nothing at all to do with how much effort you put in or your attitude (although i'm sure some lazy or unpleasant people have also garnered that treatment as well).

don't be discouraged if you wish to pursue this career. just be mindful that it isn't the best of employers, and make sure you keep any issues you have to yourself. grin and bear it, use a poker face, do what you need to, but don't trust them to care at all about you, and anything resembling criticism freaks out their little egos quite easily.

"even go so far as to sabotage your success" is quite some claim. How precisely would the instructors do that?

some ways include (not limited to) misleading study advice, arbitrary exam marking and no legitimate review mechanisms.

if they don't like you, you have zero chance to succeed. they are very petty so DO NOT confide in or question them. if you can stomach being a sycophant, you'll go far.

eltouha, sounds an awful lot like the excuses of the desperate to avoid accepting failure.........

"Nepotism is rife"? Uhh huh. Sort of difficult when the vast majority of us aren't related.

I have been an ab initio instructor several times over my career, both in the classroom and simulator. What you allege cannot happen. The Academy is a Registered Training Organisation and subject to external oversight and audits. The exams and answers have to go through a separate vetting process prior to being used - beyond the instructor's control. If a trainee isn't happy with the marking, another instructor will also mark the paper. The answers have already been checked by the approval process.

As an RTO, students have both internal and external avenues of appeal and they use them. A corrupt instructor could not hide.

An ATC is required to have 100% knowledge. After an exam, the papers are handed back to the students and the instructor goes through the errors, explains the correct answers and the AIP/MATS references.

My experience is that too many students treat ATC learning as they treated school. They think that attendance will lead to success. They don't put in maximum effort to achieve the high standard required for field operations.

le pingouin, i see you don't understand what nepotism is. smh. as for your assumption about me, well, did i say it was done to me?

believe what you wish. i know what i saw, and can name names but won't stoop to that level. the point of my posts is to advise new trainees to keep their thoughts to themselves. do not trust those people.

knackers, that is how it should happen. but it doesn't happen for all students. there were a few good instructors, but not many. students have left the organisation in disgust.

Umm, checked a dictionary?

Nepotism: favouritism granted to relatives, patronage bestowed or favouritism shown on the basis of family relationship, the unfair practice by a powerful person of giving jobs and other favours to relatives.

I've made no assumptions other than saying what you've written "sounds an awful lot like the excuses of the desperate to avoid accepting failure".

Just a quick question for you folks.
I've been in the same job for the past 15 years, and I feel it's time for a change.
I joined the Australian Defence Force straight out of school so I did not go to uni, therefore I don't have the education requirements needed to become an ATC.

The only reasonable way I see of gaining the education requirement is by getting my PPL. Would this method be frowned upon during the recruitment phase? If I submitted an application with a PPL only a couple months old, would that raise alarms?

I know it's a bit of a risk spending all that money on a pilots licence when I may not even get past the first round of the testing. However, I have always been interested in getting a pilots licence so I don't see it as wasted money if I don't get selected.

benjimoomoo, I'd ring recruitment at AsA and ask whether based on your background it would be worthwhile applying "as is" (bearing in mind I don't think they are recruiting at the moment, apart from 457 visas).

Benjimoomoo,

I have gone through the whole selection process lately and I don't believe they care how you got your minimum requirements. If you pas the benchmark, you pass, that simple.

Btw, how come you can only see the PPL as an alternative? A TAFE diploma should be pretty easy for someone who aspire to be an ATC, and much, much, much, cheaper than PPL. I'd certainly go for that if I was in your place, moreover, you might even get a job with a diploma (don't expect the same with your PPL)

benjimoomoo,

I was in a similar situation, joined the ADF a couple of years out of school. I was obtaining my PPL whilst in the ADF and was waiting to complete it to submit my application for ATC.

I think I basically received my PPL in the mail and submitted the application that same evening. I guess they didn't see it as a bad thing as I am now a couple of weeks away from becoming a rated controller.

If you have any questions feel free to send me a PM.

Hi all,
I failed the OPQ assessment unfortunately :( They didn't provide me with any follow up as to why. I am only allowed to reapply once more in a years time. What would ones chances be of getting through the selection process a second time around?
Are there any of you that have had this happen to them and made it through after reapplying a second time?

Me. Missed out on my first go. Apply again, nothing to lose either way. You might end up with a job you enjoy doing and get paid well for it.

Hello all,

Just a quick question for all you guys, I see applications are currently closed, is there a common time of year applications are normally opened? Also I know the process is often quite long, if I was to pass through all stages how long would it be expected to take from application to getting the yay/nay?

Thanks!

Downsizing
 

It is said ASA is downsizing----cutting 900 employees at the end and now 500 has already gone......

Could anyone give a confirm?

Yes, downsizing is occurring on that scale but it doesn't include any controllers.

That seems a good news! It is a huge number. Can the downsizing improve the efficiency of ASA?

Who knows? Depends on how much of the savings are dumped straight into governmental consolidated revenue. There have been hefty cuts made to sections that support ATC - we'll be making do with less which certainly isn't going to enhance the service we provide.

Negativity?
 

After having read choice excerpts from the thread, it strikes me that there seems to be lots of negativity surrounding ATC in general, not just in the training process, but also within the job itself.

I'm currently working on a diploma to meet the requirement to apply, so I was wondering if anyone could give me the lowdown on whether or not I've wasted my precious time and money setting myself on this path?

That's largely up to you - like all jobs and organisations there are things that are good & things that are not so much. They are what they are and how you handle them/are affected by them is an individual thing (personality, personal circumstances). Yes, we get restructured periodically, managers obsess with "projects" and government interferes from time to time, but that's hardly unique.

PPrune is an Internet forum - it's where people come to bitch, moan and vent, so needs to be read with that in mind. You don't get people here saying how good things are very often. The training is hard and there is a high attrition rate (historically roughly 50% who start the course fail to attain a rating) - some people have trouble accepting failure and need to blame something, rather than accept that maybe they just can't do the job.

Personally, I've been doing the job (and flight service before it) for 25+ years, still enjoy it and just ignore the bull**** (mostly). It's not a job for everyone and no amount of hard work will get you over the line if you can't pull the various skills required into a whole. Be prepared to be flexible and don't expect things to be done the way you want them - you have to fit within a system that has a fairly rigid framework. Not saying there isn't room for individuality (there very definitely is) but there are certain aspects that aren't negotiable.

Ansible, if you don't mind me asking what are you studying? Can't PM you..

Hi Aeon05, I completed my assessment centre in June, have also had reference checks completed. I have been asked to do medical etc but no course date for next year. I understand it'll be mid year at the earliest.

Hello all,
I would just like to share where I'm up to in the process of being selected. This is my 2nd and final shot. With my 1st attempt in 2014 I didn't progress past the OPQ.

30/03/16 - Application submitted
09/05/16 - Online ability assessments
15/05/16 - OPQ
14/06/16 - Telephone interview
My Assessment Centre was booked in for the 21/10/16 however this was cancelled
1 month out due to 'current changes in workforce planning'. I'm now waiting for another invitation which should come within the first 6 months of 2017.
I am very happy to still be in the system and that I have a chance of being selected for an amazing career!

Flight Data Coordinator FDC
 

Hi Just seeIng if anyone knows how to become a FDC and what the training involves? Is the training in the academy like ATC ? How do the opportunities become available?
Thanks

Normally internal application processes apply, most likely a transfer from the simulator support group (blippies).

Tequila, sorry about the late reply, haven't had a chance to get on in a while.
I'm studying a Diploma of IT.
I have a degree from yonks ago, but because it was over 10 years ago I can't use it as an entry path to ATC.
I chose IT because it's a field I'm interested in to at least some degree, and (heavens forbid) I don't make it in ATC, this is an avenue I can at least pursue.

le Pengouin, thanks for the reply.
It sounds like just what you said, there is good and bad in all jobs.
It's taken me a long time to realise this, but now I'm here, it's a lot easier to deal with :)

Tower V Enroute courses
 

Hi Can someone inform me of the difference in the courses with Tower and Enroute?

Is the initial theory phase in the academy similar between Enroute and Tower?

Has someone transfered from Enroute to tower here? How did they find the transition?

Someone mentioned that with tower - you have to make decisions a lot faster then Enroute. Is this true?

Is one Stream more "difficult" then the other?

Is someone able to describe what they believe would be the "common difficult/errors in tasks students would make in training? Eg Enroute - back coord, loss of separation - eg identifying 4th aircraft but missing the 5th

Thanks in advance!

Everyone thinks that at the start. By the time you reach 50 you will realize the amazing career has taken the one thing that you need- your health. Enjoy the 30 years of fatigue.

Mikk
Could you elaborate on this further please? Is this duecto shift work? The job itself? Stress?

mdk2015, I'll second mikk_13. Once you reach early to mid 50s, it really starts to bite. Shift work, especially night shifts. Constant change and training. Added to that, having to be an OJTI. It's ok at first but after training the first dozen or so, it starts to drain.

The rosters are run super tight. You will be required to perform over time regularly. It is unlikely that you can change shifts as there is no one available to change with, so you will miss every major event in your marriage, children or social life unless you know it is coming 18 month is advance and can apply for leave. As far as I know leave planning is rolling and requires 18 month notice because there is not enough staff.

The fatigue comes from rotating rosters like doing a 6am start, finishing work at 1300 and returning to work at 2300 for a night shift. This is legal, I have personally done it many times. It is ok for the first night, but then when you do 0600-1300, 2300-0600 the same night, then again 2200-0600, you will be like a zombie.

You don't realize the level of fatigue until you stop doing it.

To quote the late BFD http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/121...ml#post1208829
One day you will get a trainee who merely triples your workload.

Hi is anyone aware of what courses will be run for enroute this year?