Another nail in the MACC morale coffin.
 

So, as well as the prospect of losing staff in numbers from the unit, a morale boosting new set of initiatives seem to be being pursued by some managers/ supervisors at MACC.

- restrictions on summer leave.
- re-juggling the summer leave period.
- extending the sub-roster.

- NICE ONE! - just what we needed.

Mahaba,

Would this not be better placed in the NATS private forum?

Surely the local union reps will have an input to the proposed changes though?

Another nail in the MACC morale coffin
 

anotherthing,
Surely this should be posted on a public forum. NATS afterall is a Public Private Partnership is it not? The government are the biggest shareholder, and in a democracy is that not "Government of the people, by the people, for the people?"

Zooker... Are you joking? The UK is not a democracy and hasn't been for years. The PM is a Dictator in this place....

Don't apply for a posting to TC then, 1 and 3 happen there as well! :rolleyes:

Join the club.

1 and 2 at our Unit. (Probably 3 as well if I knew what a sub roster was!)

You know what to do - get your Union reps to sort it out if your not happy.

What is a sub-roster?

Sub-roster - alternatively know as "the sh*tty stick roster".

Lots of day shifts and not your regular 6on, 4off pattern - we do 5on 2off, 4on, 3off.

It's basically a way for management to screw more days work out of you and to make you eat up your leave quicker - you need to take 9 days leave to get a 2 week break instead of 6 when you're on a regular roster.

Before anyone jumps down my throat - I know the hours work out about the same as a regular pattern but it sure doesn't feel like it.

That's not what I thought was meant by sub-roster, we don't do that at TC fortunately, so scrub 3 from my earlier reply!

Prospect must have agreed to it though mustn't they otherwise why are you doing it?

When we dropped one controller off nights for a month last year we found when we weren't on nights we would be working 6 on, 2 off, 1 on, 1 off before coming back for the 6 on. This has always been the case with the non nightshift cycle, but I agree with Chimaera - it feels like you have less time off. That said, we must get more days off than the majority of other professions so I can't complain too much!! :)


-HD-

Mahaba, I don't know where you got that from, but it seems an unfounded rumour.

For those that don't know our sub roster is Mon - Fri, and we work 4 shifts of 7 hours. So in effect we work a 28 hour week and have every weekend off. We do it twice a year at most and most people volunteer to do it as it saves taking leave at a weekend. You do it for anywhere between 3 - 6 weeks at a time.

As for it reducing your leave, I don't know where that comes from. I have never had to take leave from the sub roster, I get put back on shift so I get the full 14 days off as per normal.:ok:

Personally, I like it and I know many others do as well. I have spoken with our reps and they know nothing about it other than managers would like to change it so we do more hours (don't they always?), but nothing is planned, and anyway we would get a vote.

The redifining of the summer leave was an initial discussion to help out the ATCO's as there was simply too many of us and not enough leave lines. So as to ensure everyone got their full summer leave (and their was talk of 'junior' ATCO's only being allowed 2 cycles instead of 3) a redefinition of Summer was proposed. A good thing I would suggest.

Morale is all relevant, some people are insuch a state of permanent angst round here they have become almost paranoid!:confused:

28 hours a week and no nights for the same money, where do I sign?

Togo Dawn.

Sorry, can I just confirm that. You work effectively 4 on 3 off, 7 hours a shift? Guaranteed weekend off?

Gonzo, not necessarily 4 on 3 off. You have to work any 4 shifts from 5 in a working week, so you might get a Monday or Friday off or even a Wednesday - just depends on how it falls. Oh and instead of 2 til 10 on an afternoon its 2 til 9.

Notared - nail head hit. Some people round here moan about anything.

Sorry, yes, that's what I meant.

Hmmm, interesting.

Hate to pi$$ on your fire but for at least the last 5 years in AC Swanwick, summer leave is only 2 cycles and then an additional 2 to 4 days depending on your seniority (ie have you gained the additional days for doing 8 or 10 years service) and only if spaces allow the additional days to be taken. Summer leave period runs from 1st May to 30th September which was "re-juggled" about 4 years ago so only 5 months and could be different to other units. I know there is a maximum number of days we can take in this period should the rare chance occur for spaces to be available and think its 18 days (3 cycles). Don't know ANYONE that has had this approved other than for extreme circumstances. Still waiting to book my additional days for this year's summer period and it looks like May, May or May, as for booking a holiday based on that..... :}

Very interesting!!!!!!!!!

5miles, it only makes my point "of looking a gift horse inthe mouth" more relevant ...:cool:

Togo Dawn

You must be blind, you have it all wrong, can't you see.

It's MACC, therefore they are being seen off, whatever the issue. That's the only fact you need to know :}

I heard of someone who posted an unfavourable comment on the NATS intranet and got a good telling off.

That's probably becuase the NATS Intranet is a company owned site and they might not like the apple cart upset by staff :}

The private NATS Forum here on PPRuNe is not company run or influenced so there is some modicum of 'free speech' there :ok:

I have seen some very unfavourable comments on the Intranet and as far as I can see none have been removed or posters admonished for stating their position. If people feel NATS is that bad they should try working in the real commercial world!

Gonzo is correct - the sub-roster is a dream, 4 days a week (or 28 hours), no weekends, and the potential to work at least 4 AAVA's a month for at least £2000 extra before tax - and there are 10 people/month doing that!
Looking at that a different way, those 10 people COULD be working 400 hours/month, a difference of 120 hours or 3 ATCO's! Don't knock it guys!

I and several colleagues have posted some disparaging remarks about the current pension debacle on the Intranet.

Oddly enough they were not favourable to the management, and were actually quite derogatory, mainly in the hope that it would elicit some response (I despair at what appears to be a lack of passion over this issue in particular from the management who are trying to cut benefits yet trot out the same mundane half truths to justify their stance).

To be fair, the comments have not been pulled and no boll:mad:king issued. However that just further amplifies my belief that management believe they can ge away with anything regardless of facts or the feelings of those it will affect and that they believe they can just steamroller the eomplyees!

Sub Rosters are not all the same, some are not good and people cannot wait to get off them back to the normal watch roster. They can be far more tiring due to the times of shifts so whilst Heathrows may be good others are dire.

I seem to remember that it was agreed a few years back between both management and unions that everyone should be able to take 3 cycles leave during the designated summer months, perhaps my memory is failing me or it has been changed .

Lots of interesting stuff here but I'm still waiting for Mahaba to come back and justify the original post. Maybe he's on the sub roster working all of those AAVAs. :=:=

macc sub roster
 

:E Out of curiosity does the Red Barron know about this roster? If not I think he should be told!!!!!!!!

it seems e,,,

Why would he be interested about a perfectly legitimate roster which is within the normal Working Practice rules?:ugh:

Why would The Red Barron get excited about the MACC sub-roster? Allegedly it was agreed by the unions to match staff attendances to traffic levels. Now, according to the Eurocontrol complexity document, MACC comes in at No.5, (TC No.1), LACC at No.28 ( Way down there). Surely the staff at this fairly complex unit (EGCC) should enjoy enhanced relief to cope with what must be intense weekday traffic levels? Also in a profession where safety is paramount, we cannot afford to have fatigued ATCOs on duty?

Why would The Red Barron get excited about the MACC sub-roster? Allegedly it was agreed by the unions to match staff attendances to traffic levels. Now, according to the Eurocontrol complexity document, MACC comes in at No.5, (TC No.1), LACC at No.28 ( Way down there). Surely the staff at this fairly complex unit (EGCC) should enjoy enhanced relief to cope with what must be intense weekday traffic levels? Also in a profession where safety is paramount, we cannot afford to have fatigued ATCOs on duty?

Spot on Zooker. So how come it has already been suggested that those on the roster-and apparently there are up to 10 of them at any time-just use it to maximise AAVAs at what obviously is a busy and complex unit. I guess fatigue goes out of the window where cash is concerned?

I still also can't understand why apparently the 5th most complex and busiest unit in Europe hardly ever puts on a regulation(except for S29, 1st thing in the morning for about an hour):confused::confused: You guys really must be the best. :D:D or my Watch Supervisors have a lot to learn about regulations.

MACC Morale
 

Hey 250kts, (Even the name sounds like a restriction)!
Check this out:-
NATS was recently voted "THE WORLD's BEST ANSP" (by its peers).
Its core values are:- Safety, Service, value, People.
Safety is No.1, Numero Uno. It's what it's all about.
Manchester, (MACC, EGCC or whatever) allegedly recently won an award for safety.
SAYS IT ALL.
For many years, Manchester has been providing an ATC service which can only be described as TOP DRAWER.
Their lack of slot restrictions may be due to a lack of aeros, but listening to these folks working I suspect it is more likely due to sheer professionalism.
Finally, in the "real commercial world", I suspct there are many who put in less hours than the MACC sub-roster team, without their safety accountabilities, and for far greater remuneration.

Mmmmm, Manchester probably had the best improved safety record because it was bloody awful before ... and that comes from the presentation given by their safety team. Top drawer ?? I'd say equal or better now.

They are doing good things these days, and their culture is up there with the best of them. So, well done to those who have helped make the change. It had to be or else we may have been looking at something more serious.

And I don't mean looking at a mobile phone whilst a runway incursion is taking place .....

28 hour week? 6 days leave to get 2 weeks off?

People in the real world work 40+ hour weeks for an average of c. £23k and it takes 10 days leave to get 2 weeks off. They have to turn up when their working day starts and they have to stay till their day is over.

I can see why morale is so low right enough.... Get a grip.

Zooker,

250 kts is actually used for safety reasons so not a restriction at all:ugh:

But you say "but listening to these folks working" suggests that you don't actually work there and are actually not really qualified to comment on the subject of ATC working practices.

You are correct in what you say about the award but need to read the comments from Pprune Radar.

They are part of an organisation which provides a "top drawer" service-full stop.

Not sure what you mean by the "real commercial world" though.

Me Me. It is only 28 hours for the weeks they are on the roster. They will have to make up the hours to a normal 35 hours week elsewhere in the year.

OK Knots, Listen Up:-
250kts is a speed restriction. Heard it on the R/T today. "Standard speed restriction 250 kts" Safety or not it's a restriction no less, as is a level restrriction or a heading restriction.
If the sub roster is "a perfectly legitimate roster within the normal working practice rules" well that's all right then.
I have listened to the R/T for many years and feel well placed to comment.
I may have even heard HD in the 80s, -a great honour Sir.
Taking my scanner, binos and well-thumbed Graham Duke to the top of Mt Belzoni I can often hear the transmissions from the Costa Del Swanwick. And what do I hear? Yawnsville! Contrast this with the MACC frequencies or the myriad of dancing lights often seen in the skies above our capital.
It is amazing how often the voices change. Also I note you often do 2 frequencies at a time. I suppose the theory is "We're No.28, if we do 2 freqs together we'll be No.14, -Only 9 below Manchester!
Finally, Me Me. Most people start and finish work at the appointed times.
I would like to see a flight crew sneak off before the end of their duty. Even 'Goldenballs' (Mr Beckham to you), has to stay until the end of his shift.

Zooker "I have listened to the R/T for many years and feel well placed to comment."

:ugh:

I was laughing hard reading this... Then I started to feel nothing but pity!!!
:eek:

Fidgell,
Feel no pity. I do not have to relocate to the Costa del Saltcoats 2 years from now!!!:

Couldn't make this stuff up, spotters commenting on the interface between LACC (or should that be LAC Swanwick AC or whatever our name is this week) and MACC!

Hey Zooker,

Thanks for the laugh.:D:D

No pity felt from here though-just a shame you aren't in the business, unable to visit a major unit in any official capacity and therefore unlikely ever to become remotely knowledgeable about anything to do with ATC, except from what you pick up on your airband.:{:{

And as for your comment ""We're No.28, if we do 2 freqs together we'll be No.14, -Only 9 below Manchester!"-T**SER!! :eek::eek:

You also say "I have listened to the R/T for many years and feel well placed to comment." That's a bit like saying I've seen B777s overflying and heard them too so I am in a position to comment on the cause of last weeks' accident.

Oh by the way the "myriad of dancing lights often seen in the skies above our capital." are being controlled by who??-I'll let you answer the question yourself.:confused::confused:

Never mind-now maybe you should get back to doing some more under lining in your books!!:E:E:E:E:E:E:E