Irish ATC wages/conditions
 

Ireland Aviation Authority (IAA) are recruiting for Shannon and Dublin Centres on 3 year contracts. They are playing their cards very close to their chest when asked about renumeration packages.
Does any one know what their wage scales are and conditions Irish ATCs are getting at the moment?

The IAA Website was not very helpful about wages/conditions.

Where did you hear about this?

I'm very keen, tell me more. What's on offer??

An aquaintance who is already a jobbing ATCO for the IAA seems think that they'd only discuss salaries if they were going to make a job offer, i.e. you'd have to go through the interview process.
He also said that if they were three year contracts, it's highly likely that it's because they haven't recruited/trained enough of their own recently and it's to cover that shortfall, although there doesn't appear anything to be on the IAA site at the moment.
Word is that although they may have to pay a decent salary to get the experienced atcos they temporarily need, they wouldn't pay relocation costs and you wouldn't be allowed to join the pension scheme.
Would it be worth anyone relocating half way around the world to go there for such a relatively short time? given that the cost of living in Ireland is at least on a par with most of the UK (i.e high), it seems not.
But with plenty of cheap flights to and from the UK, anyone from NATS could commute if they could bear it, thereby taking a very pleasant sabbatical I would have thought.

Hmmm. Rather interesting. What I've found on http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/vacancy.asp is:

Vacancies

There are no vacancies at present, however, if you would like further information on the types of job for which we recruit or to be added to our mailing list, please contact us at or send your CV to:
Human Recourses Division
Aviation House
Hawkins Street
Dublin 2
Or email [email protected]
Please note that sending a CV or merely expressing an interest in a particular career does not constitute an application.
Click here for further information.

' a very pleasant sabattical'....I don't think so... I would definitely talk to some of the controllers especially at Shannon (where you would probably be placed) before you decide on taking up any offers..... .
Rumour is that very long shifts ,100 night duties per year and inability to get leave have led to an all time low in morale in shannon (not sure about Dublin).

irish atc
 

there is no official iaa recruitment drive for direct entry atcos at the moment, however, there is a word of mouth thing going on. for reasons that i wont get into, the iaa are contacting anyone that drops in a cv, or contacts them directly, to see if they would be interested in joining them for a fixed period of time .... 2/3 years - depending on who you talk to.

alwaysmovin has got it mostly right - but the max no. of rostered nights is about 90 per annum.

the iaa recently held a competition for cadets, with a view to starting 2 classes of 24 in 2008. they have only now realised that they cannot release the staff from ops to train this intake ( almost all instructors rotate from ops to training!) so 1 class will start in february, and a second class of 24 is in a holding pool with no definate start date.
the direct entry atcos are to bolster the numbers until the cadets come on line.the iaa and the atco union have had some negotiations on this matter. the atco union view is that once the cadets are trained, the direct entries will not get a renewed contract, as the cadet scheme should continue to provide the required staff!

as for remuneration, i dont have the exact figures, but my understanding is that the starting point of the atco scale will be the base for the direct entries ( about €60k ) with 31 days annual leave - if you can take them!
those figures are open to correction.

morale is low, leave is almost non existant, the roster is tough,in fact there have been 4 different rosters in as many years, to try to fix the staff shortfalls, and another one being planned for april. however dont take my word for it, if you contact the iaa, www.iaa.ie, i'm sure that they will paint a better picture for you!
good luck;)

Email from IAA, but still no money mentioned.......
 

Still not even a hint of what the renumeration package looks like..surely somebody can point us all in the right direction at least.:E

....What can I tell you...morale IS low.....Leave IS non-existent.....Roster IS crap......They had pay negotiations recently and amidst all the promises from our union that a realistic increase of 10-15% would be put to the members for acceptance, a mere 5% was offered..and they want us to accept it!!! Of course I'm open to correction on this. Nights are tough...1st night starts at 12 midnight...and ends at 930am....your knackered!!! 2nd night starts at 9pm and ends at 8am...your knackered!!! Now pay...who knows what they'll start off for direct entries...but you can bet your bottom dollar that it won't even come close to what other providers are giving....salaries at the moment range between 55,000Euro to 100,000Euro (if your working there 150 years!!!!) but those figures all depend on options on getting paid for office holidays or taking the days and a wee bit of overtime, which is plentiful at the minute.....Knowing the I double A, that 3 year fixed contract is more than likely to be extended...we simply don't have enough staff on right now...even with the new cadet classes, I really doubt that they will cover retirements in the next few years....There are a few younger people thinkin of jumpin ship too...oppurtunities are there abroad..why not take them.....I think the IAA will need to make the package extremely attractive.

The Jolly Roger,

Check your PM

As someone who moves around a bit, I am at a loss as to why the IAA think that offering a short-term contract at less dollars than for permanent staff will attract the right candidates?

Short-term contracts need to offer a premium; surely that's a basic contracting principal?

They must also be aware that if they are fishing in the 'global marketplace', they have to offer packages that are competitive with whats on offer in that marketplace? eg, eurocontrol, middle east etc.

As another Irish atco i can confirm everything that has been said here by the Jolly Roger and Irish atco...IF :uhoh:you are interested go in with your eyes open:eek:...the rosters are tough,leave is rarer than golddust morale is non exsistent and bodering on militant.:mad:..knowing the IAA and there detachment from reality expect the pay offer to be low and any promises made to you will not be honoured....:=

Yep

There is no way the IAA:ugh::ugh::ugh: will compete with the money that eurocontrol or the middle east can offer you.....also do not expect that once the contract has finished that you will be kept on either

The low pay is quite ironic considering rumours have it that the IAA themselves got 2 and a half times that figure from other providers for IAA controllers loaned out.....so no excuse for not knowing the going rate....

alwaysmovin makes an excellent point. at the risk of thread drift, or the requirement for a new thread dedicated to the iaa, i think that this analogy sums up the iaa, and therefore its relevant to this particulat thread.

in recent times the iaa has shipped out controllers to germany, holland, and south africa - the south african and dutch contracts ended this year, 2007 - so them stating that this is a new departure for them is technically correct, and yet completely untrue. bottom line is they want to do this as cheap as they can. this sums up the iaa in a nutshell - demand highest standards, pay as little as possible. the fact that the ceo is an accountant by profession, should not surprise anyone.

personnaly i would welcome and benefit from direct entries coming, for the reasons already stated by my colleagues in shannon. but with the actual lack of a package ie no relocation etc, it seems that you make your own way here, your own way home, any paid flights home during the contract? a designated person to help with accomodation etc? these things are fairly standard everywhere else

i wouldn't recommend it, nor have i recommended it to anyone out there.

best of luck if you can negotiate a good package for yourself. but beware of verbal offers, and also vague promises. the iaa have a habit of writing words like

" a bonus may be paid " or

"such and such may be done/paid at the discretion of the company"

you will be told verbally that these mean they will happen - this is not always the case. feel free to pm if you have any queries.

:ok:

Has taking on extra airspace over the last couple of years added to your staffing problems?

taking the airspace has definitely attributed to the staffing problems....its like buying a lot of land and building houses on it with no roads, or services....the iaa should have seen this coming for years. They are, in effect, becoming a little bit of a shambles!!! If your really interested in joining the iaa, negotiate ANY type of contract....get it in writing and then negotiate again.....They are very very short and we need controllers....Any one from the iaa here from the top....listen up.....

I feel very sorry for all the staff in Shannon who are so overworked but I hope that nobody takes up the offer of a 3 year contract......and if you do, make sure you get a bloody good solicitor to check and double check everything......on that note i'm off to see mine right now :-)

Vacancies...huh!!!...what vacancies.
 

Quote;
"best of luck if you can negotiate a good package for yourself. but beware of verbal offers, and also vague promises. the iaa have a habit of writing words like"

" a bonus may be paid " or

"such and such may be done/paid at the discretion of the company"

Well put "irishatco". However, as a recently signed up forum member with a particular interest in this topic, I have some questions for you.

If there is a real need for direct entry ATCOs, why is the union making it so hard to agree a contract for them?:confused: Surely it's members will benefit from the extra staff....sooner is better than later. no?

I was told that there were several vacancies in EIDW, for all sectors, is this true?

Why would any currently employed ATCO, apply for a 2-3 year contract, joining at the lowest point of the pay scale? (Not very tempting!):{

Since submittimg my CV last October, all I have is an ack. email!!!:ugh: I am slowly losing interest...

Whaddya think???

Regards,

Sylvester
"Own nav is best"

well rocky01.....my thoughts exactly.....I wish somebody would get their skates on whether it be the union or management...both are making it very difficult for staff...WE NEED CONTROLLERS....GET A BLOODY MOVE ON....Most providers have similar experiences getting controllers and negotiating contracts, with one major difference...they get on with it....the Irish just.....seem.....to.....lounge....about and.....sure....everything will....sort ......itself out.....in.........due time!!!! Now where was I??????

The IAA MUST know they have to be competeitive to get controllers in the door....the weather in this place is already crap, offer a good deal similar to other providers and at least your in with some sort of a chance....:ok:

Depends on the conditions under which you join...there is a real fear that direct entry contract staff could be used to undermine industrial action taken by union members for example...

Can't see why the IAA needs contract staff AND an intake of students, why not offer permanant direct entry positions to suitably qualified staff and save a fortune on training cadets?

There are staff shortages in Dublin, though why you would want to work a cycle of 6/3, 6/3, 7/2 I'll never know (that is the proposed roster from management)

Add that to the derisory Labour Court pay ruling (5% plus a third party ruling on the value of ongoing change) and the inevitable assault on the pension (it will be coming) and its a great place to work so it is...

:*
As always bad planning
Management can take a run and jump for them seleves:mad::mad::mad:
:ugh::ugh::ugh::bored::(:yuk:

I think what irishatco forgot to mention is that the union and staff have said that they were understaffed for quite some time but management disagreed. Also the staff were asked to take on extra airspace, new roosters etc in return for payments and other deals which apparently the IAA have conveniently forgotten about. The IAA and the union seem to be permanently in the labour court.
Unfortunately the IAA have the attitiude that controllers are just a drain on their finances. Now it has come to the stage where peole are starting to leave(I being one of them), there are also a few female controllers who are pregnant and will be on maternity leave for the busy summer period and traffic is also way up. Anyone with a bit of common sense would have seen it coming.....but there lies the problem with the IAA. I also don't think they care just how fed up staff are with the way they are treated. Having talked to a few old colleagues lately I'm surprised just how many are thinking of jumping ship.

A mass exodus is the kick in the ar*e that they need.

I get the sense that the union doesn't want contractors to come in on inflated contracts- is that correct? (because if it isn't, then disregard all that follows).

I can understand a union wanting to protect conditions of employment (hour limits etc). However, wouldn't it be a good tactic to prompt the IAA to offer way more money than the current staff are on (if they are serious about getting the bodies they need) to contractors. Then sit beside these contractors (who are on way more money) for twelve months. Then sit down with the bosses and open negotiations for retaining your own staff with "well, sir, these contractors, thats all fine and dandy, but if you want to retain us permanent staff, lets talk about parity....."

It always amuses me when people think the way forward is to stop other people getting something, when it might be better to assist other people to get something, and then ask for the same in return. Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

"It always amuses me when people think the way forward is to stop other people getting something, when it might be better to assist other people to get something, and then ask for the same in return. Or am I barking up the wrong tree?"...


Nope...your dead right there ferris....but we've been burned doing this before....We the controllers assisted the IAA in a number of things like NOTA (airspace we got from Her Majesty), Licencing, Approaches moving to Dublin, including staff moving...the list can go on. The IAA promised us a pay hike in return...ahemmmmmm...donde esta? Did it fall off the radar???? So we are a little apprehensive about doin anything like this again....promises, promises, promises...ehhh

There's a big difference between doing something to help out management in the expectation that they will fix you up later, and doing something to help yourselves.

Well, ...well....
 

Some really interesting insights there my friends.
As an outsider trying to get in, those last few posts are very telling.:(
Seems to me that politics rules, and logic takes a back seat.

I for one, would loath being taken on, on a higher salary (albeit temporary contract etc...) than those already there. I imagine the atmosphere would stink pretty soon among permanent staff. Its only human (Irish)!!! to begrudge others better conditions.

As for the shifts, well they do appear onorous, but the unions no doubt had a hand in their development at some stage, so no point in bitchin' about them here. Anyway, is there no leeway among the teams, to ease the pressure?

Any other thoughts would be welcome. For now, the advice seems to be keep away, but are there any agendas being played out on this thread folks?

Regards

Sylvester
"Own nav is best"

Never a truer word spoken!! :ok:

Have that T-shirt.:mad:

Ferris and Track Coastal are right...What I was trying to get across is that we would simply be looking out for new entry controllers both cadets and direct...We don't want to see newcomers end up with a bum deal only to come in and bring morale down even further. Contracts, both existing and new HAVE to be protected....the IAA already want to look at pensions....Well I'm sorry, they ain't touchin mine!!

I have no doubt that any management would see contractors as a method of making productivity gains, and the union is very correct in ensuring that any new contract doesn't undermine conditions.
Use the same tactics. Use new contracts as a way of improving remuneration (permanent remuneration). Especially if the contracting process turns into a farce (which it will if they dont offer the right money). Just think about whether denying contractors more money works for you, or against you.....

* I am not a potential candidate at the current offer, and nor is anyone else that I am in contact with.

Gu'luck.

Not entirely.

The union were happy to negotiate on the basis that direct entry controllers would join the existing pay scale at a suitable point (and I've yet to hear anyone suggest that's at point 1) and asked the IAA why they couldn't offer permanent positions to the incoming staff.

The company cannot make its mind up whether single person sectors will happen in the coming years, and so won't make any concrete decisions. What the union do not want to see happen is 3 year contracts being offered, then renewed for another 3 years...and so on, and so on...

Wouldn't work that way I'm afraid, ultimately every industrial dispute works it way through the state's industrial relations mechanism, the Labour Court has already let us down on recent pay negotiations, no chance staff will trust them to deliver as you suggest.

Fair enough, you walk in with your eyes closed...the union have no part to play in that proposed roster, and have spent the last 5 years fending off management roster proposals that have tried to take away the existing 5/3 cycle in Dublin.

Ok then...
 

badback

Thanks for that. I for one do not wish to have an uncertain future, no more than anyone else I suspect. So, long term permanent will always beat "3 year contract" any day.

As for the roster, from previous experience, management will always chip away at perceived staff benefits, it's their "raison d'etre" so to speak. So, I support any union action to protect pay and conditions.

I shall, of course, watch the small print in any contract offered. Question is, will there be any offers soon, to those of us interested?

My thanks for the numerous contributers to this thread.

Regards,

Sylvester
"Own nav is best"

Any news???
 

Hi folks,

Has anyone heard anything from IAA sources about these contract jobs?
It's been very quiet on the grapevine....!!:rolleyes:

Sylvester
"own nav is best"

In response to Rocky - I received the response below when I emailed the "careers" link on the IAA site. hope this helps..


Thank you for your expression of interest in a position as an Air Traffic Controller with the Irish Aviation Authority.

The Authority is currently proceeding with the recruitment of a number of 3-year fixed-term contract posts for rated Air Traffic Controllers. These posts will be full-time operational posts on shift rotation.We will not offer permanent employment on completion of the contract.

If you wish to be considered for such a contract please confirm your interest by return attaching an updated CV giving a brief outline of your rating and controller career history. Please also indicate your expectation in relation to remuneration for this position.

Thanks rack n stack,

That's exactly the email and letter I received myself back in early December,
since then....nothing.

Depends on your interpretation of "soon" in IAA parlance I suppose....

Ah well...back to the grindstone......:{

Sylvester
"own nav is best"

Rocky,

Just out of curiosity, are you military ATC or ATC for a well known private airfield within skipping distance of Dublin?

Can't really say...
 

Yaweh,

Is there any way I can answer that without giving the game away?

Don't think so!:uhoh:

Ok then, I used to work at ...:mad:..., and I now work at...:mad:...

Clever eh???:p...:D...:=

bumping the topic, 10 years is a long enough moratorium! :D

So - hi guys, anyone here with any information about recent IAA notice about Direct Entry for Dublin Terminal?

Also, how have things changed for ATCOs in IAA in tha last 10 years, a lot of stuff has happened since, LoL :D

P.S.: first post!