Yes, that's the point.

Even after BAA show your card staff discount? They knock off 10% here.:ok:
BDiONU,
LV's are only a form of payment like cash,cards,etc.We pay tax on them.As for misuse then it's up to the retailer.I think the cost to the retailer to process them is about the same as credit cards.Some don't mind what they are used for.However I wouldn't be surprised if Nats try and scrap them.''Chipping'' away at terms and conditions all the time.:suspect:

10% off £6 is still £5.40! :}

But they'd need to offer something in return, the unions won't allow them to be 'scrapped'.

BD

BD, It's called a lump sum mate:E

Lump Sum.A tried and tested procedure.What's next on the hit list?
Gonzo,
Yes I could work out 10% without a calculator.It's still discount,not a lot,and you get LVs as well.Look at the outside world where NHS staff have to pay for a car park to get to work.Life's tough at the top of the Band 5 scale, I know.I'm sure you'll struggle on somehow.:hmm:

Eh? How did we get on to car parking?:ugh:

I was responding to a remark where it was claimed that the 'subsidised' canteens at larger units were not thought to be 'subsidised'. I was pointing out that in fact they are, compared to the price of similar food available at the other units (not that at places such as Heathrow or Gatwick or other airside towers you'd ever have time to do such in a 30 minute break).

Therefore, I was pointing out that those who do have a canteen on unit are not at a disadvantage.

I was not complaining, I was merely making an observation.

Not everything has to be about banding. :ugh:

BDiONU

naughty, naughty stop fibbing Mr B!! The above are subsidised in the Forces, quite heavily up until the recent past, the thing about the tax breaks is correct however and certainly needs looked at.

Gonzo -

If you look through all the threads that Throw A Dyce has contributed to, everything boils down to banding;)

I think you're going to have to come up with some specific examples before you start accusations of lying. I can assure you that in HM Forces food, drink and accomodation is NOT subsidised. Any other serving or ex-serving readers care to join in the debate?

BD

BDiONU

Shall we get to specifics, I was not accucisng you of lying, merely misleading.

If you owned your own home in the forces, the cost was all down to you the individual.

If you lived in forces accomodation, you paid, but at nowhere near the cost of a similar sized house would be to rent - FACT. If you lived in the junior/senior rates or Officers mess, you paid depending on the grade (call it comfort factor) of the accomodation (used to be 1-4). The lowest grade used to be circa £90 a month in the late 90s.

Heating and electricity was all included in the accomodation in the messes, but not if you lived in a house.

When you lived in the mess, you also got your food for approximately £3.50 a day for all meals (again late 90s prices).. I believe PAYD is now in force in some, or all of the establishments. However, if you were a live-er out you could get lunch on a pay to dine basis (i.e. pay for individual meals) and it was cheaper than you could get it outside - i.e. it was subsidised.

Council tax, again if you were lived in accomodation on the base, was very cheap... I remember paying about 16p per day - late 90s prices.

Now, how in any way can you state these things were not subsidised?

IF you as an individual never lived in a mess on the base, or never lived in a service house, then you probably never had a subsidy (as long as you never dined in on the odd occasion), but I know of no serviceman who has never lived on the base at some pioint in their career.

Now, I may still be mistaken - I may be the only serviceman who has ever paid these prices, whilst my colleagues all paid full whack..... maybe I should keep quiet before someone tries to claim it all bacK!

as you asked

Fibbing was the term you used, misleading could be used or if you're in the government being economical with the truth. It boils down to the same thing and I'm not particularly pleased to be accused of lying.
You need to read the Armed Forces Pay Review Body reports on the comparable costs of rented accomodation to Forces accomodation, you'd be surprised at how wrong your perceptions are.
Again I'd refer you to the AFPRB reports on accomodation. They were very much less than impressed with the lowest grades, hence the 'quality' was reflected in the price the serviceman paid. In addition there are many other factors which the AFPRB point out, for example servicemen have no 'right to buy' Service Family Accomodation (Married Quarters in your day).
Again you really need to read the AFPRB reports to dispell your misconceptions on these alleged subsidies. As an example some of the food purchased came from the EU stockpiles (like the EU butter mountain) at a rate which did not include the profits which supermarkets have to include to be able to run. Please try to contain yourself to areas which are like for like.
I can once again refer you to the AFPRB reports, an independent body. Bear in mind that On Base accomodation is on private land, owned by HMG, not maintained by the council.
Because if you think that living in on base accomodation is in any way comparable to living in the civil world you lived in a very different service world to mine. The AFPRB tackles all of the points you raise and make it very clear as to why there is a difference, not a subsidy, a difference. Indeed in all the instances you raise the AFPRB were at great pains to point out to HMG just where servicemen were being disadvantaged in comparison to their civil counterparts.
I too would be interested in the viewpoint of some other serving or ex-serving members of HM forces.

BD

You don't like "fibbing"

I take offence at

Let's move the thread back on track.

So you can use LV's to buy Tequila, big deal! I heard of someone who used theirs to buy a Plasma telly. Smart thinking.

Anyhoo, to be really correct and not misuse them, one would have to go to Tesco twice a week with one trip solely for 'work related' foodstuffs (oh bugger, I've run out of butter, I'll just nip down to Tesco for a half pound rather than use what's in the fridge:rolleyes:). B***ocks to that, once a week at our local Tesco is enough to have me reaching for the sharp knives.:ugh:

Oh, and I suppose I must have volunteered to be sent 715 miles frommy family, friends, life etc. The costs of having single accomodation might well be cheap but I have existed in a room with 1 door, one window, one power point, no tv point, no phone point, leaky roof, cockroaches, rats, no furniture other than a broken bed, and a 35 miles per day commute each way to work, having to be at work at 05.30.

I have also stayed in a barrack block at the exact point parallel to lift off for many Tornado Aircraft. Loud??? try sleeping off night shift when all you can hear is the sound of overtime.

But I volunteered..................?

The point is it might be cheap, it is because it is cr4p substandard hell living there.

Ever slept six men in a four man room?

Ever slept 32 in a 16?

Cheap, no privacy, lots of stress. The only good bits were giving the lads marks out of ten for the goping trolls they had bought back from the bop :E

I get LVs... I hate the things. There was a proposal put the the Unions AGM to replace the vouchers with a salary allowance... It was knocked back, I believe, due to being a reduction in benefits.. Which it only is if you count the miniscule tax saving.

One of the women here took them to Tesco to buy her shopping and was asked if they were "vouchers for single parents?"

Personally, the sooner NATS get rid of the silly paper food stamps and give me cash instead the better.

Cornish-stormrider

One more reply from me as it is thread creep - as the majority of times living on the base is a choice (not always but a majority), you take the rough with the smooth. I lived in substandard officers messes in 2 establishments, and I paid the prices that I refer to in one of them (can't recollect the other). Stayed in many other messes that were of better standard and paid a bit more, but not earth shattering amounts.

They are in my book, subsidised. I won't even mention the access to a gym/swimming pool/sports hall for no cost etc etc (on most bases). Yes, it was one room, but the overall cost was less than what you would pay to rent a room outside, and the facilities were (usually) better... Even if the room was pants, the communal areas and free sports facilities etc made up in some way.

As for living 700 odd miles from your family, several questions arise.

1. Why did you not move them?
2. What did you expect when you joined a fighting force - a career based at one base for the entirety?

So yes, you did volunteer, by signing the dotted line. Conscription has long gone in this country

BDiONU

So the MOD bought surplus food from the EU at a cut price? And your point is?

It was fit for human consumption, they did what any business e.g. Aramark would do if they had access to this facility. As you bring specifics into it, I could talk about the state of the sausages (etc) that appear at breakfast time -I eat them (my choice) but they are nothing more than cheap bulk buy. No different to the MOD getting food on the cheap.

I believe we had subsidies - it was part of the package you got as a serviceman... I chose to stay in some of the accomodation as it suited me - cheap and cheerful, with a great social aspect. It was pants, but it was my choice. I stand by my comments having stayed in two of the worst officers messes (room wise, not neccesarily communal area wise) around... I have rented rooms in bournemouth that were smaller/less privacy/less facilities that cost a hell of a lot more.

I know I was susidised. Go to any serving member of the forces who has been in a few years and they moan (quite rightly) about the erosion of their perks - which include cheaper accomodation and food etc etc. Search hard enough and you will find a long thread bemoaning the introduction of PAYD as it meant paying more for food as you paid for individiual meals and course, almost as we do in a canteen. Why moan about PAYD if it doesn't mean you are losing out?

The AFPRB is all very well, but like any body that is full of bean counters, it uses figures to suit itself. It can claim never to have given subsidies as a means to making people pay more in the future. Or it can claim that offsetting losses is actually not subsidising.

Maybe you would like to look through your old pay statements if you have them and tell us what you paid and where you were based at the time, whilst listing the facilities available to you?

I normally agree with the majority of what you say BDiONU - but I'm afraid that I consider (in fact I know) that I received subsidies (however you like to dress them up)... I am happy to let Joe Public decide what he classes as subsidised living costs.

I take it then that we are relatively pleased with another 4.1% pensionable pay increase-I know I certainly am. Remember this is there till the day you retire and all other increases are based on this. Has anyone done a calculation to see just what this makes the 3 year deal worth in total?

Well done to the union guys for another significant increase achieved in a difficult climate.:D

Without wishing to get in a real pi55ing contest abouts terms of employment etc but the big difference as far as I can tell between military cook house food prices and civilian canteen food prices is that the military are not trying to make a profit. The £x the head military chef got each day all went into the food and may reflect the true cost of the food therefore the £x plus y that you pay in the civilian canteen is all profit (granted there would also be an element of staff costs that the military may reflect in another bidget on the basis of "warfighter first, slop jockey second"). Bottom line when you join any company what "perks" you receive on day 1 is your personal baseline. If you don't like subsequent changes then leave - believe me the erosion in military "T&Cs" is one of the big factors that is being quoted by those leaving, whether it be the amount you pay for food, the standard of the military housing, or the fact that you just can't get decent stabling for your Polo ponies:E

Yes there are SMALL subsidies / VAT exemptions (I think) in certain defined areas. Yes, it is cheaper to live in the mess/live in a quarter than in the outside world. However, please set that aside:

- Lack of access to GPs/Dentists for your family because you keep moving around the country and the NHS couldn't give a t0ss.
- C&*p standard of accommodation - no matter how you dress it up.
- Unable to get people (let alone decent people) to come and mend stuff in your house/room because there's no money in the system.
- C&*p food in many messes because they've let Aramark run it (who are trying to make a profit).
- Some people cannot afford to live in their own house due to posting location, even if they wanted to (read anywhere in the south-east)!!
- Having to pay for the food and salubrious accommodation offered when we're fighting Uncle Tony's wars in far flung lands (yes that's right kids - paying for the privilege of tents/ISO containers and field kitchen grub).
- The Service provides Phys Ed facilities because it wants it's personnel to be fit. It's not a perk - it's part of the job!

I'd go on, but it's just making me question whether I can really stomach hangin around for the pension. :ugh::ugh:

BDiOnU-The man is a geniu - that's all the pen-pushers and managers in CTC ph-ukd then :)

Yippee, big rise for the rest of us ?