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Swanwick Skygods
I thought that I have never underestimated the arrogance, greed, and inflated self-importance of some of the younger atcos at Swanwick, however recent events have prompted me to write this post. For those who know me I am not known for my shy and retiring nature, but even I have sat in incredulous disbelief at some of the crass and pompous statements made about colleagues who happen to be members of the atsa grade within their hearing and without reference to the members of staff concerned as though these colleagues are invisible. There are many issues affecting colleagues who are members of the atsa grade of which ifacts is just one of them and to hear atco colleagues discussing these sensitive issues which involves colleagues livelihoods, mortgages, childrens education, partners, etc with such complete actual or perceived indifference is beyond the pale. These younger atcos are truly "thatchers children" with all the nasty and greedy connotations that that implies. Unfortunately some of these atcos sense of self-importance is not matched by their technical or aeronautical knowledge and/or experience and my only "comfort" is that within a few years as atc technology "improves" the atcos concerned will be following the same path as atsas, flight engineers, navigators, radio operators, and hansom cab drivers. If this rant seems rather nasty and vindictive then I make no apology for that, and for those who know me come and tell me to my face as I am the one who wears the very stylish Hawaiian shirts!
Tony Fallows Swanwick |
Wise words Mr Fallows
I really couldn't believe my ears at Hurn when my fellow studes would make nasty-minded comments about atsas (I think 'strip-monkeys' was one of the more 'pleasant' comments). The total lack of respect for professional colleagues disgusted me - certainly no need for an apology from you. Your comments have just proven that nothing's changed. |
Just hope I will never become one of those, or meet any of those people! :{
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Tony,
I fully agree with your statements - we unfortunately have the same kind of people here in Maastricht. However, maybe an internal mail would be of more use rather than a public website. The type of people that you are trying to reach probably don't have the interest or "professionalism" to keep up to date with aviation related topics and therefore will not visit sites like these. They just take the money and run! I hope you have some success and that your message does get through:ok: |
Millerman,
I did think about putting it on the nats website, but I think that this attitude/philosophy is actually common throughout most of the atc world. I referred in my original post to younger colleagues but it is also prevalent in some of the older personnel although that is for cultural/historical reasons. It also reminds me of the airline flight deck envirioment in the 1970s and 1980s where certain pilots would treat their colleagues in a quite outrageous manner to hide their own personal or professional inadequacies to the detriment of flight safety. Speaking personally it is a matter of supreme indifference as I have far more important things to do than atc matters and I am always comforted by the fact that when I am retired these people and their egos will be working at 0300 to provide me with my pension. Tony Fallows Swanwick |
Well it looks like TRM has been a success down there then!!. We were having a discussion similar to this in work yesterday.It is not a problem here...but I recall when I first pitched up at Redbrae(younger ATCO's..ask your granddads) there was a shocking us and them attitude,which I put down to the ATCO's being mostly ex military . I am sorry to hear that attitudes appear to have remained constant.:rolleyes:
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I fully agree. ATSAs are what keep our place running smoothly despite, or indeed because of, EFPS. Any flight planning or stand management query, anything non-standard in fact, the first person we turn to is the ATSA. They invariably know how to sort the problem out.
Most of them have been there a long time and have seen all there is to see in ATC, where as many of our controllers, albeit competent and keen, are new, young and a little green behind the ears (and I include myself in that). Long live the ATSA. |
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt BD |
off da subject
...sorry off da subject.....to the Swanwicks.....is Gavin T still there?
ta, N2n:ok: |
Sorry to hear that attitude still exists south of the border....when I started 30 years ago there was a definate them and us attitude, all the ATSA's young and just out of school, all the ATCO's mainly ex RAF and on their last legs,gradually as time has passed by things have changed....ATCO's now full of the flush of youth and ATSA's going grey and old!! Here north of the border I feel we all work together as a team....yes there will always be the exception, I guess on both sides but to be honest we all work in perfect harmony...I hope.
Mind you at time's I feel management, (at the very top that is) , also helps to keep that "them and us attitude".....for instance why as an ATCO should you benefit from free health care whilst the poor ATSA's have no such help...that to me is class distinction and I ask my management why??? If you want us to work as a team please treat us as equal team members!! |
Tony, not sure I understand,
Is it talking about IFACTS that is insensitive to the ATSAs? If so are ther any other developments in ATC that they should not discuss? |
Bdionu,
I do not feel inferior, in fact I am a very superior person. Fallows |
Mind you at time's I feel management, (at the very top that is) , also helps to keep that "them and us attitude".....for instance why as an ATCO should you benefit from free health care whilst the poor ATSA's have no such help...that to me is class distinction and I ask my management why??? If you want us to work as a team please treat us as equal team members!! Why are SATCOs given a company car allowance, and ATCOs and ATSAs not? Why are ATCO1s given BUPA cover for themselves and their family, while ATCO 2 and 3s will have it only for themselves? Why are ATCOs paid more than ATSAs? What was the discussion, DC10? I'm worried now that I've been upsetting all my ATSA colleagues when I talk about EFPS and our new tower with other ATCOs, within their earshot. :eek: |
OK,
I'll bite... I've met Tony, and I can sympathise with his "comments/concerns", but and there is a big BUT, I do NOT think that this "attitude" is prevelent in/to NATS as a whole......but.....I "could" be wrong. At Manch, we have a "True" policy of "Open Reporting"... BUT I have heard that this is NOT common throughout the Company... If not, WHY NOT? watp,iktch |
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Reference has been made to ifacts and efps and other technlogical "improvements". The actual event is not really relevant. My point is that colleagues who are members of the atsa grade may or may not lose their livelihoods and sitting around the coffee table and hearing atco colleagues say and I quote "that one of the benefits of ifacts is that it will get rid of the atsas" and that "atcos when they have had enough of radar should do the FIS so that they can have a rest" irrespective of the fact that other colleagues livelihoods depend on it is just plain rude. Being "an atsa" is not a religious calling, article of faith, political tract, or way of life it is just an administrative title to specify a group of colleagues doing particular jobs, and it should not be used as an excuse for condescending remarks or insults, particularly from people who are somewhat lacking in personal, educational, and life skills. Fallows xx |
Hi Tony. Sorry to hear how you feel. For what it's worth, I'm one of the younger ATCOs (depending on how you classify that), and I've never personally heard anyone say anything negative about the ATSA role.
I don't feel that the attitude you talk about is as widely spread as this thread would suggest, but I know how easily generalisations can be made. Just try not to tar all us skygods with the same brush. Most assistants are top people, and if the time ever came where they weren't there, I for one would miss them. |
Hola Gringos !
This typifies the Corporate Mentality they are probably trying to brainwash into the employees at your new ATC Centre. It is all too common these days. The British are well practiced at Divide & Rule and this is what they are doing here. I have been shown around a British ATC unit and the dress style of these so-called young ATCO's resembles throwing out time at All Bar One, which is a trendy drinking place for London air-heads, who think they have style when in fact are about ten years out of date, just like your young ATCOs. Seņor Fallows, you sound like an average chap but I think your point about Thatcher's children is also out of date, like your ATCOs. They are Blair's Children who probably got their qualifications out of a Corn Flake packet. With regard to the company you work for, I would imagine that in recent years you have suffered an excess of Corporate Bullsh1t in genuine Yankee style. I am also certain that the real aviation person is now in the minority. |
and the dress style of these so-called young ATCO's resembles throwing out time at All Bar One Been here many times before & everybody knows that what an ATCO wears to work has absolutly no bearing on his ability to control planes. They are Blair's Children who probably got their qualifications out of a Corn Flake packet. Don`t talk sh1t. We firstly got the qualifications to allow us to be enrolled at The ATC College, then after the best part of 3-4 years study & training at both the college & the unit, have got the qualifications to control traffic for real on our own and in some cases instruct trainees as an OJTI. I agree that some trainees think they are "it" when they appear out of the college, but as Vasa said, Don`t tar us all with the same brush. From a young ATCO.:ok: |
Blub Blub
Very interesting post. Just remember the younger ATCO's do have emotions. I am sure I heard in the last Concorde flight from LHR the young ATCO going something like:
"Concorde (blub blub) Line up runway (boo hoo tears) 27 (very tired and emotional moment) Left ...." He was young and obviously either was doing it for media effect or showed feelings. Yes a young ATCO with feelings ;-) :{ |
Hermano now reel him in gently:rolleyes:
http://thefriendsociety.com/forum/im...et/fishing.gif |
Somebody must have really upset you Tony!
Some of the nicest people I've ever met have been ATCOs. However this isn't the first time I've heard unfavourable things about some of the less mature controllers at Swanwick! Agree with everything that Hermano said apart from the bit about 'dress style' since that's not really part of what this thread is about. Talking to a colleague today (a TC ATCO) there seems to be a similiar 'attitude problem' on certain watches in TC. As somebody who is due to be posted to Swanwick sometime this year this thread does nothing to make me feel any better. I've yet to speak to anybody who has a good word to say about the place! All the best from one of your old colleagues (bet you can't guess who) see you later in the year. |
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Thank you for your both pro and anti comments. I would agree that most of our colleagues are fine people who I am proud to call colleagues and friends. I just want to make it clear that I personally have no axe to grind. I am far too ugly, fat, and sartorially expressive to be bothered about such immature ravings and posturings, in fact I tend to laugh at such nonsense and get on with far more important issues like Flying, Fishing and supporting the World Famous Northwich Victoria F.C. however I do know of younger and more sensitive colleagues who are concerned about their future and who do take offence to some of the things that are said and are too intimidated to defend either themselves or their colleagues and it is on their behalf that I posted my original observations. Fallows xxx EGLL19791986 I presume that I owe you money? |
One of the nicest guys I've ever met in NATS was a young ATCO from Swanwick. However, I've also had the pleasure of dealing with the arrogant, impatient, demanding attitude that does exist within the ranks down there. There is elitism with ATCOs generally in reference to other grades. There also appears to be an extra level of elitism from those at Swanwick.
I'm glad I'm well removed from it. I also know it doesnt apply to all... A little bit of humility and consideration goes a long way. |
I like atsa's, i want atsa's to stay. I have no desire to do route amendments, pass estimates and all the other things that atsa's do. When the system falls down and blows up on the first day of ifacts that will be because i tried to do something i have no understanding of.
A young atco (sort of) |
Interesting thread.
I'm going to have to tread carefully, as apparently, my management takes a rather dim view of staff expressing views on Pprune, so apologies in advance for the relative obscurity. Anyway, during my time as a trainee NATS ATCO many years ago, I and my course were constantly hyped up as being the best of the best, and all that claptrap, which, if it's still being fed to trainees, might explain more than a little of the "We're Sky Gods; ATSAs are lesser beings" attitude in some of the successful trainees when they emerge into daylight. When I crashed and burned from my course, I was given an ATSA post at a certain major London airport, and when I managed to break out of the confusion my change of status incurred (bear in mind - "You're the best of the best; the top 5% of humanity, and we'll do anything for you" turned to complete indifference and total lack of support from anywhere apart from the operational staff working with me, so very difficult to come to terms with initially), what I found was that yes, the newly-qualified ATCOs sometimes took a little time to adjust down to reality, but the large majority of them did so quite successfully, so I hope things haven't changed as much as is implied in this thread. What I also found was that there were a very few of the older controllers whose attitude towards ATSAs was nothing short of disgraceful - they treated us pretty much as objects of derision and contempt that they had no option but to put up with. My attitude developed into 'such is life', but what became clear was that although I gave a consistently good service to all, I naturally and willingly did more for those large majority of ATCOs who had a good and mutually-respectful rapport with me as an ATSA, and I know that was very apparent and very much appreciated by the very large majority of ATCOs. As for being called a strip-monkey, I found that an original title that was both descriptive and amusing, but then perhaps I've got a warped sense of humour. Since leaving that unit, I went to work in a certain European capital city, and the attitude there was that one particular operational section was staffed by "ATCOs", with "ATSAs" doing the lesser tasks, while the other sections were staffed by "ATSAs" only, with a widely-held opinion (even among those 'managers' not of an ATC background) that "ATSAs" were a lesser species. The ridiculous thing about this is that the "ATSA"-staffed sections actually had a lot of ex-controllers, both civil and military, along with ex-assistants, airline ops managers, dispatchers, and even an ex-airport manager, so although the ATCO/ATSA view is hardly reasonable, it is there, and it didn't look like it'd be going away for the foreseeable future. Such is life, bearing in mind that not all ATSAs are perfect beings, and the same applies to ATCOs, but a lot of both species are very good at their job and are normal, respectful human beings. Anyway, this ex-ATSA likes hearing the concern and respect voiced in this thread for the humble ATSA - it's much appreciated: thank you. FD |
To count the number of times an ATSA has helped me out of a tight spot, I'd have to take my shoes, socks, and pants off, and TBH I'd probably still have to find some things to count on. Sad to hear that some people still think their own s**t doesn't smell.
Another young (ish) but perhaps crucially non swanwick ATCO. |
FD
As I have said "repeatedly" [and to Tony, Personally] I DO think that there is a North/South divide I am an ATSA11 in the Tower at Manchester. So.... I contribute to the NATS "Safety Culture".....[I fill in 4114s' :ok: ], I am a "valued Member of the Watch" [My "opinions" are listened to] An "off unit" Watch Briefiing [Away day, with food and drinks supplied], was postponed because the "ATSAs" [as well as a couple of ATCOs] were unavailable Different Strokes..........? watp,iktch |
Tony,
please do not take this the wrong way but what have you done to try and rule this behaviour out, using TRM principles? I'm asking this because I am very curious how TRM does and/or could work in these cases. I always thought and hoped that it would make a difference but only when people are willing to take a risk and do something. |
Floydie,
You make a very good point and I am not in slightest bit offended. I have on occasion had a "quiet word" with one or two people and have tried to offer advice both technical and/or professional whether it was wanted or not. I have had the benefit of the NATS TRM courses, but I have also attended a number of airlines CRM courses as well, so I am quite familar with the general principles involved as well as the acceptable principles of good manners and behaviour. I would reiterate the fact that I originally posted my comments, not because I felt personally affronted but for the benefit of my younger colleagues irrespective of their particular job or administrative title. Fallows |
I would reiterate the fact that I originally posted my comments, not because I felt personally affronted but for the benefit of my younger colleagues irrespective of their particular job or administrative title. Even better I would think. If one is not personally affronted chances are one is all the more objective and so the ones 'on the sideline' may have a greater responsibility than others. |
Floydie,
I agree wholeheartly with that. I would also add that it is not just the personal responsibility of the individuals concerned except that some are just plain rude. It is an historical and cultural perspective within the whole ATC world and not just NATS. I still believe that my earlier comparision of the flight deck enviroment before the 1980s is very valid and we know what happened there dont we! Fallows |
I still believe that my earlier comparision of the flight deck enviroment before the 1980s is very valid and we know what happened there dont we! |
It's not difficult to spot those who won't make it because of their attitude. |
The young 'gods' need to know better. I would take a very dim view :E of some spotty yoof, fresh from Hurn running down fellow ATC professionals. After all, what the hell do they know, straight out of skool and just valid.
Things are surely better than in the late 70's/early 80's when controllers and assistants (bad term 'assistant' for someone who used to 'almost' separate the traffic procedurally and sort out all the exit levels, no OLDI then 'boys' - phone in each ear!) used to sit at separate tables in the canteen and there was a tangible 'officers and other ranks' mentality. Do we remember a certain ATCO threatening to take UKATTS to court for allowing assistants access? I @PO()* do - and he was a former ATCA :( Its refreshing to see so many controllers supporting ATSA's here though. |
Anybody else remember John Reynolds at LATCC. He didn't just hate ATCAs; he hated everybody - and the feelings were reciprocated.
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QWERTY9,
I have to disagree with your contention that there is a divide between atco and atsa and your acceptance that there always will be, this is an artificial divide fed by egos and maintained by the managements of atc providers for their own ends and I would certainly not accept that these "barriers" make rudeness and discourtesy just "one of those things" that employees have to accept. Racism and sexism were at one time an "accepted" part of life, one would like to think that we have moved on a little since then. Fallows |
'It's not difficult to spot those who won't make it because of their attitude.'
Reminds me of the ginger fool on my course that walked out of the sim at Hurn declaring "I was really pushing tin there" - what a tool! |
Lon More wrote : "Anybody else remember John Reynolds at LATCC. He didn't just hate ATCAs; he hated everybody - and the feelings were reciprocated."
You must understand the psychology of an individual like this; he hates himself and projects this onto other people. Perhaps in your organisation you have noticed people with various attitudes being sent on Management Courses; they learn how to manage people and then afterwards promptly forget everything they have learned. Then they return to their own prejudices and biases as if they have never been on the course. You will often see them accuse others of the very thing from which they themselves suffer. A contact in your organistion has told me that assistants are only employed for someone the ATCO's can look down on. I think much of this has more to do with the cultural and class structure of the British Isles rather than ATC ? Would the same attitudes occur in somewhere like Australia for instance ? |
@Hermano Lobo,
Interesting points you contribute. As far as management courses and applying what's been learned is concerned. That's mainly due to the fact that these courses give peole a lot of information but they fail to demonstrate exactly how to apply this info. Also, we can't teach anybody anything. People can learn but only if they choose to. This contact in the English organisation must have been a witty person or a person with a very screwed up mind. I won't take it seriously. And finally for your comment on this possibly being exclusive for the British Isles. I've been around a bit and I can tell you that it's universal but not exclusively for ATC. But, and that is a big BUT, let's not think that this is the standard. It's always a few rotten apples in the basket that demonstrate this behaviour (which is driven by their attitudes). What always strikes me is that these rotten apples are not simply kicked out. Every organisation can do without them yet they seem to manage to claim their place:ugh: |
Hermano Lobo, what exactly is a "real aviation person" ?
And as for dress style, I must be missing the portion of my licence that dictates what style to adopt. Imagine choosing my own style, thats just crazy, how do I do my job..? |
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