Dirty Pierre you said, " If you thought Manch. and Scotland were in separate countries, moving from Perth to Melbourne might be something similar". Manchester and Scotland are in separate countries! Perth and Melbourne aren't!

I may think that this move for Manch ATCOs is wrong (spouses jobs, childrens education etc may not survive the move), I have
a nagging thought regarding how much support ATCOs from Prestwick would be getting were the boot on the other foot.

As a Scotsman can I ask that you bring some decent aspiring young footballers please? Anyone in the vein of Stuart McCall, Andy Goram or McRooney would help the cause immensely:ok:

Vampy,

If you can come up with a suitable and viable business case for having three ATC centres in the UK then I'm sure NATS management would love to hear from you.

Unfortunately I suspect the simple fact is that there isn't one. With projections in the future of reducing the number of centres in Europe from 30 down to 10 who knows what the future holds for the two centres that are left.

WF.

p.s. I assume top 30 means one of the top 30 wettest places in the world, it's certainly not passengers or movements ;)

Warped,

First of all, Smart Ar$e! ;) and once again i stand corrected. However, everyone seems to be missing my main point. I'm certain that business wise, the move makes perfect sense. My beef with the whole thing is the way its been handled. Management being wholly unsympathetic and heavy handed with the whole thing etc etc. Will be interesting to see what happens when the S7 sims need to be staffed by Manchester ATCOs in preparation for that sector moving north.............

Once again Merry Christmas all and hopefully a Happy 2005! :ok: :O

Probably the same as usual.

The ATCOs will whinge.
Management will offer inducements = cash
The ATCOs will roll over so management can tickle their tummies.

Just like the last few pay rounds, much dissent and absolutely no action taken.

Our powder is still dry, Ha f****** Ha !

Look forward to seeing you all in a few years time

We can have two centres. One in England with AC TC and MACC, TC and MACC as a signgle low/mid airspace organisation, have we looked at the airspace between TC & MACC lately?

The other in Scotland - abroad!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Just one thing to say for now....

Ayr-Rage youre nowt but a loser son!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Fidgell
I can't see how he is a loser but I can see how he is right
Prospero
An ex Manchester controller who knew 6 years ago that we were closing so took contol of his life and left. No ostrich me....

Minesapint - exactly the kind of attitude that gives me nagging doubts about supporting any staff south of the border.

What goes around comes around, remember that:mad:

I don't work at MACC it just seems better for the staff (certainly the ones that I know to move south. Part of the problem here is pretty obvious from the last post. It seems almost like the MACC people need 'permission' of some kind to work at npc - from certain quarters.

npc is political, it makes no sense to even have two centres in the UK anyway. How would ScACC staff feel if they were all moved to Swanwick!

minesapint

i don't think anybody up here would disagree with you in the fact that we would be as annoyed as you are with an enforced move south of the border. You'd get the same arguments that have been raised previously here about kids schools, partners careers,family ties, big upheavals etc. We can't argue and we sympathise ( No really we do)
As someone who is from south of the border i can honestly say that i have not regretted the posting here one jot.the people have been very friendly the nightlife varied and colourful (and cheaper), the golf fantastic, you've got 2 great cities within a couple of hours (or if you live in glasgow 1 hour) travel so the leaving a bustling city argument is not a valid one.
my point here is that far from being a closetted environment all of you would be welcomed and help offered if required.

prospero makes a good point though. This has been coming for 6 years and it would seem that the lumbering giant that is our management are not likely to change their stratagy for two centres.prospero decided to leave and get on with his life (good for him) i know there have been rumours of some crappy gentlemans agreement which has prevented more of you from leaving (which i think the union should look at) to work at canada etc. but the time for slateing the npc move is over, its going to happen. live with it or resign and do something else that will make you happy coz this job obviously isnt at the moment

Been brought up before, but the word here is that ALL interviews have been temporarily halted so Nav Canada can take stock of how succesful the "experienced controller" program has been regarding check out (validation) numbers and the actual training program being used in the centres. Training focus is also begining to focus on the new CAATS system (Canadaian version of NERC) which is supposed to be implemented in the not too distant future.

Oh please!!!!

You are a whinger!

Technically you might be correct, but it is really just part of the United Kingdom. It takes, what 6 hours, to drive from Manch. to Glasgow. That's how long it took me when I was there in 2000. You speak the same language, use the same currency, pay tax to the same government. Matee, I'd say you're drawing a long bow to keep harping about moving countries when travelling from Manch. to Prestwick.

Melb. to Perth is a 4 hour jet flight. Can't be driven in two days by a single driver. You can't pop across to Melb. for the weekend from Perth like you can drive up to Scotland for the weekend from Manchester.

I think your harping on the "it's in a different country" is petty and churlish. You miss the point. Any move will mean an upheaval for the controllers and their families. The move, if it is really necessary, should be done with the minium impact on the staff involved. What has been done here? And have you involved your union if you think that it could be done better?

DP, did you go via London??? Should be about a 3-hour drive from Manch to Glasgow. Manch to Swanwick, now THAT could be a 6-hour drive. Longer if you hit the M6 at rush hour...

To those who say that Scottish legal quals are accepted in England and not vice versa, not so. A law degree in Scotland (other than English Law which is available at Dundee Uni) and subsequent qualification is solely in Scots law. Having said that, there is a growing need for English solicitors in Scotland, and Scottish ones in England, and several major firms have offices in both countries. As for teachers, a PGCE is a PGCE is a PGCE, regardless of the country in which it was gained. Medical and dental quals are the same too, and though there are separate institutes of chartered accountancy, their qualifications are accepted by each other as equals.

quote:
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"Will be interesting to see what happens when the S7 sims need to be staffed by Manchester ATCOs in preparation for that sector moving north............"
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Not really to do with CC moving north, but how do NATS management justify moving what is in effect a band 5 sector to a band 4 unit? Did it suddenly just get quieter? Will the guys working S7 get Band 5 pay every half hour they plug in? Surely the union should be looking at this a lot closer. This isn't the first sector to move up from Swanwick.

And it won't be the last.

Actually they haven't had the courtesy yet to even mention it to the Union at Manchester yet. The first the Union heard about it was in a watch briefing 2 days after an official meeting with management who "forgot" to bring it up.

As and when they tell the Union about it, yes I'm sure the Union will do something about it, but again as someone mentioned earlier it all depends on whether the members are prepared to put up and fight or will they simply walk away and accept it?

Given the mood at Manchester at the moment I think it is safe to assume that just about everyone is well up for a fight.:ok:

Dirty Pierre, think you've had too much of your weak lager pal - I'm in Scotland so I'm not moving anywhere. I'm fairly sympathetic to those moving north (with aforementioned reservations). Thanks for backing up the Oz stereotype though :-)
As for using the same currency, I've had my Scottish money refused many times in England. We have separate education, law and church. They may agree in many ways but the point is they are Scottish, not those of another country. As a Scot I wouldn't fancy living in England therefore it's easy for me to be sympathetic with those down south having to consider a move north. Yes we're supposedly mobile but as a previous poster mentioned if we'd indicated we weren't too keen on moving we wouldn't be in the job full stop. Area ATCOs don't tend to move around too much, and short staffing will continue to support a stable home life.
All I can say to the Manch guys is that Scotland and this particular part of Scotland is fairly welcoming. Prestwick may be small but it's full of "outsiders" (I'm one) and I'm sure after the initial upheaval many will agree it's not a bad move at all.
Disclaimer :
None of the above shall be construed as excusing both Management or Union, the former for initial action, the latter for lack of.

Delta - to say we have a different church is a bit of a stretch, as there is no established church in Scotland like there is in England (the Cof S having no bishops to sit in the House of Lords, but then with Blair's reforms there aren't any "Lords Eclesiastical" anymore). But for those rare ATCOs who do go to church on a regular basis and belong to the C of E, the Episcopal Church of Scotland follows exactly the same litergy and creed, and incidentally is older than the Church of Scotland (presbyterian).

As for having Scottish bank notes refused, I have had them eyed suspiciously many times in England, but NEVER refused as I stand my ground and point out the the bit on Scottish notes where it says "I promise to the pay the bearer on demand the sum of X pounds Sterling". On a purely legal note, Scottish banks do not issue "legal tender" - only the Bank of England can do that as it houses the government's gold reserves. Scottish banks issue promisory notes. They are however legal currency in England, Wales and NI.
Welcome to PPRUNE, your trivia website....

I have been accused of having no concern or sympathy with Manchester staff. Fair enough!, I cant argue with that. Yet all we hear about on this thread is the plight of the Manchester ATCOs and their imposed move to Prestwick at the company expense to do the job for which they are paid. Chiglet has mentioned on this thread about the plight of the Manchester ATSAs for the majority of whom there is no post at Prestwick and redundancy, voluntary or not is a most unwelcome possibility. There has been no concern, sympathy, or messages of support for their plight from any of the people posting on here including some of their own colleagues at Manchester. Once again all we see is the selfish, egotistical, petulant, and arrogant display which chracterises some members of the ATCO grade.

It was 1996, on "Black Friday" which is the start of the school holidays in September I think. 6 hours is a pretty long time for the trip, but the traffic was terrible, and I included a 1 hour stop as well.

Negative matee! Quite sober when I did the drive and while I'm posting here. Besides, is our lager weaker than yours? I didn't think it was.

I've been told by our very own ex-pats here in Brissie that the Prestwick area is very nice, and there is even a pretty good golf course near the centre. Of course I don't know how good the local rugby team is, as the Sale rugby team (near Manchester) are pretty good and doing very nicely again this year.