New ATC Documentary on BBC2
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Fourthreethree,
Datalink has been in use over the Pacific for years. Why do the Europeans have to re-invent the wheel all the time? Is this just a contest to see who can urinate the furthest up the wall?
No one. Which is precisely why it is not a job that should be done by a human. The process needs to be automated. There are enormous volumes of data processing involved - something that computers do exceedingly well but which even the most highly trained humans do rather poorly.
You continue issuing instructions to aircraft that are flying an RA????
Prepare for another Lake Constance disaster!
With regards to datalink, I am very sceptical. At Maastricht we are experimenting with CPDLC, a datalink system in the early stages of development.
Right. And who can input those restrictions at that speed?
To answer your ill thought out point, the last two times I have needed to give emergency avoiding action was solely due to TCAS. False RA's which the pilot is obliged to act upon are the scurge of my life....
Prepare for another Lake Constance disaster!
Finally someone has put their finger on the real reason fo the Indian midair. It was not, as the program banged on about incessantly, solely due to the pilot not understanding English, another major contributing factor was the use of a flight level when issuing traffic information. This tragedy led to a change in SP to be used when giving traffic, ie
"Traffic 12 o'clock 1000 feet above "
and NOT
"Traffic 12 o'clock at FL140"
"Traffic 12 o'clock 1000 feet above "
and NOT
"Traffic 12 o'clock at FL140"
If you are from the UK then I wouldn’t start throwing stones – glass houses and all that.
Tell me again - how many ICAO differences has the UK filed?
Tell me again - how many ICAO differences has the UK filed?
You may now descend with the thread... :-)
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Oh dear oh dear.
No. Read my words before opening your mouth next time. I do give advisory traffic information and suggest avoiding action. Did I mention the word "instruction"? No. The avoiding action I gave on both occasions was a turn to the traffic not involved in the TCAS debacle.
Apology accepted.
Notice you skipped over my point re: safety and datalink. You argue against yourself quite well there. Yes datalink could work faster than a human. As far as I'm aware thats not under discussion. The point is that if it fails, and it will then the controller needs to be able to take over, which would not be possible with your scenario.
Finally, CPDLC had a predecessor, PETAL, which was used also for years, and much was learned from it. Europe are not "reinventing the wheel" as you put it, but Eurocontrol along with many other organisations, are putting a great deal of time, effort and money into a huge project which is seen as the future of ATC.
You continue issuing instructions to aircraft that are flying an RA????
Apology accepted.
Notice you skipped over my point re: safety and datalink. You argue against yourself quite well there. Yes datalink could work faster than a human. As far as I'm aware thats not under discussion. The point is that if it fails, and it will then the controller needs to be able to take over, which would not be possible with your scenario.
Finally, CPDLC had a predecessor, PETAL, which was used also for years, and much was learned from it. Europe are not "reinventing the wheel" as you put it, but Eurocontrol along with many other organisations, are putting a great deal of time, effort and money into a huge project which is seen as the future of ATC.
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Dry Feet,
http://www.eurocontrol.int/dgs/publi..._interface.pdf
http://www.ainonline.com/issues/07_0...an2005p83.html
BIK,
Re-inventing the wheel? Don't think so. Operational trials over Europe since 95. For once that Europe is leading the way it should be told or if you want to hear it from the FAA itself :
According to one FAA official, “In the past, we used to be able to show the Europeans that we usually had the better arguments for change, and the technology to back us up. But over the last few years they have developed powerful and well prepared positions and technical capabilities that we are finding increasingly hard to counter.” Some Washington insiders believe that the September ICAO Conference may turn into a watershed event, where the traditional U.S. leadership in ATC affairs could find itself seriously challenged
http://www.eurocontrol.int/dgs/publi..._interface.pdf
http://www.ainonline.com/issues/07_0...an2005p83.html
BIK,
Re-inventing the wheel? Don't think so. Operational trials over Europe since 95. For once that Europe is leading the way it should be told or if you want to hear it from the FAA itself :
According to one FAA official, “In the past, we used to be able to show the Europeans that we usually had the better arguments for change, and the technology to back us up. But over the last few years they have developed powerful and well prepared positions and technical capabilities that we are finding increasingly hard to counter.” Some Washington insiders believe that the September ICAO Conference may turn into a watershed event, where the traditional U.S. leadership in ATC affairs could find itself seriously challenged
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Bik
Chill out man!! I think that your inflammatory posts are getting people's backs up. On the one hand you say "that's your opinion" then you jump on anyone proffering an opinion that differs from yours. Calm down dear, it's just a forum.
On the subject of datalink, I don't think that anyone can be in any doubt that it IS the future. Whether we like it or not, eventually all controllers will no longer fill the role that we have now, but we will act as system monitors and only intervene when things get out of hand. I'm not talking about next Wednesday, but in the future it will happen, it has to. How else are we going to reduce controllers workloads sufficiently to accomodate the massive predicted increases in traffic?
Datalink will remove a lot of "chores" that do not have massive safety bearings (initial flight plan clearances, changes in routings etc.) and allow controllers to concentrate on keeping planes apart. WHEN the technology allows then maybe we can start to let it take over a bit more but there remains a lot of work to be done.
So BIK, enter into the swing of things. Casting aspersions on someone's ability to keep planes apart ain't professional (unless it is Jerricho, widely known to be useless
). If you re-read the chaps' post it was a FALSE RA anyhow.
P7
Chill out man!! I think that your inflammatory posts are getting people's backs up. On the one hand you say "that's your opinion" then you jump on anyone proffering an opinion that differs from yours. Calm down dear, it's just a forum.
On the subject of datalink, I don't think that anyone can be in any doubt that it IS the future. Whether we like it or not, eventually all controllers will no longer fill the role that we have now, but we will act as system monitors and only intervene when things get out of hand. I'm not talking about next Wednesday, but in the future it will happen, it has to. How else are we going to reduce controllers workloads sufficiently to accomodate the massive predicted increases in traffic?
Datalink will remove a lot of "chores" that do not have massive safety bearings (initial flight plan clearances, changes in routings etc.) and allow controllers to concentrate on keeping planes apart. WHEN the technology allows then maybe we can start to let it take over a bit more but there remains a lot of work to be done.
So BIK, enter into the swing of things. Casting aspersions on someone's ability to keep planes apart ain't professional (unless it is Jerricho, widely known to be useless
). If you re-read the chaps' post it was a FALSE RA anyhow.P7
More than just an ATCO
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BIK 116/8 for info on what is being done in Europe on CPLDC go to www.eurocontrol.int and search for DALI
After you've read that lot come back and tell us we're reinventing the wheel.
EGPF Ffyer the French pilot was talking merde. The National Authority lays down which languages can be used where. Normally to be found in the AIP.
At one time Belgium still insisted that Maastricht UAC used French as well as English in the Brussels sectors. This despite no requirement for the controller to have French as a language.
Many states (inc. Germany still?) have frequencies allocated to their own language, normally only for VFR.
Five official languages (plua American) It doesn't require fluency, but just understanding the words, climb, descend and turn, may be enough to save your life.
For many reasons,with 4-3-3 on TCAS. Unfortunately it does not provide situational awareness but seems to be encouraging the opposite.
Take as an example a reporting point where 3 inbound routes converge for Amsterdam, EEL. Take an inbound flight descending to fl260 to cross EEL at level. After the usual, do we have to start down now, do we have to be level at EEL (Really, it's on the tape)
descent commences 4.500 to 5000 fpm. Passing FL265 the aircraft levels off then starts to climb and turn !!! Reason TCAS alert on traffic maintaining FL250. Pilot starts to bad mouth ATC.
Unfortunately this is happening more and more, together with questioning of instruction to turn,: traffic info then given response is ,"We see him on TCAS"
Lon More. more than just an Atco
Garp and Point 7 hadn't seen your post when I started
After you've read that lot come back and tell us we're reinventing the wheel.
EGPF Ffyer the French pilot was talking merde. The National Authority lays down which languages can be used where. Normally to be found in the AIP.
At one time Belgium still insisted that Maastricht UAC used French as well as English in the Brussels sectors. This despite no requirement for the controller to have French as a language.
Many states (inc. Germany still?) have frequencies allocated to their own language, normally only for VFR.
Five official languages (plua American) It doesn't require fluency, but just understanding the words, climb, descend and turn, may be enough to save your life.
For many reasons,with 4-3-3 on TCAS. Unfortunately it does not provide situational awareness but seems to be encouraging the opposite.
Take as an example a reporting point where 3 inbound routes converge for Amsterdam, EEL. Take an inbound flight descending to fl260 to cross EEL at level. After the usual, do we have to start down now, do we have to be level at EEL (Really, it's on the tape)
descent commences 4.500 to 5000 fpm. Passing FL265 the aircraft levels off then starts to climb and turn !!! Reason TCAS alert on traffic maintaining FL250. Pilot starts to bad mouth ATC.
Unfortunately this is happening more and more, together with questioning of instruction to turn,: traffic info then given response is ,"We see him on TCAS"
Lon More. more than just an Atco
Garp and Point 7 hadn't seen your post when I started
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Or maybe if certain pilots learned to use their TCAS it would also help. As heard a few days ago......
Maas "XYZ123 descend FL300"
XYZ123 "Er Maastricht confirm we have traffic on TCAS 1000 feet below?"
Maas "Negative sir traffic is 1000 feet above "
XYZ123 "Ok, roger descending FL300"
Point seven
Cheers, glad to hear people in here can read, I was starting to wonder....
Maas "XYZ123 descend FL300"
XYZ123 "Er Maastricht confirm we have traffic on TCAS 1000 feet below?"
Maas "Negative sir traffic is 1000 feet above "
XYZ123 "Ok, roger descending FL300"
Point seven
Cheers, glad to hear people in here can read, I was starting to wonder....
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On the subject of Datalink, although I have no experience of it, I can't see that it can be quicker than verbal commication.
I imagine that from the time that I decide I want to give an instuction in my head, I would have to:-
click on an a/c, select the type of instruction, click on climb or descend, click the desired level, select any level by restriction, confirm the instruction and then send. The pilot would then have to see the instruction and then send an acknowledged reply which I would then also have to see.
How would that be quicker than saying " C/S descend FL250 level by LOGAN" , "Roger descending FL250 Level by LOGAN, c/s"
Please correct me if that is not how it works.
On the subject of fully automated ATC, when will we learn that humans are NOT good system monitors. Our concentration levels always lapse when we are asked to do boring and monotonous tasks like checking that a computer is doing it's job properly.
History is littered with disasters caused by this very fact.
Humans are far better when they have to think about what they are doing, formulating plans and activley problem solving. Sure we make mistakes, but we are also in a far better position to spot and correct those mistakes if it is us that have made them!
I imagine that from the time that I decide I want to give an instuction in my head, I would have to:-
click on an a/c, select the type of instruction, click on climb or descend, click the desired level, select any level by restriction, confirm the instruction and then send. The pilot would then have to see the instruction and then send an acknowledged reply which I would then also have to see.
How would that be quicker than saying " C/S descend FL250 level by LOGAN" , "Roger descending FL250 Level by LOGAN, c/s"
Please correct me if that is not how it works.
On the subject of fully automated ATC, when will we learn that humans are NOT good system monitors. Our concentration levels always lapse when we are asked to do boring and monotonous tasks like checking that a computer is doing it's job properly.
History is littered with disasters caused by this very fact.
Humans are far better when they have to think about what they are doing, formulating plans and activley problem solving. Sure we make mistakes, but we are also in a far better position to spot and correct those mistakes if it is us that have made them!
Last edited by Slippers; 5th Aug 2003 at 04:07.
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Slippers,
You are writing what thousands of colleagues are thinking. How will Datalink help me in my day to day work and will it make my life easier?
It is vital to understand that the present use of Datalink is purely strategic and not tactical. The difference being that strategic use includes non-time critical, routine communications and that tactical use covers basically all the rest where the speed of transmission and receipt are critical for the safety of the a/c.
The idea is to share tasks on a sector suit. This implies that two controllers are on the sector. One executive and one assistant. The tasks that can be done by the assistant are route clearances, squawk changes, frequency changes, confirmations of requested levels etc. Quite some extra frequency time can be offered to the executive in this way. One superb extra feature is the "check mike" instruction in case of a stuck mike on the freq.
As you can see there are benefits to the system and it's needless to say that things will improve in the coming years. Still I'm convinced that voice will remain essential with the present ATC systems for the coming decades.
You are writing what thousands of colleagues are thinking. How will Datalink help me in my day to day work and will it make my life easier?
It is vital to understand that the present use of Datalink is purely strategic and not tactical. The difference being that strategic use includes non-time critical, routine communications and that tactical use covers basically all the rest where the speed of transmission and receipt are critical for the safety of the a/c.
The idea is to share tasks on a sector suit. This implies that two controllers are on the sector. One executive and one assistant. The tasks that can be done by the assistant are route clearances, squawk changes, frequency changes, confirmations of requested levels etc. Quite some extra frequency time can be offered to the executive in this way. One superb extra feature is the "check mike" instruction in case of a stuck mike on the freq.
As you can see there are benefits to the system and it's needless to say that things will improve in the coming years. Still I'm convinced that voice will remain essential with the present ATC systems for the coming decades.
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OK, two observations from a low-time PPL...
First, I don't understand this datalink idea - how does a text message on a screen allow a commercial pilot to gain situational awareness of what other aircraft are doing? If messages for other aircraft are also displayed, surely there is a much greater risk of "mis-reading" an instruction intended for someone else, especially if the messages are scrolling upwards as new ones are received. I'm also rather nervous about the pilot using his eyes to receive clearances - his eyes should be looking for other traffic and/or monitoring the instruments. In most flying the ears aren't heavily used, so are ideal for getting instructions into the brain. Perhaps I'm missing something????
Second, on the subject of controlled airspace, I'm going to make myself very unpopular with a lot of GA pilots. I personally have no objection to their being controlled airspace over the whole of the UK from surface to orbit PROVIDED that all aircraft (including GA) have an equal right to fly through the vast majority of it with nothing more than a radio and a Mode-C transponder. OK, so some vintage types with no electrical system may have problems complying with the "radio+Mode-C" bit, but it's not unsurmountable even for them. I'd expect something like 95% of airspace below FL100 to be class-E or class-D with comprehensive secondary radar cover and staffed to provide RIS/LARS to all, with class-C (or even class-B) airspace around the busier airports. Hmmm - sounds a bit like the US.... Who knows - it might even improve the standard of R/T from GA pilots!
MD
First, I don't understand this datalink idea - how does a text message on a screen allow a commercial pilot to gain situational awareness of what other aircraft are doing? If messages for other aircraft are also displayed, surely there is a much greater risk of "mis-reading" an instruction intended for someone else, especially if the messages are scrolling upwards as new ones are received. I'm also rather nervous about the pilot using his eyes to receive clearances - his eyes should be looking for other traffic and/or monitoring the instruments. In most flying the ears aren't heavily used, so are ideal for getting instructions into the brain. Perhaps I'm missing something????
Second, on the subject of controlled airspace, I'm going to make myself very unpopular with a lot of GA pilots. I personally have no objection to their being controlled airspace over the whole of the UK from surface to orbit PROVIDED that all aircraft (including GA) have an equal right to fly through the vast majority of it with nothing more than a radio and a Mode-C transponder. OK, so some vintage types with no electrical system may have problems complying with the "radio+Mode-C" bit, but it's not unsurmountable even for them. I'd expect something like 95% of airspace below FL100 to be class-E or class-D with comprehensive secondary radar cover and staffed to provide RIS/LARS to all, with class-C (or even class-B) airspace around the busier airports. Hmmm - sounds a bit like the US.... Who knows - it might even improve the standard of R/T from GA pilots!
MD
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Hey BIK, what's your malfunction. Suggesting "if you kept your planes further apart.....etc" is way out of line. I invite you (and I'm sure other ATCO's would agree here) to come and watch a radar of a very busy Terminal environment, where there are so many pressures of using minimum separation standards.
I'm sure you would get mighty p*ssed off if somebody told you how to do your job.
(Of course, we don't bother telling P7 how to do his, cause you can't improve on perfection, can you? Oh, and stop reminding people how much I suck............they know!)
I do have a question reference datalink. Let's look at an final approach situation where the a lander suddenly burst a tyre and spills it on the runway. What will happen to the 6 jets following. How will missed approach/breaking off instructions be issued? I'm intested in hearing BIK's thoughts on this one!
Just as an aside as well about technology supposedly making our lives easier, look at thetrial of FAST (Final Approach Spacing Tool) by LHR approach. Playing that things rules was dangerous, and many people showed better landing rates than the machine (apart from me, eh P7?).
I'm sure you would get mighty p*ssed off if somebody told you how to do your job.
(Of course, we don't bother telling P7 how to do his, cause you can't improve on perfection, can you? Oh, and stop reminding people how much I suck............they know!)
I do have a question reference datalink. Let's look at an final approach situation where the a lander suddenly burst a tyre and spills it on the runway. What will happen to the 6 jets following. How will missed approach/breaking off instructions be issued? I'm intested in hearing BIK's thoughts on this one!
Just as an aside as well about technology supposedly making our lives easier, look at thetrial of FAST (Final Approach Spacing Tool) by LHR approach. Playing that things rules was dangerous, and many people showed better landing rates than the machine (apart from me, eh P7?).
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BIK,
Avoiding Action is rarely used because we've let separation erode.
It is mainly used outside controlled airspace because of pop up traffic or fast moving military traffic whose intentions we do not know and starts to do a dirty dive right towards your aeroplane, if you like I can refuse to provide you with a Radar Advisory Service and just give you a Radar Information Service (or if I'm really busy giving avoiding action to IFR traffic under a Radar Control Service in Class E airspace against pop up traffic 12 o clock 1 mile no height information) I could give you a Flight Information service and let you try and sort things out yourself against primary radar returns or that fast moving military traffic you've no chance of seeing.
We do a bloody good job stopping aeroplanes banging into each other, a darn sight better than any computer could do via datalink.
Flyer it'll be you lucky day if I ever tell 6G to orbit and follow you from dumbarton, when I do, I'll expect the biggest bottle of single malt you can get your hands on
Avoiding Action is rarely used because we've let separation erode.
It is mainly used outside controlled airspace because of pop up traffic or fast moving military traffic whose intentions we do not know and starts to do a dirty dive right towards your aeroplane, if you like I can refuse to provide you with a Radar Advisory Service and just give you a Radar Information Service (or if I'm really busy giving avoiding action to IFR traffic under a Radar Control Service in Class E airspace against pop up traffic 12 o clock 1 mile no height information) I could give you a Flight Information service and let you try and sort things out yourself against primary radar returns or that fast moving military traffic you've no chance of seeing.
We do a bloody good job stopping aeroplanes banging into each other, a darn sight better than any computer could do via datalink.
Flyer it'll be you lucky day if I ever tell 6G to orbit and follow you from dumbarton, when I do, I'll expect the biggest bottle of single malt you can get your hands on
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MD
Bit of a problem there the number of LARS units in ever decreasing, controller shortages and cash may not be available to upgrade the present system - would the GA comunity like to pay more for the service?
Regards
Pie
I'd expect something like 95% of airspace below FL100 to be class-E or class-D with comprehensive secondary radar cover and staffed to provide RIS/LARS to all
Regards
Pie
You know, I'm not sure that we all watched the same programme! I got the distinct impression from watching 'that programme' that I didn't exist for a start. ATC seems to be split between 'civil' area ATC and NV, NT, SH and PD approach. Ummmm, so what about all those so beautifully red-shaded bits on your map BBC where ATSOCAS are provided (generally) by military units, be they terminal or area????
33 nms to get round to P18? Can't increase the cost overheads that much. The problem occurs not so much when you get pilots who obviously don't have that great a grasp of English, but pilots who don't have a clue what TOS they're being provided, or even that they're off-route. If civil airlines are going to 'persuade' their pilots to fly IFR in class G airspace, they should at least ensure that the pilots are briefed effectively as to THEIR and my responsibilities to their transit. Should some of these guys really be allowed to fly in class G? Do their passengers know that they're doing it??
33 nms to get round to P18? Can't increase the cost overheads that much. The problem occurs not so much when you get pilots who obviously don't have that great a grasp of English, but pilots who don't have a clue what TOS they're being provided, or even that they're off-route. If civil airlines are going to 'persuade' their pilots to fly IFR in class G airspace, they should at least ensure that the pilots are briefed effectively as to THEIR and my responsibilities to their transit. Should some of these guys really be allowed to fly in class G? Do their passengers know that they're doing it??
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Considering the journalist was making a point about language he should be proud of the best malapropism I've heard for years when he said the young indian chap was "ambiguous" about getting on the Saudia flight!
Everybody's gotta be somewhere
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Refering to whowhenwhys post, I'd always assumed (as SLF) that if I was on a civil airliner, flying a scheduled flight, that I would be safely protected within controlled airspace with an ATCO watching over me.
It was quite a shock to see that there are civil airports that don't (or didn't) have protected routes.
As someone who once wanted to be an ATCO this has been an illuminating thread, possibly more illuminating than last nights program. Thank you to all.
dd
It was quite a shock to see that there are civil airports that don't (or didn't) have protected routes.
As someone who once wanted to be an ATCO this has been an illuminating thread, possibly more illuminating than last nights program. Thank you to all.
dd
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As another SLF, thanks guys for your comments - it has broadened my point of view seeing the professionals' response to the programme.
Most of you will probably have missed the subtitle for the deaf which converted "situational awareness" into "situation unawareness"
TV
Most of you will probably have missed the subtitle for the deaf which converted "situational awareness" into "situation unawareness"
TV