Questions for Manchester People
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Questions for Manchester People
A question for the fine ladies and gentlemen at EGCC. You may know of my site which exists, primarily, to document the history of Reporting Points before those involved in their naming leave the ATC profession and all the anecdotes are lost forever.
The site has been expanded in recent months to include details of major beacons and, even more recently, to include photographs (two so far, Pole Hill and Whitegate).
As I live near Manchester, it makes sense to look in detail at the local stuff. Looking at an undated Jeppesen chart for 06 lurking in the 1992 edition of Trevor Thom's Book 5, I can see a beacon at Congleton (CON on 360.5). This has presumably long since disappeared to be replaced by DAYNE. There was also a BOLIN hold (on the 230 Radial from POL at 16 DME). This was replaced by the LYLAK hold (on the 076 Radial from WAL at 27 DME) when POL was out of service. Manchester Tower was on 118.7.
Does anyone remember those days? All information such as when CON ceased to be and when/why the BOLIN and LYLAK holds were superseded is very welcome. How did LYLAK get its name? Where in/near Congleton was CON located?
Turning to the 1997 edition of the same Trevor Thom book, there is a 1994 Aerad chart, again for 06. CON has gone and DAYNE has appeared. BOLIN and LYLAK are still there, but now sport references to MCT in addition to POL and WAL.
There is still a beacon at Oldham (OLD on 344). I presume that has vanished sometime during the last nine years. Any knowledge?
The chart also shows two beacons (locators?) on the extended centreline of 24/06. There is ME on 396 and MCR on 388. No mention of MCH though. I would guess that ME and MCR are long gone - do we know exactly when? Where were they on the ground?
The chart also shows two markers at 3.9 DME (MCR I think) and 0.8 DME. These have disappeared from the latest charts. Would it be a fair guess that markers are somewhat outmoded in this world of ILS/DME etc? If so, was 1994 a time when Manchester had ILS (or more to the point DME) but the markers were still there "just in case"? I tend to hear "160 to 4" a lot, but just occasionally, one of you says "160 to the outer marker" - old habits die hard? -- or are they still there? If so, where?
I have also spotted that Whitegate appears to be bang on the extended centreline - I'm sure that can't be coincidence, but it seems to have nothing to do with Manchester operations today. Any ideas?
Folks, having read that again I realise that there is a lot there. I would welcome any snippets, however sketchy. I will of course be more than happy to mention any contributors on the site in the acknowledgements section.
Thanks in advance,
Nick Locke
The site has been expanded in recent months to include details of major beacons and, even more recently, to include photographs (two so far, Pole Hill and Whitegate).
As I live near Manchester, it makes sense to look in detail at the local stuff. Looking at an undated Jeppesen chart for 06 lurking in the 1992 edition of Trevor Thom's Book 5, I can see a beacon at Congleton (CON on 360.5). This has presumably long since disappeared to be replaced by DAYNE. There was also a BOLIN hold (on the 230 Radial from POL at 16 DME). This was replaced by the LYLAK hold (on the 076 Radial from WAL at 27 DME) when POL was out of service. Manchester Tower was on 118.7.
Does anyone remember those days? All information such as when CON ceased to be and when/why the BOLIN and LYLAK holds were superseded is very welcome. How did LYLAK get its name? Where in/near Congleton was CON located?
Turning to the 1997 edition of the same Trevor Thom book, there is a 1994 Aerad chart, again for 06. CON has gone and DAYNE has appeared. BOLIN and LYLAK are still there, but now sport references to MCT in addition to POL and WAL.
There is still a beacon at Oldham (OLD on 344). I presume that has vanished sometime during the last nine years. Any knowledge?
The chart also shows two beacons (locators?) on the extended centreline of 24/06. There is ME on 396 and MCR on 388. No mention of MCH though. I would guess that ME and MCR are long gone - do we know exactly when? Where were they on the ground?
The chart also shows two markers at 3.9 DME (MCR I think) and 0.8 DME. These have disappeared from the latest charts. Would it be a fair guess that markers are somewhat outmoded in this world of ILS/DME etc? If so, was 1994 a time when Manchester had ILS (or more to the point DME) but the markers were still there "just in case"? I tend to hear "160 to 4" a lot, but just occasionally, one of you says "160 to the outer marker" - old habits die hard? -- or are they still there? If so, where?
I have also spotted that Whitegate appears to be bang on the extended centreline - I'm sure that can't be coincidence, but it seems to have nothing to do with Manchester operations today. Any ideas?
Folks, having read that again I realise that there is a lot there. I would welcome any snippets, however sketchy. I will of course be more than happy to mention any contributors on the site in the acknowledgements section.
Thanks in advance,
Nick Locke
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Beacons
Don't forget ORMSKIRK NDB which was available as a holding point, but with a maximum speed restriction; which made it suitable for propellor driven aircraft. The LPL NDB used to be the OE and is at the back of a garage in Runcorn not far from the Widnes bridge. Liverpool's runway used to be 28 before becoming 27, and when it was fairly new it was revolutionary in the way the surface drained, after a while the pilots reported that it appeared to be a bit like a bowling green or even a long golf fairway.......true enough it was ingrained with a kind of moss which thrived under such conditions.
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Nick,
Don't forget LEEK fan marker
Th MCR was [I think] the ILS O/M situated near Stockport County's ground "Edgley Park". OLD has gone, as has MILLBROOK R/P. Most "holds" now are Radial/DME from the MCT [I will check this tomorrow am]
hope this helps
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
Don't forget LEEK fan marker
Th MCR was [I think] the ILS O/M situated near Stockport County's ground "Edgley Park". OLD has gone, as has MILLBROOK R/P. Most "holds" now are Radial/DME from the MCT [I will check this tomorrow am]hope this helps
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
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Chiglet - thanks. Do the outer and middle markers still actually exist, or have they been superseded by DME??
Everyone else - please keep it coming!
Thanks.
Everyone else - please keep it coming!
Thanks.
EGCC Rwy 24.
You're correct in assuming the outer markers have been withdrawn. DME has superceeded the need for them as they are much more accurate 'distance to go' clues than just an audible warning at around 4nms. Most airfields introduced ILS/DME over the last 8 years or so and withdrew their markers. The system also has the added advantage of not requiring a site, for which a rent would need to be paid, off airfield. This also was a reason, (but not the only one), behind the establishment of NDB's on airfield instead of them being co-located with the old outer marker. Thus, no more MCR and ME. Just the MCH. East Midlands is one of the few airfields remaining in the U.K. with the old double NDB system.
NDB's like OLD were intended to provide track guidance for Standard Instrument Departures years ago. Leek was a fan marker to provide en-route airways guidance. All it told you was that you were over it by an audible and visual warning, LYNAS operated similarly for the old airway Blue 1 on the Northern tip of Anglesey. We can laugh at such inaccurate devices now but they were the bees knees around the 1950's! I apologise if I'm telling you what you've already deduced as you're obviously really into this!
Spiney
You're correct in assuming the outer markers have been withdrawn. DME has superceeded the need for them as they are much more accurate 'distance to go' clues than just an audible warning at around 4nms. Most airfields introduced ILS/DME over the last 8 years or so and withdrew their markers. The system also has the added advantage of not requiring a site, for which a rent would need to be paid, off airfield. This also was a reason, (but not the only one), behind the establishment of NDB's on airfield instead of them being co-located with the old outer marker. Thus, no more MCR and ME. Just the MCH. East Midlands is one of the few airfields remaining in the U.K. with the old double NDB system.
NDB's like OLD were intended to provide track guidance for Standard Instrument Departures years ago. Leek was a fan marker to provide en-route airways guidance. All it told you was that you were over it by an audible and visual warning, LYNAS operated similarly for the old airway Blue 1 on the Northern tip of Anglesey. We can laugh at such inaccurate devices now but they were the bees knees around the 1950's! I apologise if I'm telling you what you've already deduced as you're obviously really into this!
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and there was I thinking for years that the marker crossing height was there to verify that I was not on a false glideslope when really I should have been using it as a clue for how far I was from the runway
prim1. I'm not a commercial pilot and don't pretend to be so, but we were always lead to believe that the primary function of the markers was to give 'distance to go information which would be corellated with the passing height/altitude of descent on the glidepath. Therefore providing exactly the function you describe. Also, more importantly, distance info to check rate of descent on a LLZ only approach. Isn't this one and the same thing?
Spiney.
Spiney.
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Spiney Norman - no need for an apology! That is exactly the sort of information I am looking for.
At least now I am not going to spend the weekend mooching round the extended centrelines of 06L and 24R looking for marker beacons! I guess it's a good job someone invented DME - we'd be over run with beacons if we had to have new ones for 06R and 24L aswell.......
Thanks everyone for the information so far - please keep it coming.
At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious - photos are welcome too!
Cheers all,
Nick Locke
At least now I am not going to spend the weekend mooching round the extended centrelines of 06L and 24R looking for marker beacons! I guess it's a good job someone invented DME - we'd be over run with beacons if we had to have new ones for 06R and 24L aswell.......
Thanks everyone for the information so far - please keep it coming.
At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious - photos are welcome too!
Cheers all,
Nick Locke
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prim1
Don't confuse markers which are part of an approach system with markers which may have been present on an airway system many years ago.....think further back to DC-3/4/6/7 etc. days. I'll give you benefit of the doubt that cockiness was not intentional....please recall that some airways were delineated by NDB's and that markers were essential as a position check, particularly where there was a significant terrain feature. [this is only an abbreviated answer to a massive subject and certainly not complete in addressing the point]
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Wasted Energy !
Chaps, please don't waste your energy on each other --- please concentrate it on providing lots of juicy information for my site!
Indeed, in addition to details of beacons etc, I would welcome any short articles around the subject for the site. If you'd like to compete for "headline status" that's up to you!
Thanks,
Nick
Indeed, in addition to details of beacons etc, I would welcome any short articles around the subject for the site. If you'd like to compete for "headline status" that's up to you!
Thanks,
Nick
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Out of interest - was KEGUN named after Kevin or that ATC guru (sorry forgot the name) who died earlier this year?
If it was Kevin, what other footballer-related points exist in the NW of England? I spose BAROS is one. And can we expect HESKY, RUNEY, HYPIA etc if it's always Scousers who name the names?!
If it was Kevin, what other footballer-related points exist in the NW of England? I spose BAROS is one. And can we expect HESKY, RUNEY, HYPIA etc if it's always Scousers who name the names?!
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Just briefly returning to airways fan markers, I only started airways flying at the time they had become pretty rare, say the mid-eighties; it used to happen from time to time that the marker receiver was left on audio by mistake, and we would be flying along, thumb in bum, mind in neutral, doing the crossword or chatting up a hosty when suddenly there would be a yellow flashing light and an insistent "beep-beep-beep-beep".
Used to grab the attention fairly effectively!
Are there any left, does anyone know?
W
Used to grab the attention fairly effectively!
Are there any left, does anyone know?
W
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Thanks guys ---- someone want to do me a couple of paragraphs on what fan markers are all about?
Cheers
PS - Yes I know my site keeps playing up. Easyspace have just told me that their iASP implementation is not robust and suggested that I rewrite the site to use PHP rather than ASP!
Not bad for a service I am paying them to provide. That seems like a good way to keep customers -- not!
Renewal date soon - it'll be more reliable then.
Cheers
PS - Yes I know my site keeps playing up. Easyspace have just told me that their iASP implementation is not robust and suggested that I rewrite the site to use PHP rather than ASP!
Not bad for a service I am paying them to provide. That seems like a good way to keep customers -- not!
Renewal date soon - it'll be more reliable then.
