Is there room in NATS for tower only positions?
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Is there room in NATS for tower only positions?
Having been one of the many students who found themselves axed by NATS at the last stages before graduation, I have sinced gained experience and validated a tower only postion. Is it true despite NATS having many tower only postions, that they still will not take on controllers with only one rating?
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Ask recruitment..... they are the only ones who can give you the correct answer.
However, I VERY much doubt that they will let you enter NATS without a Radar Qual. It would have to be a tower only airport, Heathrow, Luton, Stansted, Gatwick or City. I think someone was recruited for Heathrow about 3 years ago - and it disn't work out so I doubt they would try again.
Also a bit of a political/union slant on this I think.
Having said that - NATS are only going to train students earmarked for the above units in tower only in the future so you never know.
However, I VERY much doubt that they will let you enter NATS without a Radar Qual. It would have to be a tower only airport, Heathrow, Luton, Stansted, Gatwick or City. I think someone was recruited for Heathrow about 3 years ago - and it disn't work out so I doubt they would try again.
Also a bit of a political/union slant on this I think.
Having said that - NATS are only going to train students earmarked for the above units in tower only in the future so you never know.
Last edited by Bright-Ling; 10th Jun 2003 at 05:29.
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I seem to remember a certain tower only ATCO being trained at LL a few years back; but then that was, I am informed, through the back door, secret hand shakes etc etc I believe she is back from whence she came these days.
niknak
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The official line from recruitment is that unless you have all three ratings, don't bother applying.
The unofficial line is, that if you conact the unit manager at the relavant unit, they will assess their requirements against your potential.
It's not unknown for atcos to be employed this way in NATS, but it very much depends on the strength of backbone of the unit manager and how hard they are prepared to fight your cause.
Unfortunately, your postion is not strong, there are many "aerodrome only", rate chopped NATS cadets around, your advantage is that you've validated your rating. I hope that youve managed to pin down a job at the unit you validated at, if so, stay there and take up any opportunity to advance yourself - then look at NATS.
Otherwise you could consider Serco, or Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd - who will only give you sponsership for the approach procedural rating at some outpost youve never heard of, but you'd be well paid for it.
Good luck!
The unofficial line is, that if you conact the unit manager at the relavant unit, they will assess their requirements against your potential.
It's not unknown for atcos to be employed this way in NATS, but it very much depends on the strength of backbone of the unit manager and how hard they are prepared to fight your cause.
Unfortunately, your postion is not strong, there are many "aerodrome only", rate chopped NATS cadets around, your advantage is that you've validated your rating. I hope that youve managed to pin down a job at the unit you validated at, if so, stay there and take up any opportunity to advance yourself - then look at NATS.
Otherwise you could consider Serco, or Highlands and Islands Airports Ltd - who will only give you sponsership for the approach procedural rating at some outpost youve never heard of, but you'd be well paid for it.
Good luck!
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chop chop
During my time at the College, the chop rate was around 30%. Being one of those, I'm not up on the Unit rates, but I know it's still high. As for tower only - this has been covered elsewhere but I gather that Heathrow have taken from outside following sim tests and interviews.
try this link http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=60815
try this link http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=60815
Last edited by Legs11; 11th Jun 2003 at 23:47.
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Tusitala, don't take offence my old mate, I know you happen to be a bloody good controller, and NATS loss is the gain of certain other air traffic providers.
NATS policy on not taking tower only controllers is a bit dumb, I mean all the robots like me sitting there saying "Cleared to Land..", don't need a radar ticket for that do you?! And the chances of me actually getting out of my ivory tower are slim and none due to
a/. the ineptitude of NATS recruitment to actually get the right kind of people into the right kind of places.
b/. the bloody college chopping GOOD students days before the end of their course just to adhere to aome stupid, arcane rule.
Tusitala, you truly are going to a better place.
P7
NATS policy on not taking tower only controllers is a bit dumb, I mean all the robots like me sitting there saying "Cleared to Land..", don't need a radar ticket for that do you?! And the chances of me actually getting out of my ivory tower are slim and none due to
a/. the ineptitude of NATS recruitment to actually get the right kind of people into the right kind of places.
b/. the bloody college chopping GOOD students days before the end of their course just to adhere to aome stupid, arcane rule.
Tusitala, you truly are going to a better place.
P7
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MR - I certainly wouldn't concern myself with the "chop rate" at college at this stage if I were you.
The chop rate varies enormously from course to course - there is no "chop quota" that the college has to meet to prove to SRG that its courses are feisty.
On my course of 29 students, 28 graduated and are still gainfully employed. ALL 29 are still employed in ATC in some capacity. The course before was decimated, so the overall chop rate may well be 30%, but it's not something to lose sleep over. You've done the difficult bit by getting on to a course. If you keep your head down, college will be plain sailing.
Incidentally as Bright-ling said, the college is supposed to be moving to a system whereby students are chosen for a rating on day 1 and don't waste time failing aerodrome courses when they're destined for area control. This should reduce the number of needless casualties and also get people through the system quicker. However, given the pace of change in the company, I suppose it might be installed by 150 course!
The chop rate varies enormously from course to course - there is no "chop quota" that the college has to meet to prove to SRG that its courses are feisty.
On my course of 29 students, 28 graduated and are still gainfully employed. ALL 29 are still employed in ATC in some capacity. The course before was decimated, so the overall chop rate may well be 30%, but it's not something to lose sleep over. You've done the difficult bit by getting on to a course. If you keep your head down, college will be plain sailing.
Incidentally as Bright-ling said, the college is supposed to be moving to a system whereby students are chosen for a rating on day 1 and don't waste time failing aerodrome courses when they're destined for area control. This should reduce the number of needless casualties and also get people through the system quicker. However, given the pace of change in the company, I suppose it might be installed by 150 course!
niknak
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Although thye'd never admit it, I think that the real reason Recruitment want people to have an approach radar ticket as well as aerodrome is so that they can move them to T.C. (Terminal Control - where the majority of approach control for NATS units is done) - if the need arises.
I don't know if atco's who fail to validate at LL or KK, are still given the "opportunity" to go to SS/LC/LF, that used to be the case and would to a certain extent explain why the latterly mentioned units don't often consider outsiders.
Additionally, if you were to work somewhere like Manchester, Cardiff or Aberdeen, where the approach radar is actually done at the airport, you'd be a bit of a waste of resources as a tower only atco.
The same would apply at Edinburgh/Glasgow, although they were going to have a combined approach control service done from just one of the airports - I don't know if this has been implemented.
Perhaps your best bet would be to rob a bank/chat up wealthy relatives, and take the plunge into self sponsership of the approach procedural (still a requirement for many airports), and then the approach radar rating - bloody hard work, but well worth the brush with a breakdown in the long run.
I don't know if atco's who fail to validate at LL or KK, are still given the "opportunity" to go to SS/LC/LF, that used to be the case and would to a certain extent explain why the latterly mentioned units don't often consider outsiders.
Additionally, if you were to work somewhere like Manchester, Cardiff or Aberdeen, where the approach radar is actually done at the airport, you'd be a bit of a waste of resources as a tower only atco.
The same would apply at Edinburgh/Glasgow, although they were going to have a combined approach control service done from just one of the airports - I don't know if this has been implemented.
Perhaps your best bet would be to rob a bank/chat up wealthy relatives, and take the plunge into self sponsership of the approach procedural (still a requirement for many airports), and then the approach radar rating - bloody hard work, but well worth the brush with a breakdown in the long run.
A little bird at Shearwater tells me there are vacancies at Swansea for ATCOs. Being realistic they realise they need a sweetneer to get people there, so they are willing to pay for a APR course for the successful candidate (this would make you MUCH more employable if you ever wanted to move on...).
Before you all rush though, don't think Swansea will be a pushover, it can get quite complex and some don't make it (which then makes yuo less employable).
If anyone is interested I think this link could help Shearwater Training
I think Leo Marriott is the man to speak to.
Good luck to you all
Before you all rush though, don't think Swansea will be a pushover, it can get quite complex and some don't make it (which then makes yuo less employable).
If anyone is interested I think this link could help Shearwater Training
I think Leo Marriott is the man to speak to.
Good luck to you all
Last edited by Dan Dare; 12th Jun 2003 at 19:53.
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Some 'clarification'.
New legislation from our European Bretheren means that shortly a rating may only be held for 5 years without validation, whereupon you have to re-train. Thus not much point in NATS giving Tower to Area controllers, or APR to Tower-only unit controllers, until they actually shift to another unit or discipline. Thus the concept of single rating training at the college has been born, and will commence within the next year [not 150 course, as was mentioned].
Airports controllers will leave the college for their unit with the rating that the unit needs, APR, or Tower, and return to Bournemouth at a time chosen by the unit, to get any further ratings, once the initial one is valid.
Area troops will not do any Tower control, but will concentrate on the radar techniques that Swanwick, MACC and ScOACC require, which although 3 months shorter in length, is delivered on a course with more radar training than they currently recieve. The reasoning is that more Area controllers will validate, and thus a higher overall pass rate will be achieved. MORE PEOPLE WILL PASS OVERALL.
As was stated previously, CATC has no 'chop rate' as the course with 28/29 testified. LTP's course was a bloody good bunch, and we could do with more like them. Some of the other courses have not put in the effort, and have paid the price. One course barely managed 50% graduating.
Like the man [girl?] says, if you work hard at it, you have a good chance of succeeding. Some failed who have gone on to validate their Tower rating, and then gain the other ratings outside NATS. Sometimes this is down to a more mature approach [no pun intended] as they get a bit older and wiser. Sometimes it was just a crappy day that killed off their NATS career. Very few, however, would have validated if they had been passed from CATC instead of failing. Once you get behind the drag curve, it is nearly impossible to catch up by remaining in training. You need the break to re-muster your thoughts, and then get back on the horse.
Will NATS start to trawl through the 'Tower Only' gang out there at the moment, and offer them the olive branch to return? Who knows? It is not outwith the realms of possibility, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
I'm sure I used to have a signature......
New legislation from our European Bretheren means that shortly a rating may only be held for 5 years without validation, whereupon you have to re-train. Thus not much point in NATS giving Tower to Area controllers, or APR to Tower-only unit controllers, until they actually shift to another unit or discipline. Thus the concept of single rating training at the college has been born, and will commence within the next year [not 150 course, as was mentioned].
Airports controllers will leave the college for their unit with the rating that the unit needs, APR, or Tower, and return to Bournemouth at a time chosen by the unit, to get any further ratings, once the initial one is valid.
Area troops will not do any Tower control, but will concentrate on the radar techniques that Swanwick, MACC and ScOACC require, which although 3 months shorter in length, is delivered on a course with more radar training than they currently recieve. The reasoning is that more Area controllers will validate, and thus a higher overall pass rate will be achieved. MORE PEOPLE WILL PASS OVERALL.
As was stated previously, CATC has no 'chop rate' as the course with 28/29 testified. LTP's course was a bloody good bunch, and we could do with more like them. Some of the other courses have not put in the effort, and have paid the price. One course barely managed 50% graduating.
Like the man [girl?] says, if you work hard at it, you have a good chance of succeeding. Some failed who have gone on to validate their Tower rating, and then gain the other ratings outside NATS. Sometimes this is down to a more mature approach [no pun intended] as they get a bit older and wiser. Sometimes it was just a crappy day that killed off their NATS career. Very few, however, would have validated if they had been passed from CATC instead of failing. Once you get behind the drag curve, it is nearly impossible to catch up by remaining in training. You need the break to re-muster your thoughts, and then get back on the horse.
Will NATS start to trawl through the 'Tower Only' gang out there at the moment, and offer them the olive branch to return? Who knows? It is not outwith the realms of possibility, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
I'm sure I used to have a signature......
niknak
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Dances with Boffins:
It always has been the case that if you fail to practise the privilages of a particular rating for 5 years or more, then you lose that rating from your licence and will have to do the approved course again.
I think (and am happy to stand corrected), that if you fail to validate a particular rating within a lesser period of time, and I don't know what that time span is, you will be required to retake the approved course.
DanDare:
Isn't Swansea ATC run by Safeskys? Or have they blown the only contract they had?
I don't think anyone will be exactly rushing there, they'd have to pay an extremely attractive salary package to tempt anyone of any worth there.
It always has been the case that if you fail to practise the privilages of a particular rating for 5 years or more, then you lose that rating from your licence and will have to do the approved course again.
I think (and am happy to stand corrected), that if you fail to validate a particular rating within a lesser period of time, and I don't know what that time span is, you will be required to retake the approved course.
DanDare:
Isn't Swansea ATC run by Safeskys? Or have they blown the only contract they had?
I don't think anyone will be exactly rushing there, they'd have to pay an extremely attractive salary package to tempt anyone of any worth there.
