emergency calls, info wanted
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emergency calls, info wanted
Hi there,
For my company I am working on a document about emergency calls, MAYDAY and PAN PAN.
The problem I am faced with, is that there is little information in the books, although it is quite an important topic.
The info I've found in the books are e.g. ICAO DOC 4444. But that only describes the basic idea. Now I am looking for more experience from the field. I've spoken to colleques who state that some controllers won't understand a PAN-call, based on language problems etc. Can anyone confirm such a thing?
Does anyone know about an incident in which an emergency call should have been given, but where the crew was reluctant to do so, or maybe the otherway around, where they did, but that it was a bit overdone?
And what do I expect from ATC? I've spoken to a ACC guy from Amsterdam, but I have the impression that it various from country to country. (Or maybe from FIR to FIR?)
Any thoughts out there?
Thanks.
skate.
For my company I am working on a document about emergency calls, MAYDAY and PAN PAN.
The problem I am faced with, is that there is little information in the books, although it is quite an important topic.
The info I've found in the books are e.g. ICAO DOC 4444. But that only describes the basic idea. Now I am looking for more experience from the field. I've spoken to colleques who state that some controllers won't understand a PAN-call, based on language problems etc. Can anyone confirm such a thing?
Does anyone know about an incident in which an emergency call should have been given, but where the crew was reluctant to do so, or maybe the otherway around, where they did, but that it was a bit overdone?
And what do I expect from ATC? I've spoken to a ACC guy from Amsterdam, but I have the impression that it various from country to country. (Or maybe from FIR to FIR?)
Any thoughts out there?
Thanks.
skate.
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Does anyone know about an incident in which an emergency call should have been given, but where the crew was reluctant to do so, or maybe the otherway around, where they did, but that it was a bit overdone?
ATC can only give as good a service as is requested. An occasional update and sometimes non technical explanation of the problem is usually a great idea to clarify the position and then we might be able to give more useful information. i.e. if you have an engine shut down and don't want a cross wind from one direction, what are the runways in use and wind strengths and directions at the nearest suitable airports ?
I did once have a large military a/c which requested a direct route to a military airfield. Several minutes after that request he stated the condition was under control and the PAN cancelled. Unfortunately the original PAN call had been so brief that it had partly overlapped another R/T call and I had not heard it !! So if in doubt say it again and always use standard phraseology.
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In the UK Manual of Air Traffic Services there's a bit that says
Although Doc 4444 and the like only cover emergencies in brief. once an emergency has been declared the pilot is getting the benefits of the Alerting Service - if you search on that topic you may find more info.
As for what the pilot gets - especially if it's a MAYDAY, the pilot can expect to get priority handling or whatever he/she wants, perhaps a discrete quiet frequency, to be met with emergency services if appropriate, any information that is requested as quickly as it's possible to get it and whatever else the controller can think of that might help. At least, that's how it should be - although the resources etc that the controller can call on do vary significantly from one place to another.
When a pilot has given certain items of information normally associated with an emergency message but has not prefixed the transmisison with 'MAYDAY' or 'PAN', the controller is to ask the pilot if he wishes to declare an emergency. If the pilot
declines to do so, the controller may, if he thinks it appropriate, carry out the necessary actions as if the pilot had declared an emergency.
declines to do so, the controller may, if he thinks it appropriate, carry out the necessary actions as if the pilot had declared an emergency.
As for what the pilot gets - especially if it's a MAYDAY, the pilot can expect to get priority handling or whatever he/she wants, perhaps a discrete quiet frequency, to be met with emergency services if appropriate, any information that is requested as quickly as it's possible to get it and whatever else the controller can think of that might help. At least, that's how it should be - although the resources etc that the controller can call on do vary significantly from one place to another.
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So emergencies are often handled on standard R/T frequencies? In that case, what's the point of the D+D freq. (121.5 I think)? My experience of maritime VHF is that MAYDAYs, PANs etc. are handled on the emergency channel (channel 16)
Aircraft that are already receiving an ATC service would normally report any emergency on that Air Traffic Control Unit's frequency. Most of the aircraft's pertinent details, prior to the emergency, should already be known to the controller, thus saving time.
Many aircraft, both civil and military, are not always in receipt of a full Air Traffic Control service. Should they get into difficulty, they can obtain rapid assistance from D&D (on 121.5 or 243.0 for military) who can 'fix' the aircraft's position using either radar or 'auto-triangulation'. Assistance with navigation and diversion is also available.
Many aircraft, both civil and military, are not always in receipt of a full Air Traffic Control service. Should they get into difficulty, they can obtain rapid assistance from D&D (on 121.5 or 243.0 for military) who can 'fix' the aircraft's position using either radar or 'auto-triangulation'. Assistance with navigation and diversion is also available.
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Suspicious mind at work here.
New ppruner - aviation phrases - question like this..... the "company" that you are working for wouldn't be the Daily Mirror (or similar) would it?
Careful, guys.
New ppruner - aviation phrases - question like this..... the "company" that you are working for wouldn't be the Daily Mirror (or similar) would it?
Careful, guys.
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GW, you dissappoint me a bit.
A new ppruner?, no, I just don't post that many messages.
The company I work with? Should I say airliner, I thought you might figure that out for yourself.
And what do you want from me? My social security number or my license number? You won't get it over this web.
And then again, if I was from the Daily mirror or the likes. I intend to write an article for our inhouse flight safety bulletin. In case it works out to be an indebt article on the subject, it also might go into ERAA ASWG- publications, thus helping the whole aviation community (as far as Europe regions that is).
And is there any information that is classified in this that a tabloid would want to have? I don't think so. I anm looking for well documented incidents and are stuff in official publications that I can use. Stuff that a tabloid would be able to find as well.
Why I then post this question on the web?
Because you might be able to help me by pointing out where to look for the info. That safes me some time and thus you helping me in an effort to make aviation again a bit safer.
For the others, thanks so far.
Skate
A new ppruner?, no, I just don't post that many messages.
The company I work with? Should I say airliner, I thought you might figure that out for yourself.
And what do you want from me? My social security number or my license number? You won't get it over this web.
And then again, if I was from the Daily mirror or the likes. I intend to write an article for our inhouse flight safety bulletin. In case it works out to be an indebt article on the subject, it also might go into ERAA ASWG- publications, thus helping the whole aviation community (as far as Europe regions that is).
And is there any information that is classified in this that a tabloid would want to have? I don't think so. I anm looking for well documented incidents and are stuff in official publications that I can use. Stuff that a tabloid would be able to find as well.
Why I then post this question on the web?
Because you might be able to help me by pointing out where to look for the info. That safes me some time and thus you helping me in an effort to make aviation again a bit safer.
For the others, thanks so far.
Skate
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From the bottom of every page...
Does Danny - and the site - dissapoint you a bit?
Or could it just be efforts to avoid the possible risk of sensationalism.
I see nothing in your original posting to suggest you work for an airline.
I too am constantly looking for in depth articles and documents incidents - it helps us all. Indeed, I'd be grateful for a copy of your report - as I'm quite deeply involved with "comms" and would be VERY interested to hear of the National differences (I currently operate in the USA......the absolute Master of National differences - and the "Pan Pan" question is constantly being brought up).
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.,
Or could it just be efforts to avoid the possible risk of sensationalism.
I see nothing in your original posting to suggest you work for an airline.
I too am constantly looking for in depth articles and documents incidents - it helps us all. Indeed, I'd be grateful for a copy of your report - as I'm quite deeply involved with "comms" and would be VERY interested to hear of the National differences (I currently operate in the USA......the absolute Master of National differences - and the "Pan Pan" question is constantly being brought up).
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Since every emergency is a unique experience for both aircrew and ATC, then the way it is dealt with is unique.
Whilst the crew have the checklists to go through, the I'll do this, if it does this then we do this etc etc. In ATC things are a bit different, our priority is to get you to the nearest suitable airfield and on the ground as quickly as possible (if that means routeing you out to sea to dump fuel, then we will, if you need to dump fuel asap then we'll climb you or in worst case scenario, cover the residents of the local town in Jet A1).
There are certain details that we will need (for the emergency services and for our own benefit) e.g how the aircraft performance is affected i.e you've lost and engine (which one?), can you only turn in a certain direction? are any other engines or systems affected? How will that affect the approach (will it be a stable approach, a faster than normal landing?)
How many people on board the aircraft? (although I believe that in the UK the emergency crews regard each emergency a/c as being full to capacity).
Can the aircraft maintain height? do the crew require unrestricted descent? How many miles to touchdown do they require? etc etc etc.
The list is endless, basically we do what we can to get the a/c on terra firma as soon as is practicable.
Whilst the crew have the checklists to go through, the I'll do this, if it does this then we do this etc etc. In ATC things are a bit different, our priority is to get you to the nearest suitable airfield and on the ground as quickly as possible (if that means routeing you out to sea to dump fuel, then we will, if you need to dump fuel asap then we'll climb you or in worst case scenario, cover the residents of the local town in Jet A1).
There are certain details that we will need (for the emergency services and for our own benefit) e.g how the aircraft performance is affected i.e you've lost and engine (which one?), can you only turn in a certain direction? are any other engines or systems affected? How will that affect the approach (will it be a stable approach, a faster than normal landing?)
How many people on board the aircraft? (although I believe that in the UK the emergency crews regard each emergency a/c as being full to capacity).
Can the aircraft maintain height? do the crew require unrestricted descent? How many miles to touchdown do they require? etc etc etc.
The list is endless, basically we do what we can to get the a/c on terra firma as soon as is practicable.
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Inflight emergencies have a common factor- they are all different. Every one. As a general rule: the military will call an emergency early and loudly (they have nothing to gain by keeping it quiet). Commercial ops tend to try and keep a lid on it, lest they be met by a barrage of reporters at the terminal.
If this thread is journo driven; you might try the 'low-fuel' angle. Personally, I believe this is the biggest safety issue in airline ops. Aircraft turning up at their destination on vapour, the crew trying to get down quickly without declaring an emergency (=paperwork, explanations, maybe journos). A totally avoidable situation, brought about by who? Managers under commercial pressure. The same ones who demand minimum fuel, then demand the explanation when it goes wrong. Simple profit versus safety.
Happens daily, and it's only a matter of time (before the next starvation accident).
Not much sensationalism in that, though, is there?
If this thread is journo driven; you might try the 'low-fuel' angle. Personally, I believe this is the biggest safety issue in airline ops. Aircraft turning up at their destination on vapour, the crew trying to get down quickly without declaring an emergency (=paperwork, explanations, maybe journos). A totally avoidable situation, brought about by who? Managers under commercial pressure. The same ones who demand minimum fuel, then demand the explanation when it goes wrong. Simple profit versus safety.
Happens daily, and it's only a matter of time (before the next starvation accident).
Not much sensationalism in that, though, is there?
