Be prepared immediate?
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Be prepared immediate?
As I understand it, being cleared immediate T/O when not yet lined up means line up and take off without delay. That's fine.
But what do you guys genuinely expect when we get the clearance "...behind landing 737 3 mile finals, line up be prepared immediate."
We can't do anything until the landing aircraft has cleared the rwy so what's required here?
Having sat there for 20 secs or so, we're hardly likely to wait another minute or so after receiving T/O clearance so why use the 'immediate' call?
Not having a dig by the way, just keen to know why it happens.
But what do you guys genuinely expect when we get the clearance "...behind landing 737 3 mile finals, line up be prepared immediate."
We can't do anything until the landing aircraft has cleared the rwy so what's required here?
Having sat there for 20 secs or so, we're hardly likely to wait another minute or so after receiving T/O clearance so why use the 'immediate' call?
Not having a dig by the way, just keen to know why it happens.
aceatco, retired
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It conveys the sense of urgency if it is going to be tight, you may roll immediately, not everyone does! 
And it gives you the opportunity to tell us if you are not going to be ready for an immediate, problem in the cabin, etc. 
Happy Christmas
And it gives you the opportunity to tell us if you are not going to be ready for an immediate, problem in the cabin, etc. Happy Christmas
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Yes, I agree, it means approach have probably stuffed them in fairly tightly; and if you don't want to wait until a second aircraft lands then it's ar#e into gear and be prepared to go the moment we say cleared for take off. It takes a little less time for you to depart when already lined up.
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<<Having sat there for 20 secs or so, we're hardly likely to wait another minute or so ......>>
You may not, sir... but others...........
Remember the old story from Chicago - blinding snow and a certain British aeroplane received a similar instruction. As the lander turned off the runway - seen by ATC and not the British chap - ATC said "*** cleared immediate take-off". Mr Bulldog said: "We'd prefer to wait just a minute or so until we can see the runway is clear". ATC replied: "*** just shift your ass"... whereupon he did just that!!
You may not, sir... but others...........
Remember the old story from Chicago - blinding snow and a certain British aeroplane received a similar instruction. As the lander turned off the runway - seen by ATC and not the British chap - ATC said "*** cleared immediate take-off". Mr Bulldog said: "We'd prefer to wait just a minute or so until we can see the runway is clear". ATC replied: "*** just shift your ass"... whereupon he did just that!!
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I take your points.
Personally I would never accept a line up clearance unless the pre-take off checks were complete - and that includes the cabin of course.
On the same issue, many take off clearances at LGW this week seem to have included reference to landing traffic ie: Clear Take off, landing traffic 3 miles. Same message with different words perhaps?
Seems like a bit of overkill to me. I can only move a 737 so fast.
Personally I would never accept a line up clearance unless the pre-take off checks were complete - and that includes the cabin of course.
On the same issue, many take off clearances at LGW this week seem to have included reference to landing traffic ie: Clear Take off, landing traffic 3 miles. Same message with different words perhaps?
Seems like a bit of overkill to me. I can only move a 737 so fast.
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Flaps One
Being Christmas day take what I have to say with not to much of a serious note. When I clear you for an immediate t/o, I give you the range of the landing traffic when within 4 miles from t/down, so that you are aware of the impending air display if you do not go . Therefore when given an immediate t/off make sure;
1 you are sitting comfortably
2your chamois or white gloves are on
3 you Raybans are clean and on
Whan cleared to go you go,
Being Christmas day take what I have to say with not to much of a serious note. When I clear you for an immediate t/o, I give you the range of the landing traffic when within 4 miles from t/down, so that you are aware of the impending air display if you do not go . Therefore when given an immediate t/off make sure;
1 you are sitting comfortably
2your chamois or white gloves are on
3 you Raybans are clean and on
Whan cleared to go you go,
aceatco, retired
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FlapsOne, it's the same, only different. Just conveys the urgency of the situation. OK, you get your A into gear and get going, not all do. But I'd rather know when the inbound is around 2nm rather coming over the hedge with the departure still half way down the runway!
[where's my sig??]
Just conveys the urgency of the situation. OK, you get your A into gear and get going, not all do. But I'd rather know when the inbound is around 2nm rather coming over the hedge with the departure still half way down the runway![where's my sig??]
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j17
I was born wearing clean raybans and the white gloves never come off!
Sitting comfortably in a 737 is a challenge (especially the NG).
Don't misunderstand me please guys. If I am lined up and cleared for take off, immediate take off, or take off- landing traffic at 3 miles, my actions are exactly the same - power on and go. It's impossible to do that any quicker.
The only difference to me would be if given line up and immediate take off whilst at the holding point. Then I can accelerate things a little.
If any guys do delay on the runway, for anything other than a problem/hazard of some kind, then they need to examine their own procedures perhaps.
Happy Christmas All.
I was born wearing clean raybans and the white gloves never come off!
Sitting comfortably in a 737 is a challenge (especially the NG).
Don't misunderstand me please guys. If I am lined up and cleared for take off, immediate take off, or take off- landing traffic at 3 miles, my actions are exactly the same - power on and go. It's impossible to do that any quicker.
The only difference to me would be if given line up and immediate take off whilst at the holding point. Then I can accelerate things a little.
If any guys do delay on the runway, for anything other than a problem/hazard of some kind, then they need to examine their own procedures perhaps.
Happy Christmas All.
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<<I was born wearing clean raybans and the white gloves never come off! >>
Ahh, a man after my own heart. But.. what I found REALLY pulled the birds was my Reliant Robin in which I used to drive to Heathrow...
Ahh, a man after my own heart. But.. what I found REALLY pulled the birds was my Reliant Robin in which I used to drive to Heathrow...
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What has worked for me (have received no complaints) is : "After landing 737 line up and power up on the breaks.."
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Quote:
What has worked for me (have received no complaints) is : "After landing 737 line up and power up on the breaks.."
Unquote.
Strange... the only thing I do on my breaks is power down with a cup of tea. I suppose you meant BRAKES!
But seriously, we all know how important it is not to lose your place in the queue at the holding point, so I am sure there have been occasions when you have taxied into position on the threshold as you are still finishing the final checks. If you do this, the last thing the Tower controller wants to hear when he clears you for takeoff with one at 2 miles is "We're not QUITE ready". Hence the pointer that you had better move those throttles smartly when cleared unless you want a close look at the underside of one going around above you.
The result of an aircraft slow to roll with an arrival over the hedge was rather frighteningly displayed at Heathrow a while back with a BA 747 and a Midland (then) 737
At least the instruction you question lets you know exactly what is expected of you.
What has worked for me (have received no complaints) is : "After landing 737 line up and power up on the breaks.."
Unquote.
Strange... the only thing I do on my breaks is power down with a cup of tea. I suppose you meant BRAKES!
But seriously, we all know how important it is not to lose your place in the queue at the holding point, so I am sure there have been occasions when you have taxied into position on the threshold as you are still finishing the final checks. If you do this, the last thing the Tower controller wants to hear when he clears you for takeoff with one at 2 miles is "We're not QUITE ready". Hence the pointer that you had better move those throttles smartly when cleared unless you want a close look at the underside of one going around above you.
The result of an aircraft slow to roll with an arrival over the hedge was rather frighteningly displayed at Heathrow a while back with a BA 747 and a Midland (then) 737
At least the instruction you question lets you know exactly what is expected of you.
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alan the point remains valid whether or not you score points for accuracy.I had a very similar situation with a Bac1-11 and a Boeing757(same company) 1-11 cleared for immediate lined up ....sat there and then needed another "minute for the cabin" .I learned a valuable lesson that day.
I ALWAYS check if they are ready immediate now...I hate paperwork!!!
I ALWAYS check if they are ready immediate now...I hate paperwork!!!
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AlanM, yes it was an A321, but what the heck.
Impi, not standard phraseology and as an LCE I would be on your case!! Interestingly enough a similar phrase was used in the incident referred to. Such an instruction should never be necessary and is a sign that you are playing it too tight. If the spacing is not sufficient then tell approach - the tower controller is the arbiter of the final approach spacing.
TRUCE for 2003 at Heathrow will concentrate on the problems associated with single runway operations, both in the classroom and the simulator. LCEs will be delivering a presentation covering all aspects of the subject over the next few weeks. Whatever FlapsOne thinks, we will be recommending the "be prepared immediate" phraseology. It adds urgency to the instruction and helps the pilots with situational awareness. Hopefully lessons will be learned and our service levels in single runway operations will improve. And before anyone from a busy single runway airport chips in, prolonged single runway operations at Heathrow is not a common event and neither the pilots nor controllers have enough practice of it to be really proficient. It is a non-standard occurrence and should be treated as such.
Impi, not standard phraseology and as an LCE I would be on your case!! Interestingly enough a similar phrase was used in the incident referred to. Such an instruction should never be necessary and is a sign that you are playing it too tight. If the spacing is not sufficient then tell approach - the tower controller is the arbiter of the final approach spacing.
TRUCE for 2003 at Heathrow will concentrate on the problems associated with single runway operations, both in the classroom and the simulator. LCEs will be delivering a presentation covering all aspects of the subject over the next few weeks. Whatever FlapsOne thinks, we will be recommending the "be prepared immediate" phraseology. It adds urgency to the instruction and helps the pilots with situational awareness. Hopefully lessons will be learned and our service levels in single runway operations will improve. And before anyone from a busy single runway airport chips in, prolonged single runway operations at Heathrow is not a common event and neither the pilots nor controllers have enough practice of it to be really proficient. It is a non-standard occurrence and should be treated as such.
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FlapsOne...
I think the major reason controllers use "be prepared immediate" is because nearly every controller has had their fingers burnt the time they haven't stressed the urgency of the situation.
I can understand your point of view that your reactions will be the same, and to me and you, it sounds good common sense.
But on the other hand, I would wager that if I am looking for a departure to be pretty smartish between arrivals, THEN the time i dont stress the urgency will be the time that the inbound FK100 within 4nms (dont know why, but they always seem to cop it) goes around.
thanks for your input.
BBB
I think the major reason controllers use "be prepared immediate" is because nearly every controller has had their fingers burnt the time they haven't stressed the urgency of the situation.
I can understand your point of view that your reactions will be the same, and to me and you, it sounds good common sense.
But on the other hand, I would wager that if I am looking for a departure to be pretty smartish between arrivals, THEN the time i dont stress the urgency will be the time that the inbound FK100 within 4nms (dont know why, but they always seem to cop it) goes around.
thanks for your input.
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Don't know how true this is but I heard a story of a controlle at an airport in the south of England instruct and a/c to:
"Commence high speed taxy along the runway, take of clearance shortly"
"Commence high speed taxy along the runway, take of clearance shortly"
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The reason for the 'be prepared immediate' and 'landing traffic 3 miles, cleared for take off..' is to increase the situational awareness of the crews.
And it's not just been in use at LGW this week; I've been using it since I arrived from LHR 4 years ago, and the training section teach it as standard.
It's succinct, accurate and it works.
Fantastic
And it's not just been in use at LGW this week; I've been using it since I arrived from LHR 4 years ago, and the training section teach it as standard.
It's succinct, accurate and it works.
Fantastic