More NERC Bashing
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More NERC Bashing
Starting up again, but the BBC this time instead of Computer Weekly. Wonder where they managed to find that 'highly experienced controller with over 40 years of experience!' Must have been licensed at 15 years old (although you cannot legally hold a licence until 18 and must retire at 55!).
Ho hum!
Ho hum!
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Hmmm.... Here is the link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2589247.stm
Wildly inaccurate? No, not really. Looks like the journo has written most of what he was told, without understanding too much about what he was writing. Oh, and most of it is TRUE.
2lo4zero...
Compulsory retirement at 55? No, not true, but a wish for many, including me.
As far as I recall you can hold an ATCO licence from 18, but no RADAR rating until you are 21. Not sure if this is still the case though.
Rgds BEX
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2589247.stm
Wildly inaccurate? No, not really. Looks like the journo has written most of what he was told, without understanding too much about what he was writing. Oh, and most of it is TRUE.
2lo4zero...
Compulsory retirement at 55? No, not true, but a wish for many, including me.
As far as I recall you can hold an ATCO licence from 18, but no RADAR rating until you are 21. Not sure if this is still the case though.
Rgds BEX
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Humpty ho,ho,ho,4 zero,I have posted on Reporting Points anwering your 'expert' comments on retirement,have a read and learn,you're living proof that the 'lions den' has no time for ill informed comments.
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What is amusing? ATC Expert is the official job title but actually refers to systems expert. The real experts are, of course, the ATCO's 
So I was wrong and I've put my hands up to it 'guv. Does that call for ridicule?
So I was wrong and I've put my hands up to it 'guv. Does that call for ridicule?
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2lo4zero...
It may well be a single persons subjective viewpoint as told to a journo but
1)It is just as credible as your implied assertion that all is fine and dandy at Swanwick
&
2) You will find that the majority of the operational Controllers and Assistants AGREE with the comments.
Go on, go into the ops room and ASK them!
Rgds BEX
It may well be a single persons subjective viewpoint as told to a journo but
1)It is just as credible as your implied assertion that all is fine and dandy at Swanwick
&
2) You will find that the majority of the operational Controllers and Assistants AGREE with the comments.
Go on, go into the ops room and ASK them!
Rgds BEX
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In support of 2lo4 zero (and to prevent a Victor Meldrew like spat between he and HD) he may well be an ATC expert and justifiably so. What he has demonstrated is that he is definately not an ATCO expert! It would take a very special sort of person to be one of those, may I suggest a cross between Clair Rayner, Dr Raj Persaud, Lucie Mabel Attwell and Keith from the Prodigy!
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I just do not believe the assertion that I'm Victor Meldrew like!! 
Bex:
I do not assert that everything in the garden is rosy at Swanwick but public bickering in the media is really not helpful. There are processes available to air concerns of which ATC Operational Observations and 1261 action are two. If the majority of ATCO's & ATSA's agree with those comments then they need to start filling in the paperwork so that management are made aware. As has been said to you before, months ago in this forum, people muttering in groups isn't enough to make managements ears prick up.
I do go into the Ops room and I do listen but I am not senior enough to make things happen by myself. Hopefully we are introducing yet another procedure (sigh) where we can directly interface (love that word! ) with the operational staff about various things. But the forum for it hasn't been decided upon yet. Workshops? E-mail? EBS feedback? Various individuals wandering into the OPs room to chat to operational staff? All have their pro's & con's so we are waiting to hear how we'll do it.
Bex:
I do not assert that everything in the garden is rosy at Swanwick but public bickering in the media is really not helpful. There are processes available to air concerns of which ATC Operational Observations and 1261 action are two. If the majority of ATCO's & ATSA's agree with those comments then they need to start filling in the paperwork so that management are made aware. As has been said to you before, months ago in this forum, people muttering in groups isn't enough to make managements ears prick up.
I do go into the Ops room and I do listen but I am not senior enough to make things happen by myself. Hopefully we are introducing yet another procedure (sigh) where we can directly interface (love that word!
) with the operational staff about various things. But the forum for it hasn't been decided upon yet. Workshops? E-mail? EBS feedback? Various individuals wandering into the OPs room to chat to operational staff? All have their pro's & con's so we are waiting to hear how we'll do it.
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Rumour has it that there will be a NATS staff wide survey conducted in the very near future. All staff will be asked to contribute and the whole thing will be run by MORI.
Sounds like a self destruct button for PPP to me!
Sounds like a self destruct button for PPP to me!
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2lo4zero. I don't wish to be involved in a "spat" but I would like to know what your qualifications are. Do you hold a valid Air Traffic Controller's Licence? Have you worked busy ATC positions at NERC or West Drayton? If you are a telecomms engineer, or similar, I hold you in high regard but do not think the term "ATC Expert" should be used unless you are at least a qualified ATCO otherwise the media will start listening to you!!
All my personal opinions.. and probably worth nowt!
All my personal opinions.. and probably worth nowt!
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HD
Aaarrrgghhh! Don't want the media listening thank you!
Probably in the terminal environment you never had cause to meet people like me, we are generally at the area control centres. I did consider droning on at length about what I do, but that gave a big risk of boring to death some of the other readers (if not your good self!). So what folows is the recent Vacancy Notice for a job here at the LACC:
Job Title : ATC Experts (2 posts)
Business Division : GM Swanwick/DACS
Department Unit : ATC Operations, LACC
Grade : MSG 3 (National)
Reporting To : Head ATC Procedures
Location : LACC
Closing Date : Friday 10 th January 2003
Job Scope
An opportunity has arisen for two MSG 3 grades to work in the ATC Operations department
supporting day to day activities as well as assisting with long term sector development.
The main accountabilities of the role are set out below.
Principal Accountabilities
1. To respond to and deal with real-time operational problems referred by aircraft operators,
ATC operational staff and other ATC units.
2. To assist in the specification and running of real-time and fast-time simulation activities at
NATS Hurn as part of the LACC sector development programme.
3. To liaise effectively with LACC staff, TC Operations, adaptation and design staff at
Swanwick, CAA DAP, military ATC authorities, aircraft operators and other ATC units, both in
the UK and abroad, on matters affecting LACC sector procedures, operations, airspace, and
facilities.
4. To provide advice to all heads of the section in the ATC Operations department on the
ATC operational implications of any changes, temporary or permanent, to operational
procedures, systems, information and traffic flows.
5. To help with operational staff consultation and communication on all elements of proposed
changes.
6. To assist with the preparation of Supplementary Instructions, Temporary Operating
Instructions, Operational Notices, Information Notices and MATS Pt 2 amendments in
response to changing operational requirements.
Experience, Qualifications & Skills
Applications are invited from suitably experienced staff, however it is desirable that applicants
will have a sound knowledge of ATC operations preferably gained, in part, through
operational experience.
Personal Qualities
The applicant must have good interpersonal and written communication skills, and in addition:
1. Be able to present complex material clearly and concisely; produce accurate and
unambiguous documentation, to meet deadlines in accordance with unit procedures.
2. Be able to deal with sensitive issues in a confidential manner and work effectively with staff
and management, both within NATS and with external bodies.
3. Be able to deal with work flexibly meeting changing time-scales to support ATC Operations
activities.
This is not my job description 'cause I'm more on the techie side. There are a lot of different jobs under the ATC Expert umbrella, similar to the ATCO umbrella! But basically the ATCO's operate the kit and move traffic, the support tail tries to give you the best support to do that.
Any more questions please send me a personal message.
Probably in the terminal environment you never had cause to meet people like me, we are generally at the area control centres. I did consider droning on at length about what I do, but that gave a big risk of boring to death some of the other readers (if not your good self!). So what folows is the recent Vacancy Notice for a job here at the LACC:
Job Title : ATC Experts (2 posts)
Business Division : GM Swanwick/DACS
Department Unit : ATC Operations, LACC
Grade : MSG 3 (National)
Reporting To : Head ATC Procedures
Location : LACC
Closing Date : Friday 10 th January 2003
Job Scope
An opportunity has arisen for two MSG 3 grades to work in the ATC Operations department
supporting day to day activities as well as assisting with long term sector development.
The main accountabilities of the role are set out below.
Principal Accountabilities
1. To respond to and deal with real-time operational problems referred by aircraft operators,
ATC operational staff and other ATC units.
2. To assist in the specification and running of real-time and fast-time simulation activities at
NATS Hurn as part of the LACC sector development programme.
3. To liaise effectively with LACC staff, TC Operations, adaptation and design staff at
Swanwick, CAA DAP, military ATC authorities, aircraft operators and other ATC units, both in
the UK and abroad, on matters affecting LACC sector procedures, operations, airspace, and
facilities.
4. To provide advice to all heads of the section in the ATC Operations department on the
ATC operational implications of any changes, temporary or permanent, to operational
procedures, systems, information and traffic flows.
5. To help with operational staff consultation and communication on all elements of proposed
changes.
6. To assist with the preparation of Supplementary Instructions, Temporary Operating
Instructions, Operational Notices, Information Notices and MATS Pt 2 amendments in
response to changing operational requirements.
Experience, Qualifications & Skills
Applications are invited from suitably experienced staff, however it is desirable that applicants
will have a sound knowledge of ATC operations preferably gained, in part, through
operational experience.
Personal Qualities
The applicant must have good interpersonal and written communication skills, and in addition:
1. Be able to present complex material clearly and concisely; produce accurate and
unambiguous documentation, to meet deadlines in accordance with unit procedures.
2. Be able to deal with sensitive issues in a confidential manner and work effectively with staff
and management, both within NATS and with external bodies.
3. Be able to deal with work flexibly meeting changing time-scales to support ATC Operations
activities.
This is not my job description 'cause I'm more on the techie side. There are a lot of different jobs under the ATC Expert umbrella, similar to the ATCO umbrella! But basically the ATCO's operate the kit and move traffic, the support tail tries to give you the best support to do that.
Any more questions please send me a personal message.
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HD et al
The title 'ATC Expert' is one dreamt up by Personnel, or Human Resorces as they like to call THEMselves these days. Having been involved with HR Direct (as WE call them) you can take this a gospel as I spat feathers when I found out what they had done.
On the 'expert' subject, that job title is used throughout Eurocontrol (need I say more?) for various ATC-ish positions. One such 'expert' (who was ex-BA) said that the term was ".....something I never describe myself as, like ****hole!"
Here! Here!
Rudolph
The title 'ATC Expert' is one dreamt up by Personnel, or Human Resorces as they like to call THEMselves these days. Having been involved with HR Direct (as WE call them) you can take this a gospel as I spat feathers when I found out what they had done.
On the 'expert' subject, that job title is used throughout Eurocontrol (need I say more?) for various ATC-ish positions. One such 'expert' (who was ex-BA) said that the term was ".....something I never describe myself as, like ****hole!"
Here! Here!
Rudolph
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Rudolf, you are quite correct in your analysis of the term ATC expert, it has absolutely nothing to do with ATC operations but, over there, more to do with technical staff who REALLY believe that they know all about ATC when in reality they know less than s@d all. There are very few out there who could, or should, rightfully use that title and it should be treated as the properly qualified engineers treat technicians who call themselves engineers. Personnel or HR are people who do that job because nobody would employ them doing a proper job. Sorry, but I have put up with know alls for more than twenty years and their nasal insertion factor is extremely high. However I do recognise the real engineers in our area who do a real job in supporting the operations to the, very considerable, best of their abilities in difficult circumstances, recognition of our partners expertise gives a team some spirit.
Pegase Driver
In the past the term ATC expert in Eurocontrol was reserved to management positions , but to apply for one of those you must have had an ATC licence ( althought it could have been at the time most of us were in nursery school ).
But for a Tecnical engineer to hold such a title would definitively raise mainy eyebrows , even in Eurocontrol...
ATS expert possibly, but not ATC....
Anyway 2lo4-0, you have the guts to be here and defend your position, even it it is is loosing one, so you are almost like a controller ....
But for a Tecnical engineer to hold such a title would definitively raise mainy eyebrows , even in Eurocontrol...
ATS expert possibly, but not ATC....
Anyway 2lo4-0, you have the guts to be here and defend your position, even it it is is loosing one, so you are almost like a controller ....
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Maybe a point to note / debate.
ATC is a multi disciplined 'team' sort of thing that requires people from many backgrounds. You do not need to be an ATCO to be an expert in anything but the final delivery of an ATC service, tip of the iceberg stuff.
ATC 'systems' is a big thing and can cover computers to FDP systems. In the case of FDP systems, to 'The system' - Hardware, software, people & procedures.
Its ok for ATCO's to tell other experts what they want it to do but we will roll around laughing if you try to tell us how it should do it.
Not ATCO's but experts never the less!
ATC is a multi disciplined 'team' sort of thing that requires people from many backgrounds. You do not need to be an ATCO to be an expert in anything but the final delivery of an ATC service, tip of the iceberg stuff.
ATC 'systems' is a big thing and can cover computers to FDP systems. In the case of FDP systems, to 'The system' - Hardware, software, people & procedures.
Its ok for ATCO's to tell other experts what they want it to do but we will roll around laughing if you try to tell us how it should do it.
Not ATCO's but experts never the less!
All this bickering over job descriptions and titles does nothing to detract from the fact that yet another part of the NERC environment is officially CRAP. Well done to the BBC for getting that FACT to a wider audience. Surely the UK taxpayer has a right to know the truth, as he/she will almost certainly be bailing NATS out yet again before long, but meanwhile there will probably be another "mole hunt" to give management something to do other than address the issue.