NATCA fighting privitization in US
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Adrift upon the tides of fate
Posts: 1,840
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scott, how do you collect revenue (from GA) at the moment? You imply that you are moving to a user pays system- paying per approach or ILS or whatever. You believe this will result in a reduction of use of services. So how does GA pay now?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Geneva
Age: 51
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
to clarify
Some great posts!!
Just to clarify a few things..
About the 10% i mentioned, I was not saying fees would add 10% to the ticket price, what I was reffering to was a possible 10% decrease in GA usage. This number I will reseach with some friends who still work at Nav Canada to see the actual if any drop in GA since user fees came in effect. The actual fee added to a passenger ticket is minimal.
US airlines compete with cars, Europe competes with trains.
Yes you are right, alot of airlines train their pilots in the states and would keep on doing so even if there was user fees. Yes you are also right, flying in Europe is expensive, if you think it's only because of fees think again. EVERYTHING is alot more expensive in Europe, my apt costs 2000 USD per month, a kid a McDonalds makes 12 USD per hour, dinner for 2 at an average restaurant cost 60 USD.. need I give more examples.. just the scale of the economy, this has everything to do with the fact that an hour of flight time is 2 to 2 1/2 times more expensive than in North America. You talk about the road to the right seat being different here than in North America, you are right, but there is something very wrong when guys are willing to fly for free to build hours on regional airlines. Maybe there are just too many pilots in the US. This was happening even pre sept 11th. Time to change the system? Would maybe stabilize the profession a little?
I am not questioning or asking about the traffic loads in Canada or the US, I know there is a ton of traffic in the US, more than anywhere else in the world. In Toronto, we used to average 100,000 movements per month, but I was not reffereing to that, the number I want to know is the decrease in percentage of GA flying since user fees were implemented.
About scud running pilots, WOW that is all I can say, maybe there should be inspectors to yank these licenses away.
Just to clarify a few things..
About the 10% i mentioned, I was not saying fees would add 10% to the ticket price, what I was reffering to was a possible 10% decrease in GA usage. This number I will reseach with some friends who still work at Nav Canada to see the actual if any drop in GA since user fees came in effect. The actual fee added to a passenger ticket is minimal.
US airlines compete with cars, Europe competes with trains.
Yes you are right, alot of airlines train their pilots in the states and would keep on doing so even if there was user fees. Yes you are also right, flying in Europe is expensive, if you think it's only because of fees think again. EVERYTHING is alot more expensive in Europe, my apt costs 2000 USD per month, a kid a McDonalds makes 12 USD per hour, dinner for 2 at an average restaurant cost 60 USD.. need I give more examples.. just the scale of the economy, this has everything to do with the fact that an hour of flight time is 2 to 2 1/2 times more expensive than in North America. You talk about the road to the right seat being different here than in North America, you are right, but there is something very wrong when guys are willing to fly for free to build hours on regional airlines. Maybe there are just too many pilots in the US. This was happening even pre sept 11th. Time to change the system? Would maybe stabilize the profession a little?
I am not questioning or asking about the traffic loads in Canada or the US, I know there is a ton of traffic in the US, more than anywhere else in the world. In Toronto, we used to average 100,000 movements per month, but I was not reffereing to that, the number I want to know is the decrease in percentage of GA flying since user fees were implemented.
About scud running pilots, WOW that is all I can say, maybe there should be inspectors to yank these licenses away.
Pegase Driver
Roger out : you were against privatisation in the UK? I do seem to remember a loat of moaning against SERCO but everyone seemed happy to go to bed with the airlines group , or did I miss something ?
As to the bloody Europeans ( the French for instance ) , they are the only one at the moment having strikes against their privatisation, and they seem succesful so far. ( time will tell however )
I do not seem to recall any form of industrial action in the UK against NATS privatisation at the time.
Nothing is free anymore I am afraid...
As to the bloody Europeans ( the French for instance ) , they are the only one at the moment having strikes against their privatisation, and they seem succesful so far. ( time will tell however )
I do not seem to recall any form of industrial action in the UK against NATS privatisation at the time.
Nothing is free anymore I am afraid...
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ferris;
In the US General Aviation pays a tax on aviation fuel. This covers everything from ATC, to aviation weather to Flight Service and NOTAMs. It also helps pays for the airport grants that the FAA gives out to help improve airports and such...
regards
In the US General Aviation pays a tax on aviation fuel. This covers everything from ATC, to aviation weather to Flight Service and NOTAMs. It also helps pays for the airport grants that the FAA gives out to help improve airports and such...
regards
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Roger Out ... many of us really wished to take some form of industrial action in the UK prior to privatisation. Unfortunately it would have been against the UK Trade Union laws, so a non- starter.
A great pity, as I believe that with some form of action the media and the public would have taken note of, the government would have had enough serious doubts to end the proposed PPP (regardless of Gordon Browns spending / income plans).
As it was the PPP in the UK was forced through by a Government with a very large, and unassailable majority, regardless of the debates held in both the Lords and the Commons.
The result? A complete disaster.
Rgds BEX
A great pity, as I believe that with some form of action the media and the public would have taken note of, the government would have had enough serious doubts to end the proposed PPP (regardless of Gordon Browns spending / income plans).
As it was the PPP in the UK was forced through by a Government with a very large, and unassailable majority, regardless of the debates held in both the Lords and the Commons.
The result? A complete disaster.
Rgds BEX
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Bruxelles
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Roger out:
"many of us really wished to take some form of industrial action in the UK prior to privatisation. Unfortunately it would have been against the UK Trade Union laws, so a non- starter"
Checco: Industrial relationship are very different between UK and Continental Europe. This could explain why your laws did not allow to go on strike against privatisation. See the below link:
http://www.eiro.eurofound.ie/2001/11...N0111148F.html
ATC in France:
The ATC in France seems under scrutiny as the report of the "Cour des Comptes" would show. You can download it at :
http://www.ccomptes.fr/
The title of the report is:
LE CONTRÔLE DE LA NAVIGATION AÉRIENNE
_______
RAPPORT AU PRÉSIDENT DE LA RÉPUBLIQUE
SUIVI DES RÉPONSES DES ADMINISTRATIONS
INTÉRESSÉES
---------
NOVEMBRE 2002
"many of us really wished to take some form of industrial action in the UK prior to privatisation. Unfortunately it would have been against the UK Trade Union laws, so a non- starter"
Checco: Industrial relationship are very different between UK and Continental Europe. This could explain why your laws did not allow to go on strike against privatisation. See the below link:
http://www.eiro.eurofound.ie/2001/11...N0111148F.html
ATC in France:
The ATC in France seems under scrutiny as the report of the "Cour des Comptes" would show. You can download it at :
http://www.ccomptes.fr/
The title of the report is:
LE CONTRÔLE DE LA NAVIGATION AÉRIENNE
_______
RAPPORT AU PRÉSIDENT DE LA RÉPUBLIQUE
SUIVI DES RÉPONSES DES ADMINISTRATIONS
INTÉRESSÉES
---------
NOVEMBRE 2002
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ferris: Revenue is collected from GA in a number of ways: The federales collect a tax on aviation fuel and on parts and appliances (any aircraft spare parts, new radios, tires, and other aircraft peculiar stuff etc) as well as a tax on airline tickets and freight waybills that gets money from airline passengers and freignt shippers. Airports are also allowed to collect money from GA in the form of landing fees and this is on a case by case basis. Most small airports don't bother or don't bother if you buy gas their or RON. Some big airports that have landing fees don't bother if you are a transient one time only light GA aircraft.
As far as inspectors to catch scud runners sounds like a typical European solution. Actually a European named Darwin figured out how to stop this without any significant new expenditure of resources for inspectors and various other nannys to babysit everyone. You scud run long enough you will kill yourself. Then you won't scud run anymore. Simple. But do it befoer you have kids and it will improve the gene pool too.
As far as inspectors to catch scud runners sounds like a typical European solution. Actually a European named Darwin figured out how to stop this without any significant new expenditure of resources for inspectors and various other nannys to babysit everyone. You scud run long enough you will kill yourself. Then you won't scud run anymore. Simple. But do it befoer you have kids and it will improve the gene pool too.
