Radio Failure on the airways
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Radio Failure on the airways
A question re procedures on the airway if you are devoid of contact with the outside world! 
Senario 1 : Established on the airway and you (unlikely, I know) suffer a total radio failure. You squark "radio failure" and continue on toward your final approach fix. Your flight plan has you at F340 with a climb F360 over point BLOGS.
As ATC folk would you expect me to climb F360 at BLOGS?
Senario 2: same flight and flightplan but because I am much lighter, I have prior to the RT failure, asked for and been cleared to F380. Do you expect me to descend F360 at BLOGS?
Just wondering?
T-bug
Senario 1 : Established on the airway and you (unlikely, I know) suffer a total radio failure. You squark "radio failure" and continue on toward your final approach fix. Your flight plan has you at F340 with a climb F360 over point BLOGS.
As ATC folk would you expect me to climb F360 at BLOGS?
Senario 2: same flight and flightplan but because I am much lighter, I have prior to the RT failure, asked for and been cleared to F380. Do you expect me to descend F360 at BLOGS?
Just wondering?
T-bug
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I'll avoid trying to answer your specific questions because I don't do airways and it 's probably best to leave it to an area bod. But the UK radio comms failure procedures have recently changed quite significantly.
Although the begining of this document is aimed at ATC it does include the revised radio fail procedures in an appendix - para 3.2.4 is the all important bit. Just a warning - it's a long download, about 1.5 meg.
Although the begining of this document is aimed at ATC it does include the revised radio fail procedures in an appendix - para 3.2.4 is the all important bit. Just a warning - it's a long download, about 1.5 meg.
Try the General Flight Procedures in the AIP for a definitive reference.
The instruction there is merely to "adjust the speed and level in accordance with current flight plan" so I think the question is not necessarily answered unambiguously. My interpretation would be, in Scenario 1, yes, you should climb. In Scenario 2, it's less clear if a descent is appropriate until the next planned change of level.
The instruction there is merely to "adjust the speed and level in accordance with current flight plan" so I think the question is not necessarily answered unambiguously. My interpretation would be, in Scenario 1, yes, you should climb. In Scenario 2, it's less clear if a descent is appropriate until the next planned change of level.
Radio Failure procedures are always an interesting topic for discussion when all else fails because, despite all the written rules, the possible scenarios are almost infinite.
My personal interpretation of your specific questions are -
1. continue at FL340 and climb to FL360 when you reach the point at which you flight-planned to climb
2. I would interpret your early climb to an unplanned FL380 as amending your flight plan, so I would expect you to continue at that level
However, in all real cases of radio failure most controllers will anticipate any of the above options (and a wide selection of others), basically keeping everybody else well out of your way!!!
Remember to transpond the appropriate code so that we know that you know you're out of contact - not just day-dreaming up there!!!
Finally, in this day and age, especially over France, keep a sharp look out for a Mirage in close proximity shortly after you lose contact with ATC.
My personal interpretation of your specific questions are -
1. continue at FL340 and climb to FL360 when you reach the point at which you flight-planned to climb
2. I would interpret your early climb to an unplanned FL380 as amending your flight plan, so I would expect you to continue at that level
However, in all real cases of radio failure most controllers will anticipate any of the above options (and a wide selection of others), basically keeping everybody else well out of your way!!!
Remember to transpond the appropriate code so that we know that you know you're out of contact - not just day-dreaming up there!!!
Finally, in this day and age, especially over France, keep a sharp look out for a Mirage in close proximity shortly after you lose contact with ATC.
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T-Bug
An Interesting question.
Ask 10 ATCO's, bet you get 10 answers!
Does raise an interesting point though - We have been told that it is the responsibility of the first LACC controller to ascertain any RFL change that may be requested. What amazes is the number of aircrews who request a totally different level to that which is "requested" on our copy of the flight plan.
How many of these are caused by
a) the Bulk Store File, or
b) a mis-read by FPRS?
As an example, a recent low-cost carrier to the Irish republic was asked his RFL. His reply "Let me have a look. . . . we are flight planned at FL360".
The paper strip in front of me clearly stated RFL 280!
Let's just hope that one of these doesn't do what you suggest.
An Interesting question.
Ask 10 ATCO's, bet you get 10 answers!
Does raise an interesting point though - We have been told that it is the responsibility of the first LACC controller to ascertain any RFL change that may be requested. What amazes is the number of aircrews who request a totally different level to that which is "requested" on our copy of the flight plan.
How many of these are caused by
a) the Bulk Store File, or
b) a mis-read by FPRS?
As an example, a recent low-cost carrier to the Irish republic was asked his RFL. His reply "Let me have a look. . . . we are flight planned at FL360".
The paper strip in front of me clearly stated RFL 280!
Let's just hope that one of these doesn't do what you suggest.
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Have to agree with Numpo-Nigit
These days I can't imagine anywhere that being out of comms for more than about 15 mins wouldn't get you an 'escort'.
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We suffer greatly with the RPL vs Actual CFP FL.
The RPL levels are generated using zero wind component ( 'still air' ) and full weight. These are stored in the CFMU database.
When the actual CFPs are produced, and the real live weather added, plus actual weights, the difference in filed level ( RPL ) and level requested by crew ( performance level ) can be dramatic.
Of more relevance to the topic, the crews on an RPL flight would have no idea of the RPL level - only what their CFP ( computer flight plan ) says !
And just to add more confusion for ATC and themselves ... we often have to live file several sectors for various operational reasons ( ie swaps between different fleets etc ) so one day a flight would be on an RPL ( and 'iffy' filed FL ) and others an accurate live file !
The answer logically would be live file them all. But with 300 odd flights a day ?!
The RPL levels are generated using zero wind component ( 'still air' ) and full weight. These are stored in the CFMU database.
When the actual CFPs are produced, and the real live weather added, plus actual weights, the difference in filed level ( RPL ) and level requested by crew ( performance level ) can be dramatic.
Of more relevance to the topic, the crews on an RPL flight would have no idea of the RPL level - only what their CFP ( computer flight plan ) says !
And just to add more confusion for ATC and themselves ... we often have to live file several sectors for various operational reasons ( ie swaps between different fleets etc ) so one day a flight would be on an RPL ( and 'iffy' filed FL ) and others an accurate live file !
The answer logically would be live file them all. But with 300 odd flights a day ?!
Thunderbug
As stated above, the procedures, in the UK and much of the rest of Europe, changed earlier this year.
You would yhink, wouldn't you, that all AOs and ATC units would be well and truly briefed.
It's all in the AIP ENR Section - and is far more sensible and readable than before. All perfectly logical - except the anomaly indicated in previous posts that the pilot should know what the FPL cruising level(s) are, and they should be practical. If, in a RPL, they are not, I think this problem should be pointed out to CAA.
As stated above, the procedures, in the UK and much of the rest of Europe, changed earlier this year.
You would yhink, wouldn't you, that all AOs and ATC units would be well and truly briefed.
It's all in the AIP ENR Section - and is far more sensible and readable than before. All perfectly logical - except the anomaly indicated in previous posts that the pilot should know what the FPL cruising level(s) are, and they should be practical. If, in a RPL, they are not, I think this problem should be pointed out to CAA.
