What happened to the "Clacton" sector this evening
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What happened to the "Clacton" sector this evening
Can anyone at LATCC or Hamble Marina(sorry! -Swanwick)
explain to a customer why the Clacton sector was closed this evening?
How am I supposed to explain to the SLF why their flight from Scananavia to London is giving them such a nice view of Grimsby Manchester and Birmingham, is this what real long haul pilots call a Great Circle it is certainly a R(h)um lime and looks more like a Bermuda Triangle!!
I wish you guys gave Airmiles
explain to a customer why the Clacton sector was closed this evening?
How am I supposed to explain to the SLF why their flight from Scananavia to London is giving them such a nice view of Grimsby Manchester and Birmingham, is this what real long haul pilots call a Great Circle it is certainly a R(h)um lime and looks more like a Bermuda Triangle!!
I wish you guys gave Airmiles
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Well staff sickness it says on the CFMU web page... one presumes that for it to be closed then 2 out of the three ATCOs required to operate it at night (two working, one on a break) must have phoned in sick... leaving NATS to explain to the airlines that they dont have a policy (or the staff) for providing cover for sickness on nightshifts! It will be interesting to see where the early far east traffic goes to get into London!
More than just an ATCO
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Zed 3 wrote:
Maastricht knew at lunchtime yesterday that Clacton sector would be closed for the night due to lack of staff!!!
Happens almost every time, about 12 hours notice.
Wasn't N. Sea/Daventry closed just after an international football game in Scotland?
Looks like the maximum em******ance factor is being employed
Maastricht knew at lunchtime yesterday that Clacton sector would be closed for the night due to lack of staff!!!
Happens almost every time, about 12 hours notice.
Wasn't N. Sea/Daventry closed just after an international football game in Scotland?
Looks like the maximum em******ance factor is being employed
Time merchant
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We were told at 1215 UTC yesterday about the Clacton closure. The information was distributed to all at that time.
We were advised at 1240 today that Clacton will be closed again tonight from 2030-0600.
Not much fun for anyone involved.
flowman
We were advised at 1240 today that Clacton will be closed again tonight from 2030-0600.
Not much fun for anyone involved.
flowman
Blame the idiots that opened the new centre with KNOWN STAFFING DEFICIENCIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let me give you a clue........
IDIOTS = NATS Management
To quote from a colleage from whom I have just received an email concerning this matter :
The service delivery caused by our “management” ineptitude is a complete disgrace…….I almost feel compelled to apologise to the pilots.
The situation really is a shambles of the highest order.
Let me give you a clue........
IDIOTS = NATS Management
To quote from a colleage from whom I have just received an email concerning this matter :
The service delivery caused by our “management” ineptitude is a complete disgrace…….I almost feel compelled to apologise to the pilots.
The situation really is a shambles of the highest order.
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BPK.....
What my colleagues have said above is essentially TRUE.
You asked what you should tell your pax? Well, the truth would be good. Note that you will not get this from NATS management.
Anyway, for your, and others edification here is The Truth:
Impending Staff shortages were KNOWN about several YEARS AGO. Little or nothing constructive was done. Indeed the NATS management of the time (mostly still "in situ" today!!)
denied there was any problem at all . Worse, they claimed LATCC AC (as was) had 60 controllers too many and Swanwick could easily be staffed.
It should be noted that Swanwick is far more labour intensive than LATCC AC was . Simply put, it requires a lot MORE people to run it. This is progress, apparently.
Anyway we finally get to "open" Swanwick earlier this year, and it finally dawns on NATS management that the operational staff, their Unions and GATCO, were all correct about the staff numbers required. And they were wrong.
They remain in denial. The tragic events of Sept 11 provide a convenient smokescreen.
Delays build. Airline customers desperately (and not surprisingly) unhappy. Richard "Kenny" Everitt admits that delays are at "totally unacceptable levels", without admitting that it was his inherited mangement team that are responsible for the mess. ]
He insists that robust measures are being put in place to "bring delays down". And these are? Dragging instructors out of the SVC (Simulator training) to staff the ops room. Getting a deal (finally) with the unions that will allow limited overtime (not that there will be many takers, and certainly not enough to make much difference).
There is a small anouncement that Swanwick is short of 41 controllers. Huh? A year ago we had 60 too many. You'd be right to ask Kenny "what the f*** is going on?"
Meanwhile..... The operational controllers that are left have to deal with a complex, new ATC system which has many difficiencies (e.g. Font sizes, refresh rates, poor ergonomics, poor RTF, Crap headsets etc etc)... and the usual busy summer traffic. And they still manage to do a damn fine job, despite all this.
There is absolutely no slack in the system, staff number wise. Many controllers have been unable to take all their annual leave due (1) OCT last year (2) Staff shortages at LACC.
There have been other issues affecting the operational staff at Swanwick. Morale is low. The end result is simple. FATIGUE . Sickness rates go up. Not rocket science is it?
So what's to be done? Simple. TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN. It is the ONLY way out. If this means restricting service delivery so that the operational watches can provide instructors, SO BE IT. If NATS keeps doing what it's doing now, the whole ops room will be closing sectors on a much, much more regular basis.
There you go. No ranting, no raving, just an honest statement. Something you will not get from the current NATS management. Why? I have no idea. "Kenny" promised us (and the customer) he'd be open and honest. Pity he hasn't lived up to his promises.
Rgds BEX
What my colleagues have said above is essentially TRUE.
You asked what you should tell your pax? Well, the truth would be good. Note that you will not get this from NATS management.
Anyway, for your, and others edification here is The Truth:
Impending Staff shortages were KNOWN about several YEARS AGO. Little or nothing constructive was done. Indeed the NATS management of the time (mostly still "in situ" today!!)
denied there was any problem at all . Worse, they claimed LATCC AC (as was) had 60 controllers too many and Swanwick could easily be staffed.
It should be noted that Swanwick is far more labour intensive than LATCC AC was . Simply put, it requires a lot MORE people to run it. This is progress, apparently.
Anyway we finally get to "open" Swanwick earlier this year, and it finally dawns on NATS management that the operational staff, their Unions and GATCO, were all correct about the staff numbers required. And they were wrong.
They remain in denial. The tragic events of Sept 11 provide a convenient smokescreen.
Delays build. Airline customers desperately (and not surprisingly) unhappy. Richard "Kenny" Everitt admits that delays are at "totally unacceptable levels", without admitting that it was his inherited mangement team that are responsible for the mess. ]
He insists that robust measures are being put in place to "bring delays down". And these are? Dragging instructors out of the SVC (Simulator training) to staff the ops room. Getting a deal (finally) with the unions that will allow limited overtime (not that there will be many takers, and certainly not enough to make much difference).
There is a small anouncement that Swanwick is short of 41 controllers. Huh? A year ago we had 60 too many. You'd be right to ask Kenny "what the f*** is going on?"
Meanwhile..... The operational controllers that are left have to deal with a complex, new ATC system which has many difficiencies (e.g. Font sizes, refresh rates, poor ergonomics, poor RTF, Crap headsets etc etc)... and the usual busy summer traffic. And they still manage to do a damn fine job, despite all this.
There is absolutely no slack in the system, staff number wise. Many controllers have been unable to take all their annual leave due (1) OCT last year (2) Staff shortages at LACC.
There have been other issues affecting the operational staff at Swanwick. Morale is low. The end result is simple. FATIGUE . Sickness rates go up. Not rocket science is it?
So what's to be done? Simple. TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN. It is the ONLY way out. If this means restricting service delivery so that the operational watches can provide instructors, SO BE IT. If NATS keeps doing what it's doing now, the whole ops room will be closing sectors on a much, much more regular basis.
There you go. No ranting, no raving, just an honest statement. Something you will not get from the current NATS management. Why? I have no idea. "Kenny" promised us (and the customer) he'd be open and honest. Pity he hasn't lived up to his promises.
Rgds BEX
So, Dear Brookmans Park (and other pilots who are taking time to read this thread)......having read what Bex, airvent and others have said, the burning question is :
Why are those "managers" responsible for this MESS still in-situ ??
And, I am sorry to say, there are also some new "managers" who are simply satisfied to continue this farce......
Why are those "managers" responsible for this MESS still in-situ ??
And, I am sorry to say, there are also some new "managers" who are simply satisfied to continue this farce......
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As BEX so rightly said, the only way out is to TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN. But the local managers on the day, who are under pressure to reduce the headline delays, are regularly calling people back from the Simulator courses to control aircraft. Short term problem solved, but long term not solved as a day lost in the Sim is another day longer until those trainees have a chance of validation and thereby reduce the staff shortages.
Add to that the ORO's attempt (albeit unintentional) to get a part-timer in on overtime before any overtime deal has been signed and while part-timers are SPECIFICALLY excluded from overtime (understandable really, as they will be getting extra overtime money to work the same hours as their full-time colleagues) and you have your answer as to why this place is in a mess.
There were rumours yesterday that North Sea might have to be closed last night as well as Clacton, but it didn't happen in the end. Far East to London without going via North Sea or Clacton sectors would be a bit of a challenge!!
Add to that the ORO's attempt (albeit unintentional) to get a part-timer in on overtime before any overtime deal has been signed and while part-timers are SPECIFICALLY excluded from overtime (understandable really, as they will be getting extra overtime money to work the same hours as their full-time colleagues) and you have your answer as to why this place is in a mess.
There were rumours yesterday that North Sea might have to be closed last night as well as Clacton, but it didn't happen in the end. Far East to London without going via North Sea or Clacton sectors would be a bit of a challenge!!
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Overtime should not be available for night shifts, only to increase the capacity during the core operating hours.
Who really cares down here if sectors close for the night, ATCO's don't because management don't care about them. A vicious circle you might say. ATCO's will always have the ACE up their sleeve, to play whenever they want to show management who really is running this business.
You can probably tell that we are not happy bunnies right now, but we are professional people who will always deliver a high class service (at least when we are not sick).
The staffing office here at Swanwick used to staff more people for nights than they do now, on my sector 4 instead of 3 now. This makes a big difference in the number of hours you work during the night, and whether you get a couple of hours kip, which helps at the end of a night shift when you guys pile in off the ocean and from the far east.
Before the situation improves expect more sector closures on a night.
Who really cares down here if sectors close for the night, ATCO's don't because management don't care about them. A vicious circle you might say. ATCO's will always have the ACE up their sleeve, to play whenever they want to show management who really is running this business.
You can probably tell that we are not happy bunnies right now, but we are professional people who will always deliver a high class service (at least when we are not sick).
The staffing office here at Swanwick used to staff more people for nights than they do now, on my sector 4 instead of 3 now. This makes a big difference in the number of hours you work during the night, and whether you get a couple of hours kip, which helps at the end of a night shift when you guys pile in off the ocean and from the far east.
Before the situation improves expect more sector closures on a night.
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Not quite sure why you sy overtime should not be available for night shifts?
Surely the aim is to increase the staff, and if by offering overtime for nights you can get extra people on nights or relieve the pressure on those frequently doing nights (there are many who have done 16 sets of nights since O date) then that has to be good?
It does of course cause problems for rostering in compliance with SRATCOH, but that's why we employ vast numbers of people in the ORO, isn't it?
Surely the aim is to increase the staff, and if by offering overtime for nights you can get extra people on nights or relieve the pressure on those frequently doing nights (there are many who have done 16 sets of nights since O date) then that has to be good?
It does of course cause problems for rostering in compliance with SRATCOH, but that's why we employ vast numbers of people in the ORO, isn't it?
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Does anyone know the ralative sickness rate at LACC v other area centres and how that compares with the old West Drayton figures ?
Something is causing an awful lot of sickness.
Something is causing an awful lot of sickness.
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With reference to the comment about '16 night shifts'. Someone at TC said our conditions of service that we work under today (WPP), should mean that we work a maximum of 17 sets of night shifs per annum. We cannot be made to work any more than this due to the extra number of hours involved. Can anyone confirm this?
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At least 'management' can take comfort in the fact that both next summer and the one after, delays due to Swanwick will be down by 60%, (% plucked from the ether). This will all be down to them and their skillfull handling of a difficult situation and proof, no doubt, that PPP works.
They will undoubtedly forget to mention the fact that large chunks of the North and Irish sea sectors will by then be controlled from elsewhere, without the requirement to close sectors/introduce flow due to rostering and staffing problems.
It appears that the only way to get our shiny new centre working is for it to handle fewer aircraft and cover less airspace.
Round of applause required I feel!!!
Rgds
T3
They will undoubtedly forget to mention the fact that large chunks of the North and Irish sea sectors will by then be controlled from elsewhere, without the requirement to close sectors/introduce flow due to rostering and staffing problems.
It appears that the only way to get our shiny new centre working is for it to handle fewer aircraft and cover less airspace.
Round of applause required I feel!!!
Rgds
T3
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Over+Out.
17 sets of nights seems to be on everyones tongues at Swanwick too, however, a reliable source down here informed me that the number is a 'gentlemans agreement' and that the real number is somewhere around 23 sets.
The number permitted is so due to your weekly contractual hours (35 hours per week???), and that permenant nights takes you in excess of this, so a selection of spins thrown in occasionally keeps you even. However, the numbers at Swanwick just don't add up, and there will have to be bodies willing to do extra if we are going to have staff doing night shifts, or toward the end of the year, nightshifts won't exist with all the refusals. Catch 22, it'll screw the company into looking after us better, but will it screw ourselves first????????
On a side note, everyone rattles on about number of nights, why hasn't anyone tackled the extra half an hour on a Swanwick D2 spin, as surely this also adds extra onto the average weekly hours worked and busts the limit. Basically, by not doing nights and doing 2 D2's instead, you are only gaining one night not done, as you still get an extra hour from the spins???? Anyone understand my drivellish thinking into this, and am I right?????
17 sets of nights seems to be on everyones tongues at Swanwick too, however, a reliable source down here informed me that the number is a 'gentlemans agreement' and that the real number is somewhere around 23 sets.
The number permitted is so due to your weekly contractual hours (35 hours per week???), and that permenant nights takes you in excess of this, so a selection of spins thrown in occasionally keeps you even. However, the numbers at Swanwick just don't add up, and there will have to be bodies willing to do extra if we are going to have staff doing night shifts, or toward the end of the year, nightshifts won't exist with all the refusals. Catch 22, it'll screw the company into looking after us better, but will it screw ourselves first????????
On a side note, everyone rattles on about number of nights, why hasn't anyone tackled the extra half an hour on a Swanwick D2 spin, as surely this also adds extra onto the average weekly hours worked and busts the limit. Basically, by not doing nights and doing 2 D2's instead, you are only gaining one night not done, as you still get an extra hour from the spins???? Anyone understand my drivellish thinking into this, and am I right?????
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Scott... "Spins" are day duties in lieu of nights. As more staff are needed during the day each watch splits for the last two days of each shift - some guys work the nights and the others work days (spins). "D2" simply indicates the type of "spin" duty. A D1 might run from 0700-1300, a D2 might run from 1000-1800, etc.
The general question of days and nights is very interesting.. I have always despised nights throughout my life but have managed to avoid as many as possible through swaps with colleagues who prefer them. During my 23 years at Heathrow I once went for over 8 years without working a night duty. But I know of several colleagues who much prefer night duties and have only worked a handful of "spins" in 30 years. Once we moved to West Drayton things changed because of the small number of controllers working the Heathrow sector so the nights came around much more frequently. That was the prime reason for me changing to a part-time contract (4 days on 6 off). If somebody had said I could work all days and no nights for a small reduction in pay I'd have done it!
The general question of days and nights is very interesting.. I have always despised nights throughout my life but have managed to avoid as many as possible through swaps with colleagues who prefer them. During my 23 years at Heathrow I once went for over 8 years without working a night duty. But I know of several colleagues who much prefer night duties and have only worked a handful of "spins" in 30 years. Once we moved to West Drayton things changed because of the small number of controllers working the Heathrow sector so the nights came around much more frequently. That was the prime reason for me changing to a part-time contract (4 days on 6 off). If somebody had said I could work all days and no nights for a small reduction in pay I'd have done it!
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And just a small amplification of HD's remarks. D stands for "Day" duty. At Heathrow Tower we have seven different day duties with staggered starting times from 0630 to 1530, numbered D1 to D7. The staff on day duties are from different Watches to the duty Watch, and provide relief breaks. The term "Spin" comes from the original title of the day shifts which was "Rotators", - i.e., you rotate onto another Watch. At Heathrow the term for day shifts is (confusingly), "Co-ordinators".
Time merchant
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"That was the prime reason for me changing to a part-time contract (4 days on 6 off)."
So a company that is accutely short of staff also has long term employees working part time.
Your management is spectacular.
flowman
So a company that is accutely short of staff also has long term employees working part time.
Your management is spectacular.
flowman