Working hours

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Traffictraffic wrote: "If you are an operational ATC in NATS then I would suggest that you could find some of your extra staff by re-rostering the nights on to days to help you train your 60+ backlog of trainees. "

A blindingly good idea, my boy....... which, funnily enough, was introduced some 28 years ago, certainly at Heathrow and LATCC and probably a good few other places. The watch is split and half the guys do day duties whilst the others do nights...

Next suggestion please.............

[TrafficTraffic]

HD

I was on your side - for once

[nats]

Well shoot you,it appears you are the one side stepping the issue,some of these shift times you refer to are in fact at my unit,official start times for the N shift,we have a variety of differing N's,to do precisely what is wanted by management and customer,that is to have staff available to match the traffic.I have said recently,that what may have happened in the past is all but finished in todays area units and given the increasing traffic levels and requirement to have more sectors open during N ops,any 'perks' as you perceive are going going gone.I don't know where you work,but as somebody who sits in front of a radar,I can assure you,when there is a busy eastbound flow through the night,is it not better for everybody concerned to have staff as well rested as can be before dealing with this workload,precisely at the time when the body feels least like doing it.As a proportion of staffing,it is well documented that N's are very efficient in the numbers of staff rostered versus the traffic loadings,any less and there would be delays through the night as well,and of course what you won't realise is that staff on N's make great efforts to attend even when on occasions not feeling at their best,because you know that there is nobody else to call on and you don't want to stuff your colleagues.

[dontshootme]

nats

...when there is a busy eastbound flow through the night,is it not better for everybody concerned to have staff as well rested as can be before dealing with this workload,precisely at the time when the body feels least like doing it.

I just don't see why ATCOs or anyone else should be getting paid for sleeping at home. Shiftworking ATCOs in NATS get paid an allowance as compensation. It's their responsibility to be adequately rested before going to work.

and of course what you won't realise is that staff on N's make great efforts to attend even when on occasions not feeling at their best,because you know that there is nobody else to call on and you don't want to stuff your colleagues.

If someones not fit for work they shouldn't be there. Controlling air traffic when unfit to do so risks lives.

BEXIL160
If I'm wrong about the numbers rostered to be on then publish the correct numbers. While your at it you could include the numbers who don't do a full shift at their workplace on an average night.

[BEXIL160]

You are wrong.

I repeat. Name a NATS unit that has the same number of staff rostered for 1500, and 0300.

You insist that this is true. Back it up. Name ANY NATS unit that does this.

Over.

[Scott Voigt]

In the US all facilities do it a little different to accomadate traffic. But in the enroute environment we staff slightly lower on the day shift, higher on the evening shift and then down to minimums on the midnight shift. The area that I work in we normally staff anywhere from 10 to 12 people on the day shift. 11 to 13 on the evening shift and then 3 on the midnight shift. We have 6 sectors that we can work. Four of them are full time open sectors for the day and evening shift, and two of them are part time... On the midnight shift we only have two sectors open.

All that said, we quite often go down to 9 or 10 people on the day and evening shifts when we are short handed due to vacation and sick leave. You normally have to go below this to get someone to call in overtime...

Again, this is ONE area in our seven areas in our center. Everyone has slightly different numbers. It is that way all over the US...

regards

Scott

PS. No one goes home on official time for the midnight shift. You are there for the duration unless you go home sick, and then you work with two people...

[BALIX]

Dontshootme

You neatly slid the point away from what I was talking about.

Erm, no I didn't, your point was that ATCO's don't work their rostered hours. My response was about those claims. You also mentioned whinging about pay. I replied to that too.

Most NATS ATC units do roster the same number of staff for 3am as 3pm.

With such an obviously incorrect statement like this, you blow your argument completely out of the water. My unit, ScACC, rosters ten on a night shift (plus a supervisor). The morning/afternoon shift will generally roster sixteen or more and they are supplimented by half a dozen day shifts. So in effect there are more than twice the number in during the day.

Grtting back to thos ten night shift workers, that number has been agreed by the usual process of negotiation between management and unions. I don't know what criteria they use to come up with this figure but I suspect it is based on providing enough staff to cover those nights when all the eastbound transatlantc traffic passes through our airspace. That generally arrives from 3 am onwards and the rostering reflects this: four of those ten night shifts come in at some God forsaken hour in the morning.

Of course, some nights we don't get the traffic as it is dependent on the weather patterns. Add to that the ever increasing problems of finding controllers with the correct validations to do band-boxed sectors and you may well see that it might just be a little tricky having staff in positions ONLY when required.

I just don't see why ATCOs or anyone else should be getting paid for sleeping at home.

Hasn't happened on my watch for fifteen years years at least. And for your information, we used to have a load of bedrooms on unit - now we have one.

I'm not denying that there are a few perks regarding the hours we work. It is bound to happen when you try and combine a rigid shift pattern with a traffic flow that is only partly predictable. You will no doubt be delighted to hear that those perks are getting fewer and fewer but when they have gone altogether and the service has not got any better, what are you going to blame then?

[dontshootme]

BALIX
quote:
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I just don't see why ATCOs or anyone else should be getting paid for sleeping at home.
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Hasn't happened on my watch for fifteen years years at least. And for your information, we used to have a load of bedrooms on unit - now we have one.

So who was it I was listening to last week in your canteen discussing who was on an "first" night and who was on a "second".
One was also complaining that she couldn't sleep before coming in and that meant she always had to go to bed after a night shift - poor soul!

If I have got the numbers wrong, fair enough, but it doesn't alter the fact that ATCOs are at home when they are getting paid to be in at work.

[BALIX]

So who was it I was listening to last week in your canteen discussing who was on an "first" night and who was on a "second".

In 'MY' canteen? I fear you must have misheard the people you were 'overhearing'. I know, for certain, that my watch do not operate a one night on, one night off policy and indeed never have done in twenty years. We used to get the odd gash night off a long time ago but not, as I said, for the last fifteen years. As for the other four watches, it does not happen either unless they are being VERY secret about it. As I said before, a number of night shift workers start at 10am, others start at 3am. Here, I suggest, is your 'first' and 'second' night.

The fact that you were in my canteen suggests you work within the NATS organisation. You also seem to have a big prejudice against controllers and, perhaps, other shiftworking staff.

One was also complaining that she couldn't sleep before coming in and that meant she always had to go to bed after a night shift - poor soul!

Yes, poor soul indeed. Maybe you should try doing a couple of night shifts on the trot and see how they have the potential to f*ck up your life. Oh, and then do a couple more ten days later. Make dure that some of them are at the weekend or during the school holidays. Oh, and get a cat that likes to sleep on your bed in the most awkward position whilst you are trying to sleep it off.

If you read back through the thread, you will not see me complaining about the shifts we work, far from it. They suit me much more than 9-5 working could ever do. Your constant ascertation that ATCO's are a bunch of lazy bastards cannot, however, go unchallenged as it is patently not true.

[dontshootme]

BALIX

As I said before, a number of night shift workers start at 10am, others start at 3am. Here, I suggest, is your 'first' and 'second' night.

Could well be. Is the 3am start the actual start time of a shift on the roster, or do these people get paid from 10pm? Do the people who start at 10pm go home at 3am? Are they paid for the rest of the night?

As for your complaining about how tough it is sleeping when you work shifts, forgive me if I don't show much sympathy. Lot's of people work shifts and get paid a fraction of what you do.

[BALIX]

Is the 3am start the actual start time of a shift on the roster, or do these people get paid from 10pm?

Yes and no, in that order.

Do the people who start at 10pm go home at 3am? Are they paid for the rest of the night?

IF the traffic situation permits, a couple of them MIGHT get away. And no, their pay is not docked. Why should it be? Do firemen only get paid when ever there's a fire? I refer you to my previous messages as to why the traffic levels are only partly predictable.

As for your complaining about how tough it is sleeping when you work shifts, forgive me if I don't show much sympathy. Lot's of people work shifts and get paid a fraction of what you do.

I wasn't asking for your sympathy, I was just suggesting you try it sometime before making crass statements. You may also be interested to know that 'Shift Disturbance Allowance' makes up a small fraction of my pay, probably about 5%. That payment covers not just night shift but other shift elements like weekends and evenings. Oh, and here's the rub - if I was working in a non-operational job I would receive Non-Operational Supplement which is, surprise surprise, almost exactly the same as the Shift Disturbance Allowance. In effect, I'm not getting paid a penny more for shiftworking. And no, I'm not complaining about it, I mention it just to highlight another flaw in your argument.

I'm sure you will come back with more 'evidence' that ATCO's are a bunch of slackers and I'm happy to let you have the last say. However, I will say to any independent observers out there, do you trust the word of an ATCO with twenty years shiftworking experience with, admitedly, a vested interest or someone who bases his arguments on what he overhears in the canteen and who has, almost certainly, a huge anti-ATCO chip on his shoulder?

[Scott Voigt]

Don't Shoot Me;

There is a bit of a difference between the folks who work shift work at Burger King and those who keep aircraft apart. Now, if you want to talk about the folks who man the fire brigade or police departments who work shift work and don't get paid what there worth is, that is another. There are however issues with the skills that one must have to be a controller which the general populace just don't have...

How many folks REALLY can see in four dimensions, AND can work under stress at the same time?????

regards

[nats]

A whole scenario painted of ATCO's working practices by somebody earwigging into 'canteen chit chat'!!!!
heard half a story,rembered half of that,add a double dose of exageration,stir up the remainder and what do we have? a rumour,only on PPRUNE folks.
Don't shoot me,have a look at your feet,both barrels,very messy.
Good night.

[dontshootme]

BALIX

Is the 3am start the actual start time of a shift on the roster, or do these people get paid from 10pm?
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Yes and no, in that order.

I'll rephrase the question.
What time do those starting at 3am start getting their hours credited from.

nats

A whole scenario painted of ATCO's working practices by somebody earwigging into 'canteen chit chat'!!!!

No. based on a lot of years in the organisation at a lot of different locations.
The overheard conversation was an illustration of what goes on. Nothing more or less.

svoigt

There are however issues with the skills that one must have to be a controller which the general populace just don't have...

Two issues.
Firstly, that argument applies to many skilled jobs.

Secondly, it's not relevant when discussing about whether people should be allowed to cheat on their working hours. UK aviation suffers lot's of delays because of ATCO shortages. If some are not working the full amount of time they are being paid for, and this is regular and planned, it is simply unjustifiable.

The UK has significant delays at the moment because of controller shortages. The sooner these surplus staff are redeployed to areas where shortages do exist, the sooner they will validate and help ease the situation.

[Scott Voigt]

Don't shoot me;

First off, if this is indeed going on ( I have no knowledge of it ) then it is going on with managements knowledge and blessing. This makes it a past practice and thus is NOT CHEATING! It is just playing by the rules that are in place... If it IS happening, and IF management doesn't want it to happen anymore, then they can very simply enter into negotiation with the union and change it...

regards

[250 kts]

don't shoot. Have you nothing better to do????? We had an exchange about rostered hours on another forum a few weeks ago and you were wrong then just as I think you are now.

If you are not an ATCO what has it got to do what working practices are used at different units?

I don't question why an airline rosters more pilots/cabin crew for a flight than it really has to and hence the additional cost to the ticket,so why are ATC any different?

I say it to you again. MOST NATS units are working their rostered hours. The "good times" ended years ago. There is little or no slack in the staffing levels. Now s*d off and find a different group of hard workers to have a go at.