Working hours
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Working hours
Hi all ATCO's out there, me, a mere driver, heard one day that at a certain airport somewhere in Europe people spend up to 3 hours behind their scope because of a lack of staff.
People have lunch behind the mike as well because there's nobody to relieve them.
I know those hours are unacceptable, but can you shed some light on what the norm is, and what can be done in exceptional circumstances?
Thanks.
People have lunch behind the mike as well because there's nobody to relieve them.
I know those hours are unacceptable, but can you shed some light on what the norm is, and what can be done in exceptional circumstances?
Thanks.
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The longest you can work without a break is 2 hours then you are required by law to have a 1/2 hour break from operational duties. I guess the only reason for breaking these rules would be in the case of an emergency, but certainly not just because you are short staffed.
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Wow!
It would be nice to have rules like that!
Down here is Oz, it's recommended that we have a 15 minute break every 2 hours, but not legislated. We have rosters everywhere that require single man ops on night shifts and significant periods of singleman operations during 'core' hours.
Most positions are singleman operations from 2100-0600, which means no breaks. It's appalling running to the cr@per hoping no one calls!
What a luxury you guys have on the smaller colder island.
Bottle of Rum
Down here is Oz, it's recommended that we have a 15 minute break every 2 hours, but not legislated. We have rosters everywhere that require single man ops on night shifts and significant periods of singleman operations during 'core' hours.
Most positions are singleman operations from 2100-0600, which means no breaks. It's appalling running to the cr@per hoping no one calls!
What a luxury you guys have on the smaller colder island.
Bottle of Rum
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"People have lunch behind the mike as well because there's nobody to relieve them"
I know that in many places in Sweden (And allso some places in Norway at certain times of the day), you have towers that are 1-man operated, not even a flight data assistant. I know that at Trollhättan/ESGT the controller work 8 straight hours without rest.
Luch is consumed in the hot seat. The traffic load is low at ESGT, but still.........
I know that in many places in Sweden (And allso some places in Norway at certain times of the day), you have towers that are 1-man operated, not even a flight data assistant. I know that at Trollhättan/ESGT the controller work 8 straight hours without rest.
Luch is consumed in the hot seat. The traffic load is low at ESGT, but still.........
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What one has to bear in mind is, that the customers create a demand, and ATC has to deliver the required service, no matter what the staffing level is. There's the constant pressure to minimize delays, to improve services (more direct routes), to keep costs low, to cope with the traffic increase, and still be able to deliver the services required.
So what happens first, if ATC agencies are understaffed?
Thinning out the roster, longer time on the sector without breaks (even beyond 2 hrs), resorting to single manned operations at certain times, going to the minimum with leave and days off. Assistants? Not required anymore, controllers can do this themselves (plus saves personnel costs). Planners? Coordinators? Scrap 'em (saves personnel costs as well). 7 hour single manned shifts in towers? Not a problem (and guess what: saves personnel costs again!).
And only when the staffing level has reached such a critical stage, that even none of the above mentioned cuts can ease it anymore, only then the customers are being affected (keeping sectors combined and tightening flow control with more delays resulting).
So what happens first, if ATC agencies are understaffed?
Thinning out the roster, longer time on the sector without breaks (even beyond 2 hrs), resorting to single manned operations at certain times, going to the minimum with leave and days off. Assistants? Not required anymore, controllers can do this themselves (plus saves personnel costs). Planners? Coordinators? Scrap 'em (saves personnel costs as well). 7 hour single manned shifts in towers? Not a problem (and guess what: saves personnel costs again!).
And only when the staffing level has reached such a critical stage, that even none of the above mentioned cuts can ease it anymore, only then the customers are being affected (keeping sectors combined and tightening flow control with more delays resulting).
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But what is legally acceptable? I live a happy, (relatively) sheltered life, protected as I am by a comprehensive ruling about Work and Resttimes, is there anything similar for ATC?
I know it takes place, but is it legal?
I know it takes place, but is it legal?
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S76Heavy
Depends where and who's laws. In the Uk, max 2 hours in the seat and minimum 30 mins break. Simple. When I was in the middle east a couple of years ago, 3 hour stints were common but usually with much longer breaks afterwards (even the next 3 hours on nights!). Here in Switzerland, it is not uncommon to work a little over two hours (although with at least one change of position) with another two after a 20 minute break. All legal in their own way.
Depends where and who's laws. In the Uk, max 2 hours in the seat and minimum 30 mins break. Simple. When I was in the middle east a couple of years ago, 3 hour stints were common but usually with much longer breaks afterwards (even the next 3 hours on nights!). Here in Switzerland, it is not uncommon to work a little over two hours (although with at least one change of position) with another two after a 20 minute break. All legal in their own way.
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S76H
You'll find the "SRATCOH" rules at the end of http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP670_A05.pdf The entire document is about 2.2MB in it's entirety but I think the bit you're interested in is Annex D (?)
These are the basis upon which rosters are compiled and service is delivered in the UK. Different ATSPs may use these rules different ways according to the service they offer (or are contracted to) e.g. closing ATC for fatigue breaks or providing relief or indeed augmenting the maximums to give relief every 90 minutes etc.
1261 - I thought OPM calculated minimum rest breaks according to where you were sitting (i.e. SRATCOH position or Enhanced Relief) and accrued breaks of 1 per 4 or 1 per 3 minutes worked respectively (?) [In any event, there is a debate to be had as to whether the way this is calculated is or isn't in the spirit or letter of CAP670 - but I'll leave it to those who know more (just about everyone) to have it ....
Hope this helps,
RT
You'll find the "SRATCOH" rules at the end of http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP670_A05.pdf The entire document is about 2.2MB in it's entirety but I think the bit you're interested in is Annex D (?)
These are the basis upon which rosters are compiled and service is delivered in the UK. Different ATSPs may use these rules different ways according to the service they offer (or are contracted to) e.g. closing ATC for fatigue breaks or providing relief or indeed augmenting the maximums to give relief every 90 minutes etc.
1261 - I thought OPM calculated minimum rest breaks according to where you were sitting (i.e. SRATCOH position or Enhanced Relief) and accrued breaks of 1 per 4 or 1 per 3 minutes worked respectively (?) [In any event, there is a debate to be had as to whether the way this is calculated is or isn't in the spirit or letter of CAP670 - but I'll leave it to those who know more (just about everyone) to have it ....
Hope this helps,
RT
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Thanks all for your input. Very much appreciated. Judging from the number of views it was interesting to many other Ppruners as well.
Unable to comply as far as coffee and cakes are concerned, I'm afraid..
Unable to comply as far as coffee and cakes are concerned, I'm afraid..
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We have a dispensation from the CAA to work up to 4hrs without a break and the bit about light TFC only has been lost somewhere along the way. Oh to work in NATS!
Edited for v poor spelling!
Edited for v poor spelling!
Last edited by Vlax; 6th Sep 2002 at 17:20.
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Don't forget that most operational NATS ATCOs don't work their rostered hours anyway. Most will get to spend half of the nightshift at home in bed, some will get all of it
And for our last post......
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.,
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As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.
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I am not the one suggesting I am underpaid or overworked. I am wondering where fire officers spend most of their night shift? Or Engineers monitoring systems etc....
If you are an operational ATC in NATS then I would suggest that you could find some of your extra staff by re-rostering the nights on to days to help you train your 60+ backlog of trainees.
But I doubt you are. An Operational ATC
And of course nobody else in the entire world gets benefits in their jobs....do they?
If you are an operational ATC in NATS then I would suggest that you could find some of your extra staff by re-rostering the nights on to days to help you train your 60+ backlog of trainees.
But I doubt you are. An Operational ATC
And of course nobody else in the entire world gets benefits in their jobs....do they?
I'm Just A Lawnmower
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A reaction you will not see is denial because what I posted is true. Funny how those who whinge about how hard a job it is and how underpaid they are don't mention this up-side to their job.
Air traffic, however, follows its own pattern dependent on time of the day. day of the week and, in some cases, weather patterns. Staffing has to, within reason, cater for the busy periods which means that during the quiet periods there may well be an excess of staff. It happens in other walks of life - look at your average charter pilot for example - working his bollocks off in summer but largely idle in the winter (I expect I'll get flamed for that
) So yes, there are perks in the job regarding hours but, it has to be said, not nearly as many as there were. (And I'm sure there are Swanwick controllers out there that can confirm that due to staff shortages that their 'perks' are virtually non-existant now.)
But just because some of us might get a few hours kip on a night shift does not mean that we don't have genuine concerns about aspects of the job and that we shouldn't air them on an ATC forum. Most ATCO's want to provide the best service possible. Also, for the record, I don't think I'm underpaid as a top of the scale ATCO 2 but I do feel that there are certian pay issues that should be addressed such as the length of the incremental pay scale and some unit grading issues.
So dontshootme, how about taking that chip of your shoulder, eh? I've no idea what you do for a living but (unless you are an MP
) I'm not going to slag off your chosen profession.
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BALIX
Thanks for the well written response. You neatly slid the point away from what I was talking about.
Many occupations have busy and slack periods during the average working day. Most of these staff accordingly. Your local 24 hour supermarket does not have as many people rostered to be on at 3am as it does at 3pm, neither does your local hospital.
Most NATS ATC units do roster the same number of staff for 3am as 3pm. These staff then split the night shifts so that on some units they spend a whole nightshift at home in bed, whereas on other units they swap over at 2 or 3 in the morning. This is quite different from getting your head down during a quiet spell.
The issue of SRATCOH and time off between shifts is a smokescreen. The airlines manage to roster crews with similar legal restrictions, and they can do it on a day by day basis when necessary.
It is an undeniable fact that NATS is putting delays in to the system because positions are closed due to staff shortages.
How can this be justified when they are allowing controllers to abuse their working practices in this way?
Thanks for the well written response. You neatly slid the point away from what I was talking about.
Many occupations have busy and slack periods during the average working day. Most of these staff accordingly. Your local 24 hour supermarket does not have as many people rostered to be on at 3am as it does at 3pm, neither does your local hospital.
Most NATS ATC units do roster the same number of staff for 3am as 3pm. These staff then split the night shifts so that on some units they spend a whole nightshift at home in bed, whereas on other units they swap over at 2 or 3 in the morning. This is quite different from getting your head down during a quiet spell.
The issue of SRATCOH and time off between shifts is a smokescreen. The airlines manage to roster crews with similar legal restrictions, and they can do it on a day by day basis when necessary.
It is an undeniable fact that NATS is putting delays in to the system because positions are closed due to staff shortages.
How can this be justified when they are allowing controllers to abuse their working practices in this way?