Enroute vectoring over the UK
Thread Starter
Enroute vectoring over the UK
Hi, wonder if any UK based ATCO will answer this. On basically all of my UK and mid to South mainland EUR flights we cross over the UK off the Atlantic. And most of the time we are being sent on radar vectors at CRZ levels. Especially Northbound, from the UK airspace border up until well into Scottisch airspace, until we get a direct to the Oceanic Entry point. Usually parallell to or zigzagging the intended routeing. In what way does this benefit ATC? More work for pilots and controllers keeping up with the headings is my first impression. RNAV was supposed to simplify things. This is a pretty unique UK ATC thing.
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It has been some time since I did all this but I seem to remember that aircraft were put on radar headings to provide separation from others climbing or descending through their levels!!
Clearly I don't know the levels at which you cross UK airspace but there are a considerable numbers of aircraft wishing to fly at higher levels than yours that may have originated in Northern Europe or London TMA and wish to be given them by ATC.
Rest assured that we don't require aircraft to be on our navigation without good reason and you will be released when that need ends.
That's enough for now.
Clearly I don't know the levels at which you cross UK airspace but there are a considerable numbers of aircraft wishing to fly at higher levels than yours that may have originated in Northern Europe or London TMA and wish to be given them by ATC.
Rest assured that we don't require aircraft to be on our navigation without good reason and you will be released when that need ends.
That's enough for now.
Thread Starter
Thanks for your reply. We operate pretty much at FL320-410 depending on direction of flight and the origin. Donīt believe I have noticed any difference whether operating higher or lower.
But in other FIRs there is traffic climbing and decending all the time without the enroute vectoring. It is that difference in procedures I am trying to understand.
But in other FIRs there is traffic climbing and decending all the time without the enroute vectoring. It is that difference in procedures I am trying to understand.
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Because it's usually the only way to stop you clanging into something else - assume you're heading north up the spine of the country from Europe - north of London you're joined by Paris outbounds that either want the same level as you or a higher one, Brussels, Amsterdam and German traffic all come and join your route. There are slightly different airways to follow, but more often than not you need crossing over. By the time you reach Manchester ish, there's a load of crossing traffic as well the London outbounds that need to be climbed and then there's the Scottish inbound traffic to be descended through. Once you reach Scottish airspace, there's a lot less traffic and a lot more space so they can send you direct a lot easier. It's the same if you head out over the West towards Ireland, just with different aircraft and substitute Scottish for Irish 
A lot of other FIRs have got a lot more space than we do too, particularly heading up the country and out west as there is a lot of danger areas to contend with during the week which compresses the space we have available.
RNAV routes are mainly found to the south of the FIR at the moment, there's work afoot to get more of them introduced as you go further north. In terms of our workload, it's obviously easier to have you on your own nav, but the kit we've got does a pretty good job of helping us monitor a lot of traffic on headings too
A lot of other FIRs have got a lot more space than we do too, particularly heading up the country and out west as there is a lot of danger areas to contend with during the week which compresses the space we have available.
RNAV routes are mainly found to the south of the FIR at the moment, there's work afoot to get more of them introduced as you go further north. In terms of our workload, it's obviously easier to have you on your own nav, but the kit we've got does a pretty good job of helping us monitor a lot of traffic on headings too
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Although retired, I believe it is because the vast majority of UK ATCOs still do give a damn about getting everyone at their optimum levels and that requires some headings !
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Hi, wonder if any UK based ATCO will answer this. On basically all of my UK and mid to South mainland EUR flights we cross over the UK off the Atlantic. And most of the time we are being sent on radar vectors at CRZ levels. Especially Northbound, from the UK airspace border up until well into Scottisch airspace, until we get a direct to the Oceanic Entry point. Usually parallell to or zigzagging the intended routeing. In what way does this benefit ATC? More work for pilots and controllers keeping up with the headings is my first impression. RNAV was supposed to simplify things. This is a pretty unique UK ATC thing.
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Ask on frequency the reason for the radar vectors if you have not been told. We are required to inform you why you are being placed on a heading, and if I'm not too busy I will give you a big long winded description of all the relevant traffic to affect in your area, and so you might regret asking in the end.
Only thing I will say it's never for no reason, because headings are more work controller side, and personally I take aircraft off a heading essentially the moment the lateral/vertical separation is increasing again. Travelling up through the spine of England as others has mentioned, will have you conflicting with a massive amount of inbound/outbound and overflying traffic. It's a busy sky at the moment.
Only thing I will say it's never for no reason, because headings are more work controller side, and personally I take aircraft off a heading essentially the moment the lateral/vertical separation is increasing again. Travelling up through the spine of England as others has mentioned, will have you conflicting with a massive amount of inbound/outbound and overflying traffic. It's a busy sky at the moment.
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UK ATC in my experience was (I'm no longer flying) excellent. (As were Brit controllers in other parts of the world) If the OP is worried about vectoring try going to the Balearic Islands...... We were going into Palma one day and were vectored so much that we were over Ibiza! Of course the local Spanish operators were never subject to such detours, straight in, all day, any way..........
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Ask on frequency the reason for the radar vectors if you have not been told. We are required to inform you why you are being placed on a heading, and if I'm not too busy I will give you a big long winded description of all the relevant traffic to affect in your area, and so you might regret asking in the end.
Only thing I will say it's never for no reason, because headings are more work controller side, and personally I take aircraft off a heading essentially the moment the lateral/vertical separation is increasing again. Travelling up through the spine of England as others has mentioned, will have you conflicting with a massive amount of inbound/outbound and overflying traffic. It's a busy sky at the moment.
Only thing I will say it's never for no reason, because headings are more work controller side, and personally I take aircraft off a heading essentially the moment the lateral/vertical separation is increasing again. Travelling up through the spine of England as others has mentioned, will have you conflicting with a massive amount of inbound/outbound and overflying traffic. It's a busy sky at the moment.
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Hi OceanCrosser,
I will try and keep my answer brief. I do work on the sector that you travel across. There are many reasons why and any one of them, then there is a requirement for aircraft to be on a heading as mentioned. You do mention that with RNAV, everything was supposed to be easier but aircraft may be equipped but the route structure is still the same and the procedures that go with it haven't been updated but work is still ongoing. This of course is coupled with the individual in situ and how happy they are for you to be closer to other aircraft either at the same level (hopefully not converging) or climbing you through other aircraft.
Ultimatly, I think the UK pushes 25%ish (latest figures) of all of the EUs traffic and I for one would love the military to just do their thing close to iceland but alas.......with so many MTAs and Danger Areas, we have even less airspace through our upper airspace route structure so unfortunatly by definition you are closer to all the other traffic and with so many airfields in the UK, all the overflights will need to be accommodated with all the inbounds and outbounds into the UK as well as Paris, Amsterdam, Dublin and Brussels FIR. It does get interesting.
The last reason is pretty much for sequencing, so not really traffic but getting you in some order for our colleagues in the next sector.
I think to truely appreciate it, I suggest a visit and you will be able to see for yourself what our issues are and what we are trying to achieve to but a lot of the times, a direct would help but if you could convince the military to go away.....that would be very much appreciated.
I will try and keep my answer brief. I do work on the sector that you travel across. There are many reasons why and any one of them, then there is a requirement for aircraft to be on a heading as mentioned. You do mention that with RNAV, everything was supposed to be easier but aircraft may be equipped but the route structure is still the same and the procedures that go with it haven't been updated but work is still ongoing. This of course is coupled with the individual in situ and how happy they are for you to be closer to other aircraft either at the same level (hopefully not converging) or climbing you through other aircraft.
Ultimatly, I think the UK pushes 25%ish (latest figures) of all of the EUs traffic and I for one would love the military to just do their thing close to iceland but alas.......with so many MTAs and Danger Areas, we have even less airspace through our upper airspace route structure so unfortunatly by definition you are closer to all the other traffic and with so many airfields in the UK, all the overflights will need to be accommodated with all the inbounds and outbounds into the UK as well as Paris, Amsterdam, Dublin and Brussels FIR. It does get interesting.
The last reason is pretty much for sequencing, so not really traffic but getting you in some order for our colleagues in the next sector.
I think to truely appreciate it, I suggest a visit and you will be able to see for yourself what our issues are and what we are trying to achieve to but a lot of the times, a direct would help but if you could convince the military to go away.....that would be very much appreciated.
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Oceancrosser - the airspace you describe going north up the sppine of the UK or West of EGLL towards the ocean is severly constrianed by military training areas and other danger areas with surface to air firing, drone activity or ship based war type activity. Thats before you include Virgin Galactic and its space launches. Spcifically heading north and west the airspace available is anything from 12 - 25 miles wide, in the upper air we are required to keep you laterally 5nm apart. This therefore allows for three to six a/c abeam each other adn typically less as achieving only 5 miles is difficult with varying wind, different a/c types and the need to climb and descend though other a/c through differing wind bands. The RNAV routes you allude to are there but if someone out of Spain is sat there all happy at FL340 and someone underneath out of Paris or London wants FL400, or, someone into Manchester or a Scottish airfield is at FL400 and needs descent to land then how do we achieve this whilst maintaining a minimum lateral distance of 5nm's? The answer is to move you around on headings which often results in zig zags as you describe. One controllers plan for their aircraft to get there job done may not suit the controller of the airspace above or below who ultimately then moves you around again to suit their traffic. Hope that helps, maybe dowload the FlightRadar app and have a look at the traffic picture sometime, difficult to picture the 3D puzzle they have from a 2D picture without all the info for every flight about type, speed, departure airport and destination in addition to their preferred/optimum requested level.
Believe me, if we can get you a direct route that gets you out the way of stuff we do it, if not we use headings to solve our 3D puzzle and get you going backk in the right direction as soon as possible. We are even monitored and measured on it by a measure called 3Di, it looks at continous climb and descent profiles together with a/c track against flight plan or great circle route. The lower the score the better and points are scored for level offs and taking you off route.
We dont do it for the fun of it, but we have very little space to manoeuver in and quite a lot of aircraft who need to be manipulated to achieve what ultimately they want!
Believe me, if we can get you a direct route that gets you out the way of stuff we do it, if not we use headings to solve our 3D puzzle and get you going backk in the right direction as soon as possible. We are even monitored and measured on it by a measure called 3Di, it looks at continous climb and descent profiles together with a/c track against flight plan or great circle route. The lower the score the better and points are scored for level offs and taking you off route.
We dont do it for the fun of it, but we have very little space to manoeuver in and quite a lot of aircraft who need to be manipulated to achieve what ultimately they want!
