UK ATC Worst in Europe
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UK ATC Worst in Europe
Sunday Times - August 25:
Insight: Air traffic control in UK worst in Europe
BRITAIN’S new £620m air traffic control centre has been branded the worst in Europe, causing more than half of all air traffic hold-ups.
An official report by Eurocontrol, which manages European air space, shows the centre is responsible for more delays than all the other 30 national air traffic agencies put together.
It also emerged this weekend that despite the huge investment in technology, passengers are suffering record delays even though the centre, at Swanwick in Hampshire, is handling fewer planes than the old “low tech” system it replaced.
There has been a doubling in the level of delays during this summer’s peak holiday season compared with the same period last year. The failings have also led Eurocontrol to issue a number of warnings to foreign pilots to avoid UK air space unless they have to land in Britain. At the worst times this summer Britons have been three times more likely to be delayed when flying to Mediterranean destinations than German or French travellers. At Gatwick 35% of planes were delayed, with more than 4,000 flights having an average delay of 20 minutes.
The revelations are certain to reignite the row over the centre. John Prescott and Stephen Byers, then transport secretary, pressed ahead with the launch of the system in January and pushed through part-privatisation of the National Air Traffic Services (Nats) despite opposition from backbench Labour MPs.
The poor performance of the centre in its first six months of operation is also a serious setback for Nats, which failed to remove all of the system flaws or ensure there were enough controllers to run it before it opened.
---------------------------------
Insight: Hi-tech shambles of Britain’s airspace
IT HAS been a disaster more than 10 years in the making. Britain’s new air traffic control centre has turned the country’s airspace into the bottleneck of Europe..........
The most damaging indictment is provided by Eurocontrol, the agency that manages airspace capacity. John Byrom, of Eurocontrol, said the UK had accounted for 51% of air traffic delays in Europe since January, compared with less than 15% for the whole of 2001.
In July, the peak holiday month, a 26-page document from Eurocontrol shows that 43% of air traffic delays were caused by Britain..................
The problems are so severe that Eurocontrol has issued bulletins advising pilots to avoid Britain at the worst periods. One on July 25 said: “If routes can be found avoiding UK airspace . . . then rerouting is strongly recommended.”........................
Insight: Air traffic control in UK worst in Europe
BRITAIN’S new £620m air traffic control centre has been branded the worst in Europe, causing more than half of all air traffic hold-ups.
An official report by Eurocontrol, which manages European air space, shows the centre is responsible for more delays than all the other 30 national air traffic agencies put together.
It also emerged this weekend that despite the huge investment in technology, passengers are suffering record delays even though the centre, at Swanwick in Hampshire, is handling fewer planes than the old “low tech” system it replaced.
There has been a doubling in the level of delays during this summer’s peak holiday season compared with the same period last year. The failings have also led Eurocontrol to issue a number of warnings to foreign pilots to avoid UK air space unless they have to land in Britain. At the worst times this summer Britons have been three times more likely to be delayed when flying to Mediterranean destinations than German or French travellers. At Gatwick 35% of planes were delayed, with more than 4,000 flights having an average delay of 20 minutes.
The revelations are certain to reignite the row over the centre. John Prescott and Stephen Byers, then transport secretary, pressed ahead with the launch of the system in January and pushed through part-privatisation of the National Air Traffic Services (Nats) despite opposition from backbench Labour MPs.
The poor performance of the centre in its first six months of operation is also a serious setback for Nats, which failed to remove all of the system flaws or ensure there were enough controllers to run it before it opened.
---------------------------------
Insight: Hi-tech shambles of Britain’s airspace
IT HAS been a disaster more than 10 years in the making. Britain’s new air traffic control centre has turned the country’s airspace into the bottleneck of Europe..........
The most damaging indictment is provided by Eurocontrol, the agency that manages airspace capacity. John Byrom, of Eurocontrol, said the UK had accounted for 51% of air traffic delays in Europe since January, compared with less than 15% for the whole of 2001.
In July, the peak holiday month, a 26-page document from Eurocontrol shows that 43% of air traffic delays were caused by Britain..................
The problems are so severe that Eurocontrol has issued bulletins advising pilots to avoid Britain at the worst periods. One on July 25 said: “If routes can be found avoiding UK airspace . . . then rerouting is strongly recommended.”........................
Last edited by ORAC; 25th Aug 2002 at 00:22.
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i'm just curious
If over 50% of airtraffic world wide (according to AOPA), is taking place in the USA, then how come the USA isn't having nearly as much problems as countries like the UK?
Here in the US i can take a small plane and fly to the next big airport (say Dallas Class B), and they wouldn't care that i'm flying there - and land - and of course never even ask for prior permission. But from what i'm reading, not in this post - but others, European ATC has trouble handling a half a dozen of planes (exaggeration - i hope so at least
)
Just my 2 cents though
If over 50% of airtraffic world wide (according to AOPA), is taking place in the USA, then how come the USA isn't having nearly as much problems as countries like the UK?
Here in the US i can take a small plane and fly to the next big airport (say Dallas Class B), and they wouldn't care that i'm flying there - and land - and of course never even ask for prior permission. But from what i'm reading, not in this post - but others, European ATC has trouble handling a half a dozen of planes (exaggeration - i hope so at least
)Just my 2 cents though
NATS MANAGEMENT ARE AT FAULT
ALL THIS stems from NATS Management (not including the present incumbent Chief Executive), who went ahead with the opening of Swanwick because no-one was prepared to stand up and be counted, and admit that NATS didn't - and doesn't - have enough staff to properly man the new centre.
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The operational staff have been saying for years that due to the T and P requirement for more staff, Swanwick would cause delays. NATS mangement did not convey this to the airlines. They said the new centre would shift more planes.
LIES !!
Let's hope the NATS Mgt team who did not, and still do not, tell the truth are sacked.
And it will only get worse - there is no short-term fix. LISTEN to us - we know what we are talking about. Next year the staffing situation will be worse than this year due to the numbers of controllers retiring.
LIES !!
Let's hope the NATS Mgt team who did not, and still do not, tell the truth are sacked.
And it will only get worse - there is no short-term fix. LISTEN to us - we know what we are talking about. Next year the staffing situation will be worse than this year due to the numbers of controllers retiring.
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The article should more correctly be entitled:
The Worst Managed ATC in Europe
The few actual operational staff at the sharp end (ATCOs/ ATSAs/ ATEs) are among the best anywhere. Those few are also very peed off with "the management" not taking responsibility for this mess, which they were warned about and took no action to rectify.
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mattpilot.....
Lots of reasons that it's more difficult in Europe.
The USA is largely a sparsely populated area, at least in comparison to Europe, with a lot of BIG airports (How many in the DFW area alone for instance?).
The weather is generally better in the USA
There is only ONE national ATC service provider in the USA (the FAA), in Europe we have lots and lots, many with their own languages and in some cases, agendas.
Watch out for the big cloud on your horizon though. It's called PRIVATISATION, and will, as it has in the UK, completely F## , sorry, mess up, the situation. Oh, and you're also gonna be very short of controllers as well. Same as us in the UK!
Best rgds
BEX
The Worst Managed ATC in Europe
The few actual operational staff at the sharp end (ATCOs/ ATSAs/ ATEs) are among the best anywhere. Those few are also very peed off with "the management" not taking responsibility for this mess, which they were warned about and took no action to rectify.
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mattpilot.....
Lots of reasons that it's more difficult in Europe.
The USA is largely a sparsely populated area, at least in comparison to Europe, with a lot of BIG airports (How many in the DFW area alone for instance?).
The weather is generally better in the USA
There is only ONE national ATC service provider in the USA (the FAA), in Europe we have lots and lots, many with their own languages and in some cases, agendas.
Watch out for the big cloud on your horizon though. It's called PRIVATISATION, and will, as it has in the UK, completely F## , sorry, mess up, the situation. Oh, and you're also gonna be very short of controllers as well. Same as us in the UK!
Best rgds
BEX
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privatisation
im really going to walk in to the lions den here. what is wrong with privatised atc? or do you mean a privatised national system ie the airways? how many towers in the uk are run by private companies? are those controllers any worse than nats controllers, i dont think so! and before anyone starts on about the railtrack fiasco dont forget that until 1947 the railways were under private ownership. so to really **** up a transport system put it in state hands!
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Canberra
You've got a point - NATS was in a mess before privatisation as well. It is not privatisation per se that is the problem, it is what we have ended up with following a rather botched attempt by Blair and his chums to bring it in, combined with the global downturn in traffic caused firstly by airlines overstretching themselves and secondly by Bin Laden.
NATS controllers were against privatisation mainly as they felt it might impinge on their pay and working conditions. Sure, they had saftey concerns and the like but had privatisation come with the promise of a 10% pay hike and five extra days leave a year, I guess we could have got over them
What we have, though, is NATS in a worse mess than it was before and privatisation is one of the reasons.
You've got a point - NATS was in a mess before privatisation as well. It is not privatisation per se that is the problem, it is what we have ended up with following a rather botched attempt by Blair and his chums to bring it in, combined with the global downturn in traffic caused firstly by airlines overstretching themselves and secondly by Bin Laden.
NATS controllers were against privatisation mainly as they felt it might impinge on their pay and working conditions. Sure, they had saftey concerns and the like but had privatisation come with the promise of a 10% pay hike and five extra days leave a year, I guess we could have got over them
What we have, though, is NATS in a worse mess than it was before and privatisation is one of the reasons.
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I'm confused
Balix- You claim your problems are partly caused by downturn in traffic. Isn't that article claiming you can't handle the traffic you have, let alone any more?
Are you confusing finance with controller numbers/atc systems? It's an easy mistake to make- lots of managers do.
Are you confusing finance with controller numbers/atc systems? It's an easy mistake to make- lots of managers do.
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canberra makes a good point. There's nothing wrong with privatisation if it's done properly, after all the airlines don't cut corners with safety and they're not state owned. Perhaps everything would have worked better if the government had done a full privatisation.
One big mistake was leaving so much of the old management structure in place. NATS still has the old working practices in place where most operational staff don't work their conditioned hours. It's difficult for those senior managers who used to benefit from these dodgy practices to turn round and put a stop to them.
As I've said in another topic here, sort out the working practices and you'll free up a lot of staff to move to Swanwick and cut the delays.
One big mistake was leaving so much of the old management structure in place. NATS still has the old working practices in place where most operational staff don't work their conditioned hours. It's difficult for those senior managers who used to benefit from these dodgy practices to turn round and put a stop to them.
As I've said in another topic here, sort out the working practices and you'll free up a lot of staff to move to Swanwick and cut the delays.
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Perhaps its because I'm from Yorkshire, but it seems to me that money, be it £,$ or €, and political will are the root cause of the problems in NATS. ('Management', and I use the term loosely, aside that is).
Labour went ahead with PPP because 'Pa Broon' said the Tories had carved the sale in stone and who were Labour to do anything different from the Tories? He also wanted the projected £800 mil for sweetners in the run-up to the last general election.
Underfunding and the DELIBERATE mis-handling of large scale programmes led to a situation where the government could throw its hands up in the air and cry out for private capital and expertise to come and sort out the mess which they themselves had both created and compounded.
It all boils down to cash - The lack of will to allow NATS to raise money outwith the PSBR and the desire for a few more quid to splash out on NHS Administrators and Classroom Assistants.
As a result, NATS is now a private company who instead of making a profit to pass on to shareholders makes a profit to manage its debt. (The shareholder dividends now being paid out in the form of loan repayments on behalf of the Airline Group to its lenders).
There may be nothing wrong with privatised ATC in the true not-for-profit sense. But NATS is being forced to make money at the expense of countless other things, including some would argue safety, just to keep the banks, rather than the shareholders, sweet.
Newsflash y'awl - IT DOESN'T AND NEVER WILL WORK!!!
Rgds
T3
Labour went ahead with PPP because 'Pa Broon' said the Tories had carved the sale in stone and who were Labour to do anything different from the Tories? He also wanted the projected £800 mil for sweetners in the run-up to the last general election.
Underfunding and the DELIBERATE mis-handling of large scale programmes led to a situation where the government could throw its hands up in the air and cry out for private capital and expertise to come and sort out the mess which they themselves had both created and compounded.
It all boils down to cash - The lack of will to allow NATS to raise money outwith the PSBR and the desire for a few more quid to splash out on NHS Administrators and Classroom Assistants.
As a result, NATS is now a private company who instead of making a profit to pass on to shareholders makes a profit to manage its debt. (The shareholder dividends now being paid out in the form of loan repayments on behalf of the Airline Group to its lenders).
There may be nothing wrong with privatised ATC in the true not-for-profit sense. But NATS is being forced to make money at the expense of countless other things, including some would argue safety, just to keep the banks, rather than the shareholders, sweet.
Newsflash y'awl - IT DOESN'T AND NEVER WILL WORK!!!
Rgds
T3
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mattpilot,
The reason that the US air traffic control system isn't in shambles is because:
1. It is still managed and operated by the Federal Goverment (FAA)
2. NATCA holds SAFETY to the highest level possible, we work together with the FAA to develop new equipment and procedures. We take our message to our elected representatives who have learned that NATCA Does Not cry Wolf, we state the Facts and back them up with solid documentation.
Could what is happening in Canada, and the UK happen in the US, yes it could if Congress should ever decide to sell us out to the lowest bidder.
Mike
The reason that the US air traffic control system isn't in shambles is because:
1. It is still managed and operated by the Federal Goverment (FAA)
2. NATCA holds SAFETY to the highest level possible, we work together with the FAA to develop new equipment and procedures. We take our message to our elected representatives who have learned that NATCA Does Not cry Wolf, we state the Facts and back them up with solid documentation.
Could what is happening in Canada, and the UK happen in the US, yes it could if Congress should ever decide to sell us out to the lowest bidder.
Mike
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BEXIL;
West of the Mississipi River, things are more sparse, but we still have busy areas... The east coast for the most part is pretty dense and if you look at the TSD at any time, you will see that we have a butt load of traffic <G> there at any given moment. In fact, if you look at the traffic in the UK compared to the eastern seaboard, you will find it is a little less dense in the UK. We get to look at it in near real time every day...
As to the DFW area, we have a bit over a hundred airports in the approach control area which covers about the same amount of area as metro London and outskirts I believe, maybe a bit more. These are controlled and uncontrolled airports, both paved and grass strips. Lots of VFR's that no one talks too, but also a lot of folks (GA) who are transiting around class B and some even through it. But, you've been over here to watch it from time to time...
regards
West of the Mississipi River, things are more sparse, but we still have busy areas... The east coast for the most part is pretty dense and if you look at the TSD at any time, you will see that we have a butt load of traffic <G> there at any given moment. In fact, if you look at the traffic in the UK compared to the eastern seaboard, you will find it is a little less dense in the UK. We get to look at it in near real time every day...
As to the DFW area, we have a bit over a hundred airports in the approach control area which covers about the same amount of area as metro London and outskirts I believe, maybe a bit more. These are controlled and uncontrolled airports, both paved and grass strips. Lots of VFR's that no one talks too, but also a lot of folks (GA) who are transiting around class B and some even through it. But, you've been over here to watch it from time to time...
regards
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Scott...
My post lost something mid-atlantic methinks!
You know that I know (!) how busy it can be out east, and certainly in the DFW Area and many others in the USA. But then there are a lot of airports for those aeroplanes to fly into. Europe ain't so lucky, where we have quite a few aircraft in a small geographic area but rather fewer runways for them to use. Hence the complexity, which isn't always a function of how many aircraft are in the sky.
By relatively sparsely populated , I meant with people and urban areas, not aircraft or airports.
Best rgds
BEX
My post lost something mid-atlantic methinks!
You know that I know (!) how busy it can be out east, and certainly in the DFW Area and many others in the USA. But then there are a lot of airports for those aeroplanes to fly into. Europe ain't so lucky, where we have quite a few aircraft in a small geographic area but rather fewer runways for them to use. Hence the complexity, which isn't always a function of how many aircraft are in the sky.
By relatively sparsely populated , I meant with people and urban areas, not aircraft or airports.
Best rgds
BEX
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Ferris
I wasn't confusing the issue, merely saying that privatisation and the way it has been don has been a contributing factor to the mess that NATS finds itself in and not the sole reason.
Had privatisation not occured, NATS would still have the problems of undermanning at Swanwick (a problem that should have been solved well before privatisation) and the problems of reduced income due to 911 and the global downturn.
What privatisation has done is made the situation worse as NATS now has not only to deal with the above mentioned problems but also has to service an £800 million loan taken out just to fill the exchequers coffers.
I wasn't confusing the issue, merely saying that privatisation and the way it has been don has been a contributing factor to the mess that NATS finds itself in and not the sole reason.
Had privatisation not occured, NATS would still have the problems of undermanning at Swanwick (a problem that should have been solved well before privatisation) and the problems of reduced income due to 911 and the global downturn.
What privatisation has done is made the situation worse as NATS now has not only to deal with the above mentioned problems but also has to service an £800 million loan taken out just to fill the exchequers coffers.
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The rub
This phenomenon is happening in lots of places- not just NATS, and not just in ATC.
The problem is, whilst it may be ok (?) to make your clerks, meter readers, customer service officers etc. etc. etc. work 4 times harder than they used to, there are some areas that just should not have a financial imperitive driving them. Invariably these involve life and limb. I'm talking about nurses/healthcare, police etc. AND ATC. If you make cash the king in these things, they go horribly wrong. Humanistly speaking. (Witness the US health system- ever tried being poor and sick in the US?)
And to me that is the rub. You are philosophically moving towards the point where money is more important than people. And that sucks.
The problem is, whilst it may be ok (?) to make your clerks, meter readers, customer service officers etc. etc. etc. work 4 times harder than they used to, there are some areas that just should not have a financial imperitive driving them. Invariably these involve life and limb. I'm talking about nurses/healthcare, police etc. AND ATC. If you make cash the king in these things, they go horribly wrong. Humanistly speaking. (Witness the US health system- ever tried being poor and sick in the US?)
And to me that is the rub. You are philosophically moving towards the point where money is more important than people. And that sucks.
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There's nothing wrong with privatisation if it's done properly, after all the airlines don't cut corners with safety and they're not state owned. Perhaps everything would have worked better if the government had done a full privatisation.
BA do not fly any ATP's. They are operated by BACitiExpress which is a wholly owned subsiduary of BA. As for the engineering report, perhaps if you had just been told that you will be getting a £6000 per annum pay cut, working hours increased and your annual holidays including bank holidays cut down to 16/year, your mind may be a little distracted when certifying log books.
Before I get shot at, I do not know the circumstances of either incident nor the individuals involved. However I am very hacked off and know from first hand experience that mistakes are made when ones mind is distracted in this way.
There for the grace of.............
Before I get shot at, I do not know the circumstances of either incident nor the individuals involved. However I am very hacked off and know from first hand experience that mistakes are made when ones mind is distracted in this way.
There for the grace of.............
This thread is NOT a discussion on the pro's and con's of Privatisation......it's a discussion of how poorly managed NATS is......and was.......and will be unless the heads of those responsible ROLL !!!!!!!!!!!!